Hello,
I am not as confused as you think I am. When I read the scripture, the things you believe in, think are in the bible, are not there. The things you think are not necessary, are indeed necessary. That is why I said that. There really is no confusion about it on my end. I may not have a PHD or Bachelor degree, but I am not stupid and can fully comprehend the differences from scripture and man's teaching.
Yet, you cannot find one scripture that states it is authorized. Just merely insult my intelligence again. You are in the positive in this debate, you must provide the proof. You came to me to discuss, not the other way around. Where is your proof that the baptist church is authorized, or any church other than Christs church, Matthew 16:18-19; Romans 16:16 for example.
This is your reason why you think there should be a baptist church?
I really do not wish to insult your intelligence as your reading comprehension is seemingly lacking on this part.
Yes, I see it is plural, however you are not grasping the fact that they are all the same. Let me explain:
Someone says, "I have seven fresh apples".
You say, "Oh, that just means he has an apple, an orange, a strawberry, a blue berry, a lemon, a lime, and a grapefruit".
I say, " Okay, this guy has seven fresh apples"
See in both sentences that you and I would say, they are both plural. The error though is that you think they represent different churches of denominations, and I think the represent the same belief churches in unity (not denominational but Christs church).
I hope you can see this error you made. The churches mentioned in Revelation are not different in beliefs/titles like Methodist and Baptist and so on, they are only different in their locations.
You still have not proved in scripture, the authority that Thomas Helwys and Roger William had to establish their church and merely reform off an already broken separated church of Catholic. You do know that "reform" is different than "restoration" right? Baptists are merely a "reform" off a set of beliefs Catholics had. The baptist church is clearly a denomination (separate and apart from the original. Baptists were not even a thing until 1600's. What is that? Over 1,500 years after the first century established churches of Christ. A brake off of the Catholic church who they themselves were established centuries after Christs church.
No, baptist have no authority to set up their own church, separate from the original that is Christs church. Therefore, it is all others who are divided, not the church of Christ.
The true church/kingdom was establish on Pentecost day in Acts 2. Matthew 16:18-19 states that Jesus tells Peter that he will build Christs church since Peter will have the keys. In Matthew 16:18-19 church and kingdom are used interchangeably. They are the same concept. Acts 2 is where Peter opens up the kingdom to everyone as Jesus promised "first to the Jews" as the bible states elsewhere, then in Acts 10 to the Gentiles. Colossians 1:13 indicates a past/present tense that the kingdom is already here. Same with Revelation 1:9. Just these two verses, of many others, are irrefutable that the kingdom/church is here already.
Lacks scripture as stated above. You are in the positive, prove this.
Show that it is not essential. I thought you would prove to me your opinion belief, however all I see are more words and not scripture. How in the world are you ever going to prove anything without scripture and just your mere words?
Acts 2:38 = (paraphrasing) "be baptized, in the name of Jesus, for remission of sins, AND you will get the Holy Spirit"
#1 Question: In this verse, do you get the Holy Spirit before or after baptism?
#2 Question: In this verse, what are you baptized for?
#3 Question: In this verse, what does the word "for" mean?
#4 Question: In this verse, what does "baptized" mean?
Galatians 3:26-27 (paraphrasing) "for all those who are baptized, they have put on Christ"
#1 Question: How do you "put on" Christ?
#2 Question: If you are not baptized, can you "put on" Christ?
#3 Question: Referring to Acts 2:38 and combining Galatians 3:26-27, can you have salvation without baptism?
Romans 6:1-4 (Paraphrase)"What then? Should I continue sinning that grace will come" - "certainly not. How can we, who DIED TO SIN (baptized, buried) live sin any longer"- "do you not know, that when you were baptized, that you put Christ on (baptized/buried)" - "Therefore, when you are baptized, you are buried into his death; that like Christ we can raise up from the dead, by the glory of our Father, walking in the newness of our lives (being a christian once baptized)"
#1 Question: Referring to Acts 2:38 and Galatians 3:26-27, does Romans 6:3 tell you that when you are baptized, you put on Christ?
#2 Question: According to Romans 6:3-4, can you be a Christian without baptism?
#3 Question: Applying the verses I mentioned previously and thinking about 1 Peter 3:21, tell me again, how is one saved?
#4 Question: If you are not baptized (Mark 16:16), are you disobeying the command Jesus set for us unto salvation (John 14:15; John 15:14)?
Lack of evidence again. Show me. You say that I am confused, I don't understand, and I am lost, then you have to do better then this to show a person you wish to set right and correct.
What does the word baptism mean in the Koine Greek?
Using that word baptism in the Koine Greek, apply it to the context of Romans 6 when it speaks of being "buried".
I did however you are not comprehending it. I will try another way.
John 3:16, probably one of the most well known verses out there.
I would like you to read John 3:15-17 please.
"15 That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the
world through him might be saved."
This scripture here is referring to us that
IF one
CHOOSES to believe in Christ, obey His will for us, they too can be saved.
How does this not relate to choice/free will?
Your going to have to do better than Ephesians 1:4-10 and Romans 8:28-30 for your predestination theory, because those scriptures there do not prove it. Well, they do if you want to twist the true intention/context of what is said.
Whether you are sure or not, we are told by scripture to spread the word non the less. Praying, that if it is God's will, to not harden the hearts of those you preach to.
You are not showing me proof of scripture. I am way too studied in scripture to be turned away by mere opinions. Reading comprehension seems to be a huge problem now days, as people twist the context (I refer to your lack of understanding in Romans 6 about baptism and buried).
Scripture. That is how. However, you are not sure because calvinist/baptist doctrines are built on quicksand. There is nothing they can prove with scripture, in context/meaning, that proves those false doctrines.
I can cherry pick all day long, verses that can prove a false point, but when you look at the entire scripture and context thereof, the cherry picking falls apart.
Not to those who use common sense. The election Calvinists talk about is hopeless for those who are chosen to be condemned.
Lets use the common sense really quick:
#1 If what calvinists say is true, then there is no need to preach to the world and all the nations, Matthew 28:18-20
#2 If what they say is true, then God created sin, forcing Adam and Eve to fall, and countless others forcibly, like we are robots to be controlled. I don't see in scripture were God did this to Adam and Eve. They had chosen to eat of the fruit by their own free will.
#3 If what they say is true, why is baptism mentioned so frequently in the bible, to save all those who seek Christ? Why even put Mark 16:16 in the bible at all?
#4 If what they say is true, a christian can sin and not need to repent of said sin because he is predestined to be saved.
We could go on and on but this should get the point across for many of the other beliefs they have relating to this.
This contradicts the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination. You seem to maybe just borderline this idea then?
Evidence please, show scripture.
No, I desire scriptural evidence as you cannot provide. The ones you did give make contradiction in scripture elsewhere therefore I conclude you do not understand them. Debating is not conflict of hate. There is a positive, ones who make claim and must therefore deliver their evidence, and the negative, that refutes those claims with evidence. One or the other is right, they cannot both be right, however both can be wrong.
Show me your evidence. You came to me, not I to you.
Hmm, I was going to say something with scripture to refute this statement, however, my above replies did this part for me. The thing now is you use "strawmen" like you don't know how to apply it. I have shown proof before and still do. I have refuted all your points. If I did add more points to the discussion, it is because they relate and I proved those too.
You clearly have no idea how to use the "strawmen" word.
Yes, I agree with this statement, however there are those who are just so blind they may never see, or at least for a long while.
This guy here explains this pretty well I'd say. I would do it myself but I am now on a time constraint and must leave soon.
Romans 8:28 – A Misunderstood Passage - What Do The Scriptures Say?
It is used for a class of people, Christians. Of course I agree that only people in Christ will be saved as per scripture, but what I am also saying is the God allows everyone the opportunity to become Christians. If they chose to, they are saved, if they don't chose to, they are not saved. It is their choice, just like Adam and Eve chosen to disobey and Abraham obey.
Citing baptist doctrine will not prove anything to me since I refute their doctrine of faith only and once saved always saved among others. There is so much information randomly provided here that we would need to cover bits at a time as it jumps to different topics. I will just leave it at that.
With "agape" love, I bid you a wonderful day.
