Having some serious doubts...help?

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

 

[Acts2:38]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Contrary to what you think, God is a loving God. There are so many verses in the bible that state how long God is willing to wait for someone to come to Him in their life time. However, it is the persons choice, not Gods. All God does is say "if you follow this path, this will happen. If you follow this other path, this will happen". Its not Gods fault, which is the premise you are posing. It is the individuals.

It is a little hard to prove the point further when you state you wont listen to verses of scripture.

Hope this helps.

Edit:

Do you believe in the gospel?

Do you believe it is the only authority?

 

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

Edit:

Do you believe in the gospel?

Do you believe it is the only authority?

I would have said yes to both last week...but know that I've properly had time to think through its contradictions I'm really starting to struggle.

For example, we know that a repented sinner will go to heaven - that's easy for me to understand. However, the bible also says non-believers will go to hell - that I struggle with since so many people are non-believers not by choice, but by circumstance.

 

[Acts2:38]

I apologize I realized I haven't answered to the full extent.

that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Actually, the bible doesn't conflict with science. Who do you think created all the elements on the chart?

You have to understand, there's people out there that purposefully try to disprove the bible. There are others who don't understand and misapply it. No one can prove that the earth is millions or billions of years old. They just can't.

Maybe the Thomas B. Warren and A.G.N Flew debate might help you since you sound like you are bordering the concept of agnostic/atheism/God.

https://video.wvbs.org/program/debate-on-the-existence-of-god-warren-flew/

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Nope, if you read the NT you know it is for ALL people.

 

[Acts2:38]

I would have said yes to both last week...but know that I've properly had time to think through its contradictions I'm really starting to struggle.

For example, we know that a repented sinner will go to heaven - that's easy for me to understand. However, the bible also says non-believers will go to hell - that I struggle with since so many people are non-believers not by choice, but by circumstance.

Okay, list some actual contradictions for me and we can work through this. The example you gave is not a contradiction.

What do you mean by "not their choice, but circumstance"?

 

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

You have to understand, there's people out there that purposefully try to disprove the bible. There are others who don't understand and misapply it. No one can prove that the earth is millions or billions of years old. They just can't.

Maybe the Thomas B. Warren and A.G.N Flew debate might help you since you sound like you are bordering the concept of agnostic/atheism/God.

https://video.wvbs.org/program/debate-on-the-existence-of-god-warren-flew/

Wholesomely agree that there will be people out there trying to disprove the Bible and those who don't understand it.

Thanks for the link also - I'll check it out.

Nope, if you read the NT you know it is for ALL people.

Also agree. So does that mean we can pick and choose from the OT?

Okay, list some actual contradictions for me and we can work through this. The example you gave is not a contradiction.

What do you mean by "not their choice, but circumstance"?

What I mean is that not every has a choice to be Christian or not. As an extreme example - will all Amazonian tribes people go to hell because they are non-believers? Or another - what if someone's personality just makes them more sceptical toward full belief but they live good and righteous lives... won't a loving God understand?

Some examples of bible verses that contradicts what I think represents good, ethical and moral Christian behaviour (I really didn't want to do this because I'm worried it will just start a barrage of trading verses back and forth with no resolution):

(1) Various Bible verses outlining how to manage slavery - so not directly condoning it.
Exodus 21:20-21
Colossians 3:22-24
Deuteronomy 20:10-15
Ephesians 6:5
1 Peter 2:13
1 Peter 2:18
1 Timothy 6:1
Leviticus 25:44-46

(2) Various verses directly condoning sexism.
Leviticus 20:10
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Deuteronomy 22:23-27
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Genesis 3:16
Genesis 19:4-8
1 Timothy 2:11-12

(3) Various verses encouraging the use of murder.
Exodus 35:2
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Leviticus 20:13
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Numbers 31:14-18
Exodus 12:28-30

 

[Dave G.]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

You could look at it another way: When you reject the Holy Bible you reject the savior. So then what are you left with ? You know this world is going to fall, it's going to end even by scientific terms under the very best of circumstances in what, 4 billion years or so it's over? .And probably uninhabitable long before that. In short you are not left with anything as promising as the Person Of Jesus Christ. No other system has a savior who came back from the grave and offers eternal life because of that act, here or elsewhere..

Now you asked what can we offer that states the bible is anything more than ancient text, that it is what it says it is, a living Word. Testimonies on how it has worked in our lives is what I could offer and thousands of other people as well.. How can it be explained, if this is not the case, that account after account of lost people living in anxiety, in lust, in thievery, addictions, depression and you put in the expletive that basically says they were miserable, are changed by coming to Christ and the bible ? Account after account of that, is the common theme. They came with a little faith and are convicted into tremendous faith with peace in their hearts where there was misery. How do you suppose that is ? And as long as we are asking questions, who else offers that besides Jesus Christ ? I'll answer it for you, nobody.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

As to the first question, I just remind myself that nowhere in the Bible is Love said to be the sole characteristic of God. God is Love; but He is also Just and Holy, so I know these characteristics have to be incorporated into my overall understanding of how God deals with humanity.

As to the second question, I deal with this by not assuming a Christian Fundamentalist position, even though my core beliefs comport with Traditional Christian beliefs. I approach Christianity and the Bible as a philosophical exploration, and I assess the various, competing viewpoints about various related topics. For instance, when I wanted to make heads or tails out the nature of Hell, I read books like Four Views on Hell, along with some other academic books, and then after assessing the evidences, I tentatively settled with the Annihilationist view--not because it is more 'humane,' but because I think it fits the hermeneutical and historical applications that need to be made to our biblical interpretations on the subject of eternal destruction.

Hope this helps, lotsandlotsofquestions.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

As to the first question, I just remind myself that nowhere in the Bible is Love said to be the sole characteristic of God. God is Love; but He is also Just and Holy, so I know these characteristics have to be incorporated into my overall understanding of how God deals with humanity.

As to the second question, I deal with this by not assuming a Christian Fundamentalist position, even though my core beliefs comport with Traditional Christian beliefs. I approach Christianity and the Bible as a philosophical exploration, and I assess the various, competing viewpoints about various related topics. For instance, when I wanted to make heads or tails out the nature of Hell, I read books like Four Views on Hell, along with some other academic books, and then after assessing the evidences, I tentatively settled with the Annihilationist view--not because it is more 'humane,' but because I think it fits the hermeneutical and historical applications that need to be made to our biblical interpretations on the subject of eternal destruction.

Hope this helps, lotsandlotsofquestions.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Thank you. I think I can really sympathise with the view of Christianity as a philosophical exploration. I am clearly just at the start of my journey and had to just lay out my main concerns as a first step.

A lot more reading to do...

 

[CrystalDragon]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

No need to apologize, I literally feel the exact same way.

 

[Acts2:38]

So does that mean we can pick and choose from the OT?

No. Christs death on the cross "blotted out the handwriting" of the OT. We are under the NT law.

will all Amazonian tribes people go to hell because they are non-believers?

Paul has been quoted as saying that the whole gospel has been preached to the whole earth. Its actually stated a few times in scripture. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't still go and preach the word.

Or another - what if someone's personality just makes them more sceptical toward full belief but they live good and righteous lives... won't a loving God understand?

Like I said, it is the individuals choice. That's why they call it faith. We haven't seen the miracles Paul and the others did, but the bible testifies what happened.

Edit: Also, God sent His Son and Christ died for all. God created everything. Logically thinking without scripture in mind is it not fair to Him that you obey His will?

No one has been able to find a contradiction in the bible. Anyone that says they have, has been found wrong. The bible also has held up to historical accuracy as well.

 

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

You could look at it another way: When you reject the Holy Bible you reject the savior. So then what are you left with ? You know this world is going to fall, it's going to end even by scientific terms under the very best of circumstances in what, 4 billion years or so it's over? .And probably uninhabitable long before that. In short you are not left with anything as promising as the Person Of Jesus Christ. No other system has a savior who came back from the grave and offers eternal life because of that act, here or elsewhere..

Sorry but I'm not sure how this helps me. Yes, ideally all you said is true but I am struggling with believing for the sake of believing.

Now you asked what can we offer that states the bible is anything more than ancient text, that it is what it says it is, a living Word. Testimonies on how it has worked in our lives is what I could offer and thousands of other people as well.. How can it be explained, if this is not the case, that account after account of lost people living in anxiety, in lust, in thievery, addictions, depression and you put in the expletive that basically says they were miserable, are changed by coming to Christ and the bible ? Account after account of that, is the common theme. They came with a little faith and are convicted into tremendous faith with peace in their hearts where there was misery. How do you suppose that is ? And as long as we are asking questions, who else offers that besides Jesus Christ ? I'll answer it for you, nobody.

Again, yes, ideally this is true and Jesus Christ is the only answer for millions of people changing their lives for the better. But arguably there'd be millions of examples of people in anxiety, lust, thievery, additions and depression who have benefited from other religions too (rightly or wrongly).

Sorry just don't think it helps my circumstance.

 

[lotsandlotsofquestions]

No. Christs death on the cross "blotted out the handwriting" of the OT. We are under the NT law.



Paul has been quoted as saying that the whole gospel has been preached to the whole earth. Its actually stated a few times in scripture. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't still go and preach the word.



Like I said, it is the individuals choice. That's why they call it faith. We haven't seen the miracles Paul and the others did, but the bible testifies what happened.

No one has been able to find a contradiction in the bible. Anyone that says they have, has been found wrong. The bible also has held up to historical accuracy as well.

Ok I'll try and make it a bit more direct.

Under your / our / the mainstream understanding of Christianity:

Will a righteous man from the Amazon jungle who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a righteous woman from North Korea who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a young, innocent child who's mind was polluted unwillingly by his / her family and difficult upbringing go to hell?
Would someone who was on the path to righteousness but had their life cut short (e.g. by an accident) go to hell?

This is what I mean by circumstance. I feel I could so easily have been in these positions and be cast to an eternity of damnation :S

 

[Acts2:38]

Ok I'll try and make it a bit more direct.

Under your / our / the mainstream understanding of Christianity:

Will a righteous man from the Amazon jungle who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a righteous woman from North Korea who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a young, innocent child who's mind was polluted unwillingly by his / her family and difficult upbringing go to hell?
Would someone who was on the path to righteousness but had their life cut short (e.g. by an accident) go to hell?

This is what I mean by circumstance. I feel I could so easily have been in these positions and be cast to an eternity of damnation :S

I am going to a bible study now. I will get back to this so dont think I am blowing you off. To be continued....

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

No one can live a righteous life out side of Christ.
Every One will have had MANY opportunities to accept Christ.

How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION?

First God sends no one to hell. They do that on their own by rejecting Christ.
Scripture tells us in 2Peter3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman.

That is False.
It is Gods Most Holy Word to ALL that would hear.

Also think about this.....the Most Holy Written Word of God is hidden from outsiders or those in the darkness.
At best all you can understand is through carnal human understanding.....HOWEVER for those who are born of incorruptible seed, the ever living Word of God......The Truth and Understanding is given unto them.

Blessings
FCJ

 

[Jesus4Ever]

First off, one can only have righteousness through Christ. No one can find the path to righteousness except through Him.

Second...perhaps its because I have yet to finish the bible, but where does it say how old the Earth is?

Third, did you ever in your life feel God's love or had a sign from God?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Will a righteous man from the Amazon jungle who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a righteous woman from North Korea who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?

All will hear the Gospel before Jesus comes back.
What you are doing is looking for loop holes or ways to prove you don't need to accept Christ.

Let me ask you this question.
Would God Love you and be a Good judge if you died right now without Christ and was judged to hell?

Don't be to quick to answer because it obvious that you know enough to know about Jesus and the Father but you are not willing to accept this. That's Your Choice and it is the same for many who have had many opportunities to accept Christ but refused.

Think about that.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[mcarmichael]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

That's a very Evangelical understanding of eternal judgement. However I would remind you of our Lord's words " For to him who has been given much, shall much be expected."

 

[mcarmichael]

For example, it is stated explicitly that the antichrist shall be thrown into hell in the flesh. I don't remember if anyone else is spoken of that way, but the point is that that seems peculiar.

Anyway, according to the Enochian tradition there are three places for the damned. You figure it out.

 

[Serving Zion]

the bible also says non-believers will go to hell - that I struggle with since so many people are non-believers not by choice, but by circumstance.

It doesn't really sound like the justice that is taught by The Holy Spirit. Could you show us the scriptures you have in mind? Matthew 25:31-46 describes the judgement being about our actions toward others (ie: love) and doesn't even mention that someone is condemned or acquitted for their beliefs alone.