Having some serious doubts...help?

[SkyWriting]

Hades -- we learn in this account more about Hades, which we can see is a place of suffering, torment, of paying for one's sins -- as the rich man in this account is paying for ignoring Lazarus begging in need.

Yes, but he is also having a conversation about his problems.

If he was on a flaming grill, conversation would not be as civil.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, but he is also having a conversation about his problems.

If he was on a flaming grill, conversation would not be as civil.

Indeed, there is a place called Hades, and there is in Christ's account a kind of consciousness there, and a degree of suffering, and it is not the lake of fire, which is only after the day of judgement.

 

[SkyWriting]

I have a gnat tormenting me at this very moment.

The term is so broad, we can only hope to get some idea of what it means when put with other Scripture on Hell.

My whole point is before the OP says God is bad for being unfair with this terrible Hell he speaks of, we need to be sure it is that terrible, and define exactly what Hell is, and from what I've gathered over the years, God has intentionally made it to where we cannot pinpoint what exactly it entails.
.

God does not wish to frighten you.

 

[SkyWriting]

Indeed, there is a place called Hades, and there is in Christ's account a kind of consciousness there, and a degree of suffering, and it is not the lake of fire, which is only after the day of judgement.

I'm sure it's not a lot of things. That's a long list.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm sure that is much worse than if it was torturing you.

As am I, but my point is, it can go so far in either direction, we simply don't know. My concern comes from the "burning skin" for eternity that was taught for so long, and though it may be more than a gnat, I think it's much less than that.

We cannot judge God unfair until we know for certain his so-called unfair actions.

 

[SkyWriting]

As am I, but my point is, it can go so far in either direction, we simply don't know. My concern comes from the "burning skin" for eternity that was taught for so long, and though it may be more than a gnat, I think it's much less than that.

We cannot judge God unfair until we know for certain his so-called unfair actions.

I don't recall any skin burning.
I just grabbed a scalding piece of
metal today at work.
Physical pain is pretty temporary.
Even the nerve endings can only take so much.

 

[Kenny'sID]

God does not wish to frighten you.

God absolutely wishes to frighten everyone with Hell...why else do you think it's threatened so many times in the bible?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I don't recall any skin burning.

Many preachers of the past have tried to put that out there...seems to me it's hard to miss, but if you did, oh well.

 

[SkyWriting]

Many preachers of the past have tried to put that out there...seems to me it's hard to miss, but if you did, oh well.

I'm sure you misheard.

Likely they quited correctly.

People forget that they have no bodies after death.

7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[RaymondG]

Many preachers of the past have tried to put that out there...seems to me it's hard to miss, but if you did, oh well.

Where in the bible do you see the creation of Hell? Everywhere Heaven is compared or contrasted, it is with the earth "On earth as it is in heaven," "loose in heaven, loosed on earth," "Set treasures in heaven, not on earth" " In the beginning,....created heavens and the earth"

When do you feel hell was made? Or could earth be the hell referred to?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Where in the bible do you see the creation of Hell? Everywhere Heaven is compared or contrasted, it is with the earth "On earth as it is in heaven," "loose in heaven, loosed on earth," "Set treasures in heaven, not on earth" " In the beginning,....created heavens and the earth"

When do you feel hell was made? Or could earth be the hell referred to?

Why do I need to see the creation of Hell, or know when it was made?

So you are saying there is no fire and brimstone Hell? I'd say that's taking things a bit far in the opposite direction of my thoughts on the matter.

When you say "earth" could be the hell referred to, are you saying it's the conventional Hell, but located on earth, or that this is Hell now?

One thing I am certain of, there is a not so pleasant place set aside for the wicked, and pretending it's not there could be a costly mistake.

 

[RaymondG]

Why do I need to see the creation of Hell, or know when it was made?

So you are saying there is no fire and brimstone Hell? I'd say that's taking things a bit far in the opposite direction of my thoughts on the matter.

When you say "earth" could be the hell referred to, are you saying it's the conventional Hell, but located on earth, or that this is Hell now?

One thing I am certain of, there is a not so pleasant place set aside for the wicked, and pretending it's not there could be a costly mistake.

Im asking questions, not making any statements. If hell was never created in the bible, why are you so sure it exist? I personally, dont need a torture chamber, or pearly gates to serve God.....Serving God is my duty.....so whatever i believe about hell wont cost me anything because it is not part of my plan for salvation (avoidance of it, that is).

Im just saying....only Earth was created outside of heaven, and must of the things that is described as happening in hell happens now. I weep when something bad happens. I gnash my teeth when I get insulted in this forum. I hid, sometimes, from the flames of the sun.. If I treat you wrong.....i expected to pay for it now...etc....

And yes, Im talking about this place now...not some place under the ground.

Just thoughts....nothing to be taken serious......especially if you need it to want to serve God.....by all means, believe in it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Im asking questions, not making any statements. If hell was never created in the bible, why are you so sure it exist? I personally, dont need a torture chamber, or pearly gates to serve God.....Serving God is my duty.....so whatever i believe about hell wont cost me anything because it is not part of my plan for salvation (avoidance of it, that is).

And I'm asking questions about your questions.

I'm sure it exists because the bible says it exists. Forgetting that one important proponent, makes me think you don't wan to belive the obvious for some reason.

I've seen others here make the same claim about why they serve God, but I will certainly always wonder if they are being honest with themselves

Just thoughts....nothing to be taken serious......especially if you need it to want to serve God.....by all means, believe in it.

There it is again, you must be such a naturally good person in your mind, again...I wonder. And though you somehow think I'm taking what you say too seriously or as you saying it's fact, I am not...I'm well aware this is a simple conversation that entails could be's. But at the same time, one often believes their could be's...just saying they aren't biblical and I do not.

.

 

[RaymondG]

When light enters, darkness disappears.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You seem to have avoided all of the inquiries about your hell to discuss me personally or what you think i think about myself. This shows me you are all out of man's wisdom and therefore need to try to attack people. You say that a place exist that was never created.....and that isnt could be referring to the things that were created....because your whole belief system fails unless you create this place..... doesnt seem like a solid foundation to me.

You say you love God.....but you also fear a hell....which you believe is not one of the places created in the beginning.... If I had enough time on my hands, I would wonder whether you are being honest with yourself.......but i dont have the time...

Hey dude, whatever it takes for you to believe as you want, biblical or not, is fine with me.

I did think it funny all the "you's" in your post there, as you do precisely what you accuse me of doing.

 

[KariRose]

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation.

God is good. If He/ She is good, then He/ She is fair. He is also very explicit that we humans do not get to judge who does and does not go, except that he warns us that we are accountable and need savation and forgiveness. God knows the HEART. We are responsible for the light that we have been shown. I have faith that the creator of the universe is big enough to know what people are accountable for. Also, love covers over a multitude of sins. There are near death experiences in other countries where they may not know God, and yet a bright white figure leads them, exuding comfort and love. I encourage you to research this world-wide phenomenon. Top 7 Bible Verses About Accountability/

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression?

I really don't have a perfect answer. However I know that God reaches out to us humans through Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law.

Also, as a biologist (degree, experience and future teacher), I get that how the Earth came to be this way is confusing. I don't quite understand macro-evolution, or exactly how old the Earth is. But I do know that modern science itself contains many mysteries and loop-holes. For one, matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, and yet the whole world is supposed to have been created from an ultra-dense primeval atom and quantum foam that blinked in and out of existence. Another theory is two dimensions intersected like a bubble. But whence came the dimensions or the matter and energy and gravity and elements?

Lastly...

"I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???"

Yeah, kind of strange when you think about it. And yet, Jesus is the most influential human/ divine person that ever lived. It is the only religion where salvation is a gift, not something you work for (though faith without works is dead...). In Islam, one does not have assurance of salvation until death. The religion was created in 622 ad, and Mohammed was trying to convert the Jews of Medina, so he used the Old Testament. He tried to commit suicide several times after being thrown against the cave of Hara by a violent being who was supposed to be giving him messages from God. This does not sound like an angel to me... Also Allah is listed several times as the greatest trickster/ deceiver, etc.

Remember that there are a lot of Christians in this world, including doctors, scientists, engineers, theoreticists. You are not the first to ask these questions, and you will not be the last. My answer may not be perfect, but I encourage you to keep seeking and reading.

 

[geiroffenberg]

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation.

That is a pop-modern version of a christian doctrine, but reality is not like that.

Paul deals with this topic in the book of romans in a very brilliant way, the first two chapters talks about the state of man withotu christ. the gospel of christ comes in halfway in chapter 3. In chapter 2 it is said that every man, jew or gentile, have the law. jews of course have it written, but every gentile is also a lwa by themselves ebcause they have the law written in their hears and the conscien tesifies about it, and this is what the judgement will be by, either for good or evil. Christian doctrine say every man that is not a christian will be danmed in the judgement, and everyone who is a christian will go to heaven. But paul in this context are not at all talking about christians or believers in christ at all, he is talking about the general judgement of all men. ANd he does NOT AT ALL say all wil go to hell, but they will all be judged accoprding to their hearts, and justly.

Tru gospel doctrine is that any man in christ is already judged on the cross, and will never again come before judgement. There are multitudes of scriptures on this. But who ever say that only christians makes it in the final judgement has totally mis understood the gospel. True belivers in christ is, according to the biblwe, already risen from the dead and seated in heaven with christ, there is no more judgement for them. Its the nations that will be judged. This is what f inst matt 25 judgement is all about, where some will go to eternal life and others to eternal pain. The sheep on the left the goats on the rigth etc. There are NO true belivers in these groups....they are the "saints" taht is coming with him becaue they are in christ and no judgemetn will ever come upon them again, that is thr only true understanding of the parable.

So your question is based upon a very bad udnerstanding of the bible, and youre not to be blamed for it, because it has been spread by unknowledgable people. I was one of them so....

 

[geiroffenberg]

That is a pop-modern version of a christian doctrine, but reality is not like that.

Paul deals with this topic in the book of romans in a very brilliant way, the first two chapters talks about the state of man withotu christ. the gospel of christ comes in halfway in chapter 3. In chapter 2 it is said that every man, jew or gentile, have the law. jews of course have it written, but every gentile is also a lwa by themselves ebcause they have the law written in their hears and the conscien tesifies about it, and this is what the judgement will be by, either for good or evil. Christian doctrine say every man that is not a christian will be danmed in the judgement, and everyone who is a christian will go to heaven. But paul in this context are not at all talking about christians or believers in christ at all, he is talking about the general judgement of all men. ANd he does NOT AT ALL say all wil go to hell, but they will all be judged accoprding to their hearts, and justly.

Tru gospel doctrine is that any man in christ is already judged on the cross, and will never again come before judgement. There are multitudes of scriptures on this. But who ever say that only christians makes it in the final judgement has totally mis understood the gospel. True belivers in christ is, according to the biblwe, already risen from the dead and seated in heaven with christ, there is no more judgement for them. Its the nations that will be judged. This is what f inst matt 25 judgement is all about, where some will go to eternal life and others to eternal pain. The sheep on the left the goats on the rigth etc. There are NO true belivers in these groups....they are the "saints" taht is coming with him becaue they are in christ and no judgemetn will ever come upon them again, that is thr only true understanding of the parable.

So your question is based upon a very bad udnerstanding of the bible, and youre not to be blamed for it, because it has been spread by unknowledgable people. I was one of them so....

If this question still bothers you, i reccomend you read sadhu sunder singhs vision of hell where it is explained clearly how sinners in hell can not possible be taken to heaven even though god would want them to repent and be saved, it will clear up all this confusion.

 

[geiroffenberg]

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

It is not wrong to read other scriptures, as they may contain lots of truths similar to bible. The bible itself recommends other books outside the bible, like jashers book and the book of enoch etc. Also, many traditions not directly judeo-christians ARE teaching basic spiritual truths that is very close to, and sometimes exactly like, the gospel. The bible mentions melchisedeks f.inst, a gentile priest that was so right on that jesus today is said to be of HIS preisthood, and not the jewish priesthood! The book of hebrews explains that melchisedeks priesthood is a higher priethood than the jewish!! how is that for other religions not being wrong???
ALso, jetro, the guy who came and helped moses with some administration problems in israel, was a midianite, a gentile, and the bible itself says he was a priest for - not a false god - but for the most high god, jehova! And he is the foudner of the druser religion who has thousands of followers even today (but it has probably more legalsitic now than 3000 yeas ago!)
So now we can see that the bible doesnt say it is exclusive to truth, but since god incarnated as a jewish rabbi and made sure those scriptures serves the gospel mroe directly, it is the greatest source to truth we have today.

When it comes to the quran, it is a little different matter, because it is a book written more as a reaction against the bible, as many veres in quran MANY is written only to contradict the old testament, and the gospel of jesus, describing how the death of crhist was false and that he is not the son of god etc etc, so that of course can not be in the category of texts supporting truth.

lasty, a comment about this: "I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman."

not so fast! Theres a lot of contributers to the 66 books of the bible by authoers spanning thousands of years on earth! Only the book of psalms have 150 chapters written by many different kings, priests and prophets.
Concider solomon. When he was king, his nations was the richest on earth! kings and queens came from all over to look at all his wealth. He wrote a cpl of books in there! He wasnt some tribesman lol!
so...Not a little group of tribesmen that came together lol!
Some of them were kings, some of them highly trained theologians and citizens of
Rome (the guy who wrote 14 books of the new testament was a roman) and everything in between.

 

[BukiRob]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

I think it is VERY important to STUDY SCRIPTURE for yourself and not merely follow what is being taught by your priest/pastor. Eternal= punishment is permanent/forever. I do NOT believe in the doctrine of conscious burning without end. Man is MORTAL. He is NOT IMMORTAL apart from the immortality that we must put on at the resurrection should one die before the Messiah returns for his bride. The second point, in the Revelation, we are plainly told that those who rejected Messiah will be cast into the lake of fire and this is called the SECOND DEATH. No one who has ever lived (apart from Messiah) has had conscious awareness dead, is dead. As David says "who will praise you from Sheol (grave)? In Ecclesiastes, we are told " The dead know NOTHING."

There is literally no evidence I have seen that supports that you go anywhere except the grave when you die. When Yeshua went to Martha after Lazarus had died and she was mourning him asking Yeshua why he tarried... Yeshua did NOT tell Martha that Lazarus was in Heaven or Paradise.... He said do you believe Lazarus will live again... her answer was YES at the Ressurection.

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Nowhere is murder condoned... dont have a clue as to why you believe that. Sexism? More modern gobbly gook. YOu make a VERY flawed assumption based upon relative moralism... you ASSUME that modern moralistic views are teh most correct view....[/quote]

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Go and study gematria and examine some of the equal distance letter bible code. No other book on earth has this phenomena in this much detail as that...