Haulocaust Question

[RDKirk]

Question: Throughout history God has favored the Jews (in the OT), but punished them when they turned away from him. Then, he would give them another chance. Was the haulocaust in WW2 another one of the punishments? It lead to the revival of Israel. However, I need more information because I’m trying to make sense of this. Unless I know what I’m talking about, I definitely don’t want to start talking about this with people I know (especially non-believers) due to the backlash that could ensue, getting people angry and pulling farther away from God.

Why would you start talking about it?

If you are gifted, trained, and commissioned to be an evangelist, stick to the gospel.

 

[RDKirk]

The Christian victims definitely come to mind. Countless clergy, particularly in Poland, were condemned to death. Heck, my own patron saint was martyred by the Nazis for aiding Jews and others.

Yes. So basically, the Holocaust was this:

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” -- Luke 13

The Holocaust did not happen to punish Jews for their sin. The Holocaust happened because this is a fallen world, and stuff happens in a fallen world.

Bad stuff happens to good people, good stuff happens to bad people. That's because it's a fallen world and there is no justice in a fallen world.

If good stuff only happened to good people, and bad stuff only happened to bad people, that would be a just world, not a fallen world.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It could have been.

God is sovereign over all things and He uses all things throughout all of history for His glory and our good.

Actually, the Bible says His will is NOT DONE on the earth which is why Jesus told us to pray it would. God is sovereign does not mean God is micromanaging the world.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Question: Throughout history God has favored the Jews (in the OT), but punished them when they turned away from him. Then, he would give them another chance. Was the haulocaust in WW2 another one of the punishments? It lead to the revival of Israel. However, I need more information because I’m trying to make sense of this. Unless I know what I’m talking about, I definitely don’t want to start talking about this with people I know (especially non-believers) due to the backlash that could ensue, getting people angry and pulling farther away from God.

The history of the Jews being the special people of GOd ended in 70AD. Now they are not more special than the Poles or Finns or Spanish or Turkish. The covenant with God has ended and God has divorced them for their unfaithfulness and crucifiying the Son of God. Now they are as the rest of humanity, no more but no less.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The history of the Jews being the special people of GOd ended in 70AD. Now they are not more special than the Poles or Finns or Spanish or Turkish. The covenant with God has ended and God has divorced them for their unfaithfulness and crucifiying the Son of God. Now they are as the rest of humanity, no more but no less.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 ...Poles or Finns or Spanish or Turkish are grafted in

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jeremiah 31:31–34 ...Poles or Finns or Spanish or Turkish are grafted in

Grafted into Jesus, not Judiasm. The Jews are branches same as the rest of the world, those who will. THe vine is Jesus.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Grafted into Jesus, not Judiasm. The Jews are branches same as the rest of the world, those who will. THe vine is Jesus.

"Christianity" is the continuation of true Judaism.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"Christianity" is the continuation of true Judaism.

Not at all. The new wine was not put into the old wineskins. Not even the Jews think the Christians are Jews. Judiasm is the old covenant and it ended. We are in the new covenant. The NT is full of this.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Not even the Jews think the Christians are Jews.

is that supposed to convince me?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Grafted into Jesus, not Judiasm. The Jews are branches same as the rest of the world, those who will. THe vine is Jesus.

grafted into Israel...read Romans 11

 

[Dorothy Mae]

grafted into Israel...read Romans 11

Where do you think it says this? Jesus said HE is the vine and we are the branches. Paul talked about the Israel being broken off. Pretty odd if Israel is the vine.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

is that supposed to convince me?

Well no Christians think this. No Jews think this. Look at the Christians and we don’t practice what Israel did at all. So you are alone in this view.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Where do you think it says this? Jesus said HE is the vine and we are the branches. Paul talked about the Israel being broken off. Pretty odd if Israel is the vine.

2 different things...it is VERY evident that Paul is speaking of the olive tree...Israel. The wild are gentiles...the cultivated are Jews.

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well no Christians think this. No Jews think this. Look at the Christians and we don’t practice what Israel did at all. So you are alone in this view.

Well I see you know very little and just wish to argue...so Shalom!

 

[mmksparbud]

Then the nation of Israel will no longer exist. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world.

Israel will exist forever, as promised--as will Jerusalem--just in a different way.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

2 different things...it is VERY evident that Paul is speaking of the olive tree...Israel. The wild are gentiles...the cultivated are Jews.

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The wild branches are the Gentiles. The natural BRANCHES are Israel. The vine is Jesus. The natural BRANCHES. Notice the natural BRANCHES can be AGAIN grafted into the vine. The natural BRANCHES cannot be simultaneously the vine and the branches. And wild branches are not grafted into other branches but the vine. These verses do not support your position.

Well I see you know very little and just wish to argue...so Shalom!

I see that you use the ad hominem argument when losing. Probably because you have no basis for your position. Adieu

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I always find it amazing when people ignore Jesus’ statement and the facts born out in modern Israel, that the Kingdom of God has been taken away from the Jews and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The wild branches are the Gentiles. The natural BRANCHES are Israel. The vine is Jesus. The natural BRANCHES. Notice the natural BRANCHES can be AGAIN grafted into the vine. The natural BRANCHES cannot be simultaneously the vine and the wild branches. And wild branches are not grafted into other branches but the vine. These verses do not support your position.
I see that you use the ad hominem argument when losing. Probably because you have no basis for your position. Adieu

It is only ad hominem if it is not true and in this case it is. Read it again...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I always find it amazing when people ignore Jesus’ statement and the facts born out in modern Israel, that the Kingdom of God has been taken away from the Jews and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof.

Are you talking to yourself? The modern Israel is a secular Nation. The Jews there are RABBINIC Jews

 

[Dave L]

Israel will exist forever, as promised--as will Jerusalem--just in a different way.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

But, only believers in Christ are Israel.