Has this gone too far?

[ArmyMatt]

I believe you are referring to the end of Luke. Note that there were two criminals hanging next to Jesus and Jesus only opened the doors of Paradise to the criminal who recognized his own sin and confessed to it, not to the other unrepentant criminal. And this backs my point of view, not the standard modern Christian point of view.

In any case the whole idea of forgiving a person but keeping him in jail makes no sense to me. It seems like hypocrisy, something Jesus repeatedly condemned. If you forgive someone, then your actions should show this. God explained the whole idea of repentance and forgiveness very clearly in Ezekiel 33:7-20.

no because Christ did not say anything negative toward the just punishment to the thief. and He says, when I was in jail, ye visited Me. not when I was in jail you protested and tried to spring Me.

 

[fschmidt]

no because Christ did not say anything negative toward the just punishment to the thief. and He says, when I was in jail, ye visited Me. not when I was in jail you protested and tried to spring Me.

Of course, Jesus was practical. He knew what is possible and what isn't possible. This is another (of many) contrasts between Jesus and Christians.

By the way, what you are referring to here, Matthew 25, is yet another example supporting my view. Here Jesus talks about separating the sheep from the goats, meaning separating the good from the bad. This is another example of sound judgment based on righteousness versus sin. Clearly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot would join the goats.

And you really didn't address my last point. Why did Jesus only forgive one of the two criminals? Could it be that Jesus understood God's will as expressed in the Old Testament that forgiveness is only earned by those who repent?

 

[Dorothea]

If you can't forgive your neighbor, you aren't going to be forgiven by your Father in heaven. That's pretty straight forward. Forgiveness is a key Christian belief, as well as repentance. I don't know if you realize that the eye for an eye is not a Christian belief. It is in other religions, but not Christianity.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Muslims are pretty good at it from what I've seen...

don't know if you realize that the eye for an eye is not a Christian belief. It is in other religions, but not Christianity.

 

[Dorothea]

The Muslims are pretty good at it from what I've seen...

 

[gracefullamb]

And you really didn't address my last point. Why did Jesus only forgive one of the two criminals? Could it be that Jesus understood God's will as expressed in the Old Testament that forgiveness is only earned by those who repent?

The one mocked Jesus being the Lord the other recognized Jesus was the Lord and Savior. He rebuked the other and then asked that Jesus remember him in his Kingdom.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Of course, Jesus was practical. He knew what is possible and what isn't possible. This is another (of many) contrasts between Jesus and Christians.

By the way, what you are referring to here, Matthew 25, is yet another example supporting my view. Here Jesus talks about separating the sheep from the goats, meaning separating the good from the bad. This is another example of sound judgment based on righteousness versus sin. Clearly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot would join the goats.

And you really didn't address my last point. Why did Jesus only forgive one of the two criminals? Could it be that Jesus understood God's will as expressed in the Old Testament that forgiveness is only earned by those who repent?

how is it that when we forgive, but don't set folks free you say that hypocritical. Christ does the same thing, and He is practical. this does not prove your point at all.

you don't know where [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot would fall because you cannot see into their hearts. that judgment, on their eternal state, is for God and God alone. so clearly, only God, not you or me, can say whether they are sheep or goats.

Christ forgave both criminals. only one repented, so only one accepted the forgiveness He offered.

 

[gracefullamb]

Us offering forgiveness is not dictated by if the person has repented and asked for it. Nor should it be, I am not sure how that can even be considered true forgiveness if their conditions that must be met before we offer it to another that has offended us. For that matter forgiveness doesn't in anyway absolve a person from facing the consequences of their sins. Part of being repented is facing the consequences of what have done and not trying to weasel are way out of that, but that should have not bearing on those offended offering their forgiveness.

 

[rusmeister]

Us offering forgiveness is not dictated by if the person has repented and asked for it. Nor should it be, I am not sure how that can even be considered true forgiveness if their conditions that must be met before we offer it to another that has offended us. For that matter forgiveness doesn't in anyway absolve a person from facing the consequences of their sins. Part of being repented is facing the consequences of what have done and not trying to weasel are way out of that, but that should have not bearing on those offended offering their forgiveness.

This is where the Church in Russia has completely failed to officially express our understanding of forgiveness. By saying nothing, they let the media define the terms and express everything radically wrongly.

It's so simple. We forgive. But they still need to repent.

Since the punishment has been the wrong punishment, it has had the effect of hardening hearts.

 

[fschmidt]

how is it that when we forgive, but don't set folks free you say that hypocritical. Christ does the same thing, and He is practical. this does not prove your point at all.

I think Jesus would have set both himself and the one other criminal free if he could have. Of course I am taking the non-Christian view that he was human and limited in what he could do.

you don't know where [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot would fall because you cannot see into their hearts. that judgment, on their eternal state, is for God and God alone. so clearly, only God, not you or me, can say whether they are sheep or goats.

I can say that they are goats, and I may well be wrong. We humans are imperfect, we just have to do our best at whatever we try to do, including judgment.

Christ forgave both criminals. only one repented, so only one accepted the forgiveness He offered.

I believe in Jesus, not Christ, so I can't really respond to this except to say that I don't see any evidence that Jesus forgave both criminals.

Finally I have a question for you. Why is it that the Russian Orthodox Church seems to be in agreement with me on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot, while everyone else here seems to disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church? I am not Christian, so you have a good case that I may misunderstand something. But the Russian Orthodox Church probably understands Christianity as well, if not better, than anyone on this forum, and yet they do what I think is right. Could the reason be that members of this forum are Americans and Americans are almost universally infected, to some degree, with liberalism?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Common sense that you don't let a person out into the public again for the safety of the public. It's a Christian tenet - forgiveness and repentance.

Forgiveness and repentance does lead to eventual trust, as is the case with criminals who reformed and were given another chance. Paul had the same thing

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think Jesus would have set both himself and the one other criminal free if he could have. Of course I am taking the non-Christian view that he was human and limited in what he could do.


I can say that they are goats, and I may well be wrong. We humans are imperfect, we just have to do our best at whatever we try to do, including judgment.


I believe in Jesus, not Christ, so I can't really respond to this except to say that I don't see any evidence that Jesus forgave both criminals.

Finally I have a question for you. Why is it that the Russian Orthodox Church seems to be in agreement with me on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot, while everyone else here seems to disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church? I am not Christian, so you have a good case that I may misunderstand something. But the Russian Orthodox Church probably understands Christianity as well, if not better, than anyone on this forum, and yet they do what I think is right. Could the reason be that members of this forum are Americans and Americans are almost universally infected, to some degree, with liberalism?

no you can't say they are goats, because that's at the Final Judgment which has not happened yet. you also cannot say they are sheep. and Christ says in the Passion account that He can set Himself free. He tells Pilate what He can do if He would just ask of His Father.

Christ forgave everyone when He was on the Cross. Father forgive them, they know not what they do was extended to the mockers as well as those who nailed Him on the Cross.

how do you agree with the Russian Orthodox Church?

 

[rusmeister]

I think Jesus would have set both himself and the one other criminal free if he could have. Of course I am taking the non-Christian view that he was human and limited in what he could do.


I can say that they are goats, and I may well be wrong. We humans are imperfect, we just have to do our best at whatever we try to do, including judgment.


I believe in Jesus, not Christ, so I can't really respond to this except to say that I don't see any evidence that Jesus forgave both criminals.

Finally I have a question for you. Why is it that the Russian Orthodox Church seems to be in agreement with me on [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot, while everyone else here seems to disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church? I am not Christian, so you have a good case that I may misunderstand something. But the Russian Orthodox Church probably understands Christianity as well, if not better, than anyone on this forum, and yet they do what I think is right. Could the reason be that members of this forum are Americans and Americans are almost universally infected, to some degree, with liberalism?

The Russian Orthodox Church does not equal its top leadership. They are not one and the same. I do think that leadership to have erred seriously on this, and a few other issues. But the Church is us, by which I mean everyone in it, living and dead. Absolutely all of the laity and clergy I know think that the government actions are wrong.

You appear to be provoking us. please remember that you are a guest in our main forum. If you wish to debate, start a thread in our St Justin's sub-forum intended specifically for disagreement with us.

 

[Rhamiel]

this is horrible!
does anyone have a translation of the song that they preformed?
like I have only read a little about this, but they are a "punk band"
was the song vulgar?

did they disrupt Divine Liturgy?

 

[fschmidt]

this is horrible!
does anyone have a translation of the song that they preformed?
like I have only read a little about this, but they are a "punk band"
was the song vulgar?

did they disrupt Divine Liturgy?

Here you go:
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot-Punk Prayer.mp4 - YouTube
Go to the video on YouTube and you will find the translation below the video.

 

[fschmidt]

no you can't say they are goats, because that's at the Final Judgment which has not happened yet. you also cannot say they are sheep. and Christ says in the Passion account that He can set Himself free. He tells Pilate what He can do if He would just ask of His Father.

What is "the Passion account"? As for goats, maybe you got me on a technicality. What I mean is that I do judge immoral behavior and condemn people for it, just as the Russian Orthodox Church seems to have done.

how do you agree with the Russian Orthodox Church?

I agree that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot should serve jail time.

 

[fschmidt]

The Russian Orthodox Church does not equal its top leadership. They are not one and the same. I do think that leadership to have erred seriously on this, and a few other issues. But the Church is us, by which I mean everyone in it, living and dead. Absolutely all of the laity and clergy I know think that the government actions are wrong.

The Russian people are almost evenly divided on this issue, and I assume most of those against [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot are laity of the Russian Orthodox Church. I assume the laity and clergy that you know are Americans which would explain their views.

You appear to be provoking us. please remember that you are a guest in our main forum. If you wish to debate, start a thread in our St Justin's sub-forum intended specifically for disagreement with us.

If the moderators consider my posts here inappropriate, please move them to St Justin's sub-forum and I will restrict my posts to there.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is "the Passion account"? As for goats, maybe you got me on a technicality. What I mean is that I do judge immoral behavior and condemn people for it, just as the Russian Orthodox Church seems to have done.


I agree that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot should serve jail time.

no, the Russian Church might judge an action, but not a person. every person is in God's image. the Orthodox Church does not condemn anyone.

and by the Passion account, I mean the last week of Christ's life before the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[Rhamiel]

they were disrespectful, but they were in jail for 6 months even before the trial started
this is much too much
a fine, probation, sure great whatever
half a year before they even get a trial?
no no no

 

[fschmidt]

no, the Russian Church might judge an action, but not a person. every person is in God's image. the Orthodox Church does not condemn anyone.

Maybe the problem is semantics. If I hire someone for a job, I am judging them. Judgment just means evaluating someone. In the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot case, I am evaluating them morally. To condemn just means to judge someone as immoral. By this definition, I condemn [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot. Are you using these words in the same way that I am?

and by the Passion account, I mean the last week of Christ's life before the crucifixion and resurrection.

Where in the Passion account does Jesus say that he can set himself free?

And returning to the practical question that concerns me, what do you think is a fair punishment for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot? I am very disappointed to see Christians failing to stand up to defend their religion. If this had happened at a Mosque or Orthodox Synagogue, these women would have been beaten unconscious right then and there which would have been the appropriate response.