Has there always been an image to worship or not worship, a mark to take or not to take?

5thKingdom

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You might have a valid case if Revelation 20:4 had only said this----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God ;


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls [not the bodies] of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


When we see some Saints did not worship the Beast...
were those Saints in the THIRD Beast or the FOURTH?


If you understood the meaning of the term "Beast",
if you could DEFINE the word, then you would understand:


the CONTEXT could be Saints in the Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]
OR were those Saints in the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast) AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?
You see... THAT is the question you must answer.


I suggest you begin by working on the definition of "Beast"...
tell me sir, HOW MANY "Beasts" arise on earth?


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST shall be the FOURTH KINGDOM upon earth,
which shall be diverse [different] from all [the previous three] Kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


/
 
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TribulationSigns

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You don't know where I'm coming from then. I might be a Premil, but I'm not a Dispensational Premil.

I am familiar with all camps of premillennialism.

I have news for you. I don't take any of these things in a literal sense involving the 2 beasts in Revelation 13, including the image and the mark, though it is possible the mark might be literal, thus I don't rule that possibility out .

No the mark of the beast will not be literal. The people of the congregation are already being marked by the second beast (body of false prophets and christs).


A) meaning a beast rises out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed

Do you know what the sea signifies? What is God's definition of the beast? What do the heads represent? And the horns? What does the number 7 and 10 signify? How was the head receive a fatal wound?

These questions need to be dealt with before we know exactly who the beast is. So what is your answer to these questions?

B) meaning another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Again, what is God's definition of the beast? What does the earth represent? What do the horns signify? What is number 2 signify? Lamb? Again, these are questions you need to find God's interpretation in His Word before you know what this beast is.


C) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

What miracle is it? What image of the beast it? A physical statue or a likeness of the beast (doctrines)? How did this best receive the wound of the sword? By whom?


Amils apparently ignore the fact that the image is specifically to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Do you know what the image means? It's not a physical statue.
 
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5thKingdom

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Do you know what the image means? It's not a physical statue.


No, the problem is people want to offer an opinion on the "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark"
without being able to DEFINE any of those terms. It's just ridiculous.
I was hoping informed people would be on the forum.

.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you know what the image means? It's not a physical statue.

It probably isn't a physical statue, yet that is beside the point. The point is, per the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image, it is meaning the image of the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And none of you have provided the Scriptures that refute that. Where are those Scriptures if nothing in Revelation 13 are those Scriptures that tell us which image to the beast those recorded in Revelation 20:4 did not worship?

Either, Scripture interprets Scripture or it doesn't.

which had not worshipped the beast---Revelation 13 explains this

neither his image---Revelation 13 explains this

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Revelation 13 explains this

If you disagree that Revelation 13 explains that, then produce the Scriptures that do explain this. It is ludicrous, that when the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, that this is not meaning during the era of time Revelation 13 is involving. Until the beast rises out of the pit first, meaning it is not active in the earth while it is in the pit, no one is going to refuse to worship it, refuse to worship his image, in the meantime. That only makes sense once it has ascended out of the pit and that it then demands worship of itself otherwise death to those that refuse to worship it. Here's an idea then. Why don't we just throw Revelation 13 out the window altogether since it is useless Scripture, since none of it can explain the martyrdom per Revelation 20:4?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Your arguments are negated because in Daniel 12:11-12 which the abomination of desolation appears in the text, it will be at a time which will be the worst (i.e. the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21-22, which Jesus associated with the abomination of desolation setup) in the history of the nation of Israel. Daniel 12:1.

In addition, there will be resurrections at that time in Daniel 12:2.

In addition, there will be a time element involved of the breaking of the power of Israel, a time/times/haf time in Daniel 12:7

In addition, there are specific time elements of 1290 days and 1335 days involved with the setup of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12.

It is not my arguments that are the problem. I have explained exactly how God has defined the image in Scripture that I quoted. Because of carnal belief, the Dispensationalists did not like it and insisted that the abomination of desolation must be some physical statue sitting upon Temple Mount in Jerusalem within days you thought are literal.

The problem is that they do not really understand exactly who are the Holy People and what power they had before it scattered. So can you explain to us:

1.) Who are the Holy People Daniel talked about?
2.) What power did they have before it got scattered? When did they receive the power?
3.) Exactly what is the abomination of desolation?

The dispensationalists tend to see everything literally and it must have to do with, the Jews, the physical national Israel or physical city of Jerusalem when God did not talk about. Just like the Jews who thought Christ was talking about a physical temple that will take 46 years to rebuild when he was actually talking about something else. Spiritual discerned!

I hope that you can answer the three questions above with Scripture.
 
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TribulationSigns

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It probably isn't a physical statue, yet that is beside the point.

Oh yeah?

The point is, per the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image, it is meaning the image of the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And none of you have provided the Scriptures that refute that. Where are those Scriptures if nothing in Revelation 13 are those Scriptures that tell us which image to the beast those recorded in Revelation 20:4 did not worship?

Time out. I have asked you before. What does the image mean as defined by Scripture? I have given you a couple of scriptures. So tell me what is this image that the martyrs refuse to worship exactly? Then we will go from here.
 
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5thKingdom

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TribulationSigns said:
Do you know what the image means? It's not a physical statue.



It probably isn't a physical statue, yet that is beside the point.


NO... that is EXACTLY the point.
You cannot offer an "informed opinion" of a word you cannot DEFINE.
And it's embarrassing to pretend otherwise.


The point is, per the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image,


Yes... that is the POINT.


No, YOU must determine whether they did not worship the "Image" in the THIRD BEAST ON EARTH
(the Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)


Or during the FOURTH BEAST ON EARTH (the Great Tribulation Kingdom/Revelation Beast)
AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


Unless and Until you can DISCERN WHICH BEAST is in view...
you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on the matter.


And you only embarrass yourself pretending otherwise.
It REALLY is as simple as that.


You would do well to FIRST work on DEFINING what the terms "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark" represent
(since EACH exists in the Jewish Kingdom and the Christian Kingdom and the Great Tribulation Kingdom)
ULESS/UNTIL you can do that you simply cannot offer an "informed opinion" on those TERMS.



it is meaning the image of the beast,


The Image of WHICH BEAST buddy...
You just don't know.

Was it the Jewish Beast or the Christian Beast or the Great Tribulation Beast...
and support your "opinion" with Scripture (without ADDING to the text about the fatal wound)


which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


NO... you ADDED that part.
Read Rev 20:4 again... it does NOT say what you pretend.
You do not get to ADD to the text.


In fact, the point is you MUST ADD TO THE TEXT in order to support your view.
But ADDING to the text NEGATES your view.
Too bad.


And none of you have provided the Scriptures that refute that.


No Scriptures are needed when you cannot DISCERN WHICH BEAST is in view...
the BEAST of the Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"...
or the BEAST of the Great Tribulation AFTER the Last Saint is saved


It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to establish WHICH BEAST is in view in Rev 20:4...
and you have not EVER done that.


BTW... I will give you a hint (again)
One BEAST exists WHILE Satan is "bound"
One BEAST exists AFTER Satan is "loosened".


WHY do you not understand these things?


neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Revelation 13 explains this


I will tell you AGAIN

Rev 13 is talking about the Revelation Beasts that exist AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"...
You have offered ZERO REASONS to pretend the Beast in Rev 20:4 is not the Beast BEFORE the Last Saint is saved...


And THAT is your downfall...
you cannot DISCERN WHICH BEAST IS IN VIEW.


Because you cannot DEFINE "Beast" or "Image" or "Mark"
THAT is your problem and NOT a problem for the Gospel.
You are neither qualified or capable of offering an opinion.


If you disagree


Listen David,

The fact that the Bible describes a Kingdom (Beast) existing BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
and another Kingdom (Beast) AFTER the Last Saint is saved... this FACT ALONE demonstreates
there are MORE "Kingdoms/Beasts" on earth BESIDES the Revelation Beast.
Why do you reject this reality?


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Douggg said:
Your arguments are negated because in Daniel 12:11-12 which the abomination of desolation appears in the text, it will be at a time which will be the worst (i.e. the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21-22, which Jesus associated with the abomination of desolation setup) in the history of the nation of Israel. Daniel 12:1.



Douggg....

What in the world makes you PRETEND the "Beast" in Rev 20:4 includes the Abomination?
You already acknowledge there is ANOTHER "Beast" BEFORE the Abomination...


Tell me...
HOW MANY "Beasts/Kingdoms" arise on earth?


Douggg... pay attention
each "Beast" represents a "Kingdom" full of PEOPLE


Now... how many "Beasts" or "Kingdoms" arise on earth?
WHICH "Beast" is in view in Rev 20:4.
Provide Scripture


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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DavidPT said:
The point is, per the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image, it is meaning the image of the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Sir... WHY in the world do you continue to ADD to the text?
Please show me WHERE Rev 20:4 talks about a Beast which had a wound (the Revelation Beast)...
it does not exist. You continue to ADD that to the text and PRETEND you did not.
Stop pretending please.


THE TEXT does not say that for a very good reason...
the BEAST in Rev 20:4 is NOT the Revelation Beast


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Your PROBLEM is you do not know WHICH BEAST IS IN VIEW in Rev 20:4.
It's really as simple as that



Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Time out. I have asked you before. What does the image mean as defined by Scripture? I have given you a couple of scriptures. So tell me what is this image that the martyrs refuse to worship exactly? Then we will go from here.


Right!

How can someone pretend to offer an "informed opinion" on words they cannot DEFINE.

It is just pretending.
You cannot offer an opinion on words you cannot DEFINE
That is self-evident.

You cannot get away with that in ANY SUBJECT except "Bible study"...
That's hilarious.

Jim
 
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sparow

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By this I mean in regards to a beast. Meaning from the time the beast exists until the time this beast is destroyed, does that entire length of time involve an image, involve a mark?

Where do we even first learn of an image, learn of a mark? Is it not in Revelation 13? Is there already an image, already a mark, before the era of time pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If yes, where are the Scriptures that undeniably prove that?

In order to be martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, it obviously requires that there has to be an image to worship in order to refuse to worship it.

Saints have been martyred throughout history, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born. In all of these cases, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born, is the reason they are martyred because they refused to worship the image of the beast?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Here are two accounts involving saints that were martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, neither had they received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question then is, when should we assume these are martyred? Before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? Or during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If one insists it is before the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, that interpreter then has to prove there was already an image, already a mark, before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Because, after all, no one could possibly think it is reasonable that anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship an image unless there is first an image to refuse to worship.


Why this matters, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they are martyred before satan is released from the pit. Which obviously means that since they are martyred for refusing to worship the beast's image, refusing to take it's make, their martyrdom has to take place during an era of time when there is an image to worship, a mark to take. So, once again, since the time the beast has existed until it is destroyed, has there always been an image to worship, a mark to take? Speculation in this case is not acceptable proof. Speculation is not undeniable proof if one insists there has always been an image to worship, a mark to take, but that they can't undeniably prove this from Scripture, as in Scripture comes out and plainly says so, the same way it does in Revelation 13.
Yes and no. The Beasts are images of false gods of the Pagans or Gentiles, but the imagery is given by the prophets Daniel and John; but these are different to the image of the Best in Revelation which is an image of an image. The first Beast symbolically represents a governing force, where as the image of the Beast is a spiritual entity that causes men (and women and children) to do things they would not usually or sensibly do, like believe in climate change. Have you noticed that the world is going insane, committing financial suicide, it is the image of the beast, the spirit of evil, the spirit of anti-Christ. As prophesy unravels the proof is in the pudding, looking back for history and forward for prophesy. The great and terrible day of the Lord is not just for church people, it is for the whole world. If there is a physical mark of the beast it will be a crucifix.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yes and no. The Beasts are images of false gods of the Pagans or Gentiles, but the imagery is given by the prophets Daniel and John; but these are different to the image of the Best in Revelation which is an image of an image. The first Beast symbolically represents a governing force, where as the image of the Beast is a spiritual entity that causes men (and women and children) to do things they would not usually or sensibly do, like believe in climate change. Have you noticed that the world is going insane, committing financial suicide, it is the image of the beast, the spirit of evil, the spirit of anti-Christ. As prophesy unravels the proof is in the pudding, looking back for history and forward for prophesy. The great and terrible day of the Lord is not just for church people, it is for the whole world. If there is a physical mark of the beast it will be a crucifix.

I disagree. The image of the beast has nothing to do with climate change, the world gone bonk, financial suicide, etc. Nothing to do with the events in the world. Rather it has to do with God's New Testament Congregation where God shall judge her FIRST!

So in Revelation 13, the evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. So, the second beast with two horns like a lamb is the body of false prophets and christs as a beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast, their driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. God is telling us in Revelation 13 to use this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour the truth in the church worldwide (see my Gog and Magog I posted recently). The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the LIKENESS (image) of the beast. You see, the false prophets (second beast) give life to the likeness of the antichrist by PROPAGATING THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (aka the Two Witnesses) to be killed, not physically but their truthful testimony is being silenced. That is why there ar more and more churches today that are more tolerant and welcoming growing more liberal, humanistic, homosexual pastors all over the world so the unsaved professed Christians will buy and sell their false doctrines. They, as image, now have mouths with words of the devil taking root in the church that deceive those who have not yet been sealed by God. They are the remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed (Revelation 9) are slaves to the doctrines of antichrist.

This is the spiritual battle of Gog and Magog taking place right now.

@Spiritual Jew
 
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sparow

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I disagree. The image of the beast has nothing to do with climate change, the world gone bonk, financial suicide, etc. Nothing to do with the events in the world. Rather it has to do with God's New Testament Congregation where God shall judge her FIRST!

So in Revelation 13, the evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. So, the second beast with two horns like a lamb is the body of false prophets and christs as a beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast, their driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. God is telling us in Revelation 13 to use this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour the truth in the church worldwide (see my Gog and Magog I posted recently). The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the LIKENESS (image) of the beast. You see, the false prophets (second beast) give life to the likeness of the antichrist by PROPAGATING THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (aka the Two Witnesses) to be killed, not physically but their truthful testimony is being silenced. That is why there ar more and more churches today that are more tolerant and welcoming growing more liberal, humanistic, homosexual pastors all over the world so the unsaved professed Christians will buy and sell their false doctrines. They, as image, now have mouths with words of the devil taking root in the church that deceive those who have not yet been sealed by God. They are the remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed (Revelation 9) are slaves to the doctrines of antichrist.

This is the spiritual battle of Gog and Magog taking place right now.

@Spiritual Jew

Yes we disagree. I don't take my own stuff too seriously. I do ask myself, suppose I am wrong, will my views impede my salvation,


The whole world was deceived when John wrote Revelation; what was required was overcoming. Later Rome usurps the Gentile churches, that Paul influenced. Rome of course is only the legs and feet of the beast (the Beast's transport system). The beast also has a middle, a chest and a gold head. The church of the beast is the Papacy, plus most protestants, riding on the Beast's back. It is hard to separate the Beast from it's image, from it's false prophet; the main difference is the role each play.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yes we disagree. I don't take my own stuff too seriously. I do ask myself, suppose I am wrong, will my views impede my salvation,


The whole world was deceived when John wrote Revelation; what was required was overcoming. Later Rome usurps the Gentile churches, that Paul influenced. Rome of course is only the legs and feet of the beast (the Beast's transport system). The beast also has a middle, a chest and a gold head. The church of the beast is the Papacy, plus most protestants, riding on the Beast's back. It is hard to separate the Beast from it's image, from it's false prophet; the main difference is the role each play.

Sorry, you do not make any biblical sense but purely speculations. The legs and feet as beast's transport system?! The beast is Papacy? Where do you find that in Scripture?
 
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TribulationSigns

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It probably isn't a physical statue, yet that is beside the point. The point is, per the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image, it is meaning the image of the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And none of you have provided the Scriptures that refute that. Where are those Scriptures if nothing in Revelation 13 are those Scriptures that tell us which image to the beast those recorded in Revelation 20:4 did not worship?

Either, Scripture interprets Scripture or it doesn't.

which had not worshipped the beast---Revelation 13 explains this

neither his image---Revelation 13 explains this

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Revelation 13 explains this

If you disagree that Revelation 13 explains that, then produce the Scriptures that do explain this. It is ludicrous, that when the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, that this is not meaning during the era of time Revelation 13 is involving. Until the beast rises out of the pit first, meaning it is not active in the earth while it is in the pit, no one is going to refuse to worship it, refuse to worship his image, in the meantime. That only makes sense once it has ascended out of the pit and that it then demands worship of itself otherwise death to those that refuse to worship it. Here's an idea then. Why don't we just throw Revelation 13 out the window altogether since it is useless Scripture, since none of it can explain the martyrdom per Revelation 20:4?

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In verse 4 John tells us that he saw the souls of the martyrs who did not worship the beast, nor receive his mark. First of all, notice that John does "NOT" say he saw the martyrs, nor does he say that he saw their bodies or the persons, or he saw souls (which could be illustrating people). He is very specific! He saw the souls "of" those that were beheaded for the witness of God. The souls of them, nothing more! Again, this is the Spiritual picture that the Lord is giving us. First, the Messenger of the Covenant comes from heaven and binds Satan so that the New Covenant Church can be built which obviously took almost 2,000 years since Pentecost, and then John sees the souls of those martyred that raised up to reign with Christ on thrones. In other words, they are made kings and Priests unto God after Christ binds Satan. If you look at verse 5 you'll see that this (the souls of these martyrs up on thrones) is called "The First Resurrection." It's now a simple matter of Biblical deduction to discover exactly when and what was "The First Resurrection?"

Again, fitting perfectly into place we see that it was at the cross! These Souls were raised up to reign with Christ because of the work at the cross and Christ's resurrection thereafter. Christ is the "First" Resurrection. Those who have part in the first resurrection (being born again) are all the True Believers who have a part in Christ's First Resurrection. They are the First Resurrection (the second being at Christ's return). Those who have died in Christ have gone to be with the Lord, having been raised with Christ to reign. That's the First Resurrection these martyrs have part in, which precludes the second death!

The very fact a first resurrection is spoken about indicates that there is a second. And the second resurrection is at Christ's return. This is at the time of the Rapture when the rest of the dead who did not born again (first resurrection) will be raised to stand for Judgment. And then there will be the second death, of which those who have part in the First Resurrection (raised with Christ) have no need to worry about. Likewise, the very fact that a second death is spoken about, implies that there is a first death.

Romans 5:12-14
  • "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
  • (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
  • Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
The first death is our death in Adam. For in him we are all dead in tresspass and sin. Not physical death, but spiritually death, being separated from God. As God told Adam, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And in Adam, we all die, which means that we are all dead in trespass and sin. This is that first death! So we need the first resurrection to raise from THAT death. Not physical death. Spiritual! Consider wisely how we all raised up:

1st Corinthians 15:21-22
  • "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
  • For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Did Adam die the moment he ate off the tree? Yes, but not physically, he died spiritually! Selah! Therefore the first resurrection from THAT death is NOT physical, but spiritual! It is in Christ, the firstfruit. And we shall 'realize' that eternal life resurrection at his coming.

Look, do not be confused by this First and Second Resurrection, and the First and Second Death. This is the way the Lord writes things that His sheep 'alone' will receive it. Just as in the parables, He told. If we look at these verses carefully and objectively, we can see that the thousand years are not literal. These souls are those of the martyrs (who have died before us) in heaven. It says these are those beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and are those who didn't receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads (a sign of bondage to satan).

And we read the rest of the dead lived not again for 1000 years (verse 5). This also illustrates that this is not speaking about a future first resurrection, for there is one future resurrection of the just and the unjust. And it is not (nor can it be) the first. If this were indeed a literal number of years, then even all of the "rest of those who died" would have all had to die in the same year. Else they could not have died and not lived again for that literal thousand years. Did everybody (the rest of the dead) all die the same year? ..see how convoluted this gets? Likewise in the 1000 years the believers who died lived and reigned with Christ, is it the same thousand years satan is bound? If so, how can the souls of the dead be reigning with Christ in heaven when Christ is (supposedly) reigning with men here on Earth in literal jerusalem in the middle east? Moreover, if the rest of the dead for a thousand years refers to the same thousand literal years Satan is bound, then when Satan is loosed after the thousand years, these "rest of the dead" must also live again, and we have a world with dead people walking around, because scripture emphatically says they lived again after the thousand years? Does Satan have an army of "literal" dead people helping him deceive the nations and coming against the camp of the Saints? For the rest of these dead live after this thousand years, and Satan is loosed after a thousand years. On and on this inconsistency and torture of scripture is endless in the premillennialist doctrine. If we just bother to look at it carefully we understand that it simply cannot be literally a thousand years.

But here is the truth of the matter. We should understand that everything in this Revelations chapter 20 is going along in a logical chronological progression. Christ, The Messenger of the Covenant, Comes down from heaven with this Key (Christ is the one with the Keys to Hell and death -Rev. 1:18) and great chain and lays hold on Satan and bounds him 1000 year (the fullness time for the Lords purpose) so that He can free Satan's prisoners and populate Christ's Kingdom through the church with the spoil. He shuts Satan up in this spiritual prison symbolized by the fathomless abyss where he can't deceive the world and prevent the Lord's plan to build His Church by spoiling satan's house! God sets a seal on him (indicating that He assures this). This is God's "signification" of security that no one can loose Satan but God who bound him. Satan will NOT be loosed UNTIL the fullness of time is accomplished (spiritually, 1000 years). So after Satan is bound, John sees the number of souls of the martyrs then living and reigning on thrones. This is consistent with scripture of the binding of Satan, and the work of Christ on the cross which allows these souls to have been raised up from the dead to "live" and reign with Christ! They are kings and Priests unto their God having had part in Christ's Resurrection. We, Christians, are made kings and Priests the moment we got born again, and working in the Lord's kingdom right now.. in the church! We are those who are not servants of Satan (received his mark of servitude), but they are/were martyred because of our witness and for the Word of God they brought. And we all live and reign (spiritually) 1000 years with Christ. And it is by the work of this messenger of the Covenant that they can be translated into the Kingdom and live and reign with Christ.

Eph 2:5-6
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

See? What raising up or resurrection from the dead is this? If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not? These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross and they were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places having the Judgment of God with Power, because God dwelleth within them. Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well, or is deliberately ignoring them.

If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, hello? The last day is the day of the Rapture, but it's the second resurrection, not the first! But Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of another Resurrection. The First! Consider wisely... if you read slowly...

Joh 11:25-26
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Perhaps we should ask the Theologians of the Premillennialist Churches today if Jesus indeed was the Resurrection, because it doesn't appear that they believe this is true. Jesus was telling her, the first Resurrection unto Life is in Me, it's right here! I Am the Resurrection! He that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die! In other words, neither Lazarus nor you have to die physically and wait until the end of the world (The resurrection at the Last Day as Martha says) to be Resurrected. In fact, if you do wait till that time to be resurrected, you won't see life! The First resurrection is right here and now and without it, you are subject to the second death! But if you have part in this First Resurrection (born again in Christ) the second death hath no power over you. And that is exactly what Revelation 20 said about the First Resurrection!!

He that liveth and believeth is Resurrected in Christ so that he'll never die (physical death yes, the second death, No). And he that is dead (as these martyred souls John saw), don't really die, because they already had part in that 1st Resurrection in Christ. For example, as Christ said, the true Believer will never die! That scenario is only possible "IF" and only if they have a part in the First Resurrection, which is in Christ. When one is BORN AGAIN! So, when a believer is martyred (or dead in any way), his soul leaves the body, and he goes to live and reign with Christ forever (Symbolized by the number 1000 years) while the Church is still working on Earth. Because He had a part in the First Resurrection. And that of course is what John was talking about in Revelation 20. They are "SOULS" of the Martyrs, not people reigning on earth. John, seeing those souls in heaven, sees the First Resurrection. So get that part right first.

Symbolism
Thrones
= Reigning
Beheaded = Martyrdom for Christ
Beast = The Kingdom of Satan (as a Ravenous beast to devour)
Mark of the Beast = Signifies coming into Servitude to Satan's Kingdom
Forehead = The Mind
Hand = The Will

Because this messenger (Christ) came and bound satan, these souls of believers can go to live and Reign with Christ, "because" He has made them the First Resurrection, that they would never truly die.
 
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sparow

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Sorry, you do not make any biblical sense but purely speculations. The legs and feet as beast's transport system?! The beast is Papacy? Where do you find that in Scripture?

The Bible's history and prophesy is a system of repeating patterns; if one knows history one can predict the future, the abstract not the detail. Daniel and Revelation fit together like a hand in a glove. Daniel provides timelines, Revelation provides sequences; both books are sealed or time locked, information and understanding is revealed as each of the seven seals is opened. The first four seals correspond to the four horse of the Apocalypse; even though these four seals are history the horses continue to ride, having been sent out by God to do a job, reacting to what they see.


Some people take the scriptures literally and expect to be told every little thing; I see it as an abstract and a puzzle to be solved.


The Beast in Daniel is described as a Gold head, a silver chest, a bronze middle and iron legs, it is described in another place from memory as a lion a goat a ram and a dragon but it took over 500 years for the beast from Nebuchadnezzar's dream to be fully constructed, gold head through to the iron legs, Biblical Rome is the iron legs; this beast is to be destroyed by Christ, it hasn't happened yet. Why would the Beast have legs if it wasn't going to walk around.


I have not sad the Papacy is the Beast, I prefer that the Papacy is Jezebel on the Beast's back; there are strong arguments for the Papacy being the Beast; if we conclude that the iron legs was Rome at the time of Christ, then the Roman Empire remains the iron legs to day; when the Papacy was set up in 490 AD on the basis of a forged will the Church inherited the Roman Empire from (I think) Constantine, and that Church/State situation continued until Napoleon busted it up.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The Beast in Daniel is described as a Gold head, a silver chest, a bronze middle and iron legs, it is described in another place from memory as a lion a goat a ram and a dragon but it took over 500 years for the beast from Nebuchadnezzar's dream to be fully constructed, gold head through to the iron legs, Biblical Rome is the iron legs; this beast is to be destroyed by Christ, it hasn't happened yet. Why would the Beast have legs if it wasn't going to walk around.

So you expect the great image to walk around?? Did you believe that God wanted us to believe that it needs to work around to be part of the prophecy? Transport system?? Not impressed. Like I said... speculation.

I have not sad the Papacy is the Beast, I prefer that the Papacy is Jezebel on the Beast's back; there are strong arguments for the Papacy being the Beast; if we conclude that the iron legs was Rome at the time of Christ, then the Roman Empire remains the iron legs to day; when the Papacy was set up in 490 AD on the basis of a forged will the Church inherited the Roman Empire from (I think) Constantine, and that Church/State situation continued until Napoleon busted it up.

Sorry, I do NOT believe that Papacy is mentioned in Scripture. I am well aware that MANY, including amillennialists, have "interpreted" the Papl system to be the beast or the harlot, however, I do NOT believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

Genesis 3:15
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (via Israel in the Old Testament, and Via the Church in the New Testament), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical Nations, Wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is not the beast. Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.
 
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anetazo

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Revelation chapter 11, only the two witnesses will be killed by antichrist near future. Those with seal of God won't be touched. Daniel chapter 8, satan comes in peacefully and prosperity. Antichrist will deceive whole world by deception and lies. Satan is not coming on war horse. It's a spirtual battlefield. Read ephesians chapter 6, you need the gospel armour on, its knowledge and wisdom of God's word. Revelation chapter 13, the whole world will worship antichrist, because their biblically illiterate. The saints have gospel armory on, they're not going to worship antichrist. The mark of beast is to be deceived by antichrist lies and deception. Again, it's a spirtual battlefield. Satan will deceive many people by lies and deception. The answer is ephesians chapter 6.
 
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sparow

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So you expect the great image to walk around?? Did you believe that God wanted us to believe that it needs to work around to be part of the prophecy? Transport system?? Not impressed. Like I said... speculation.



Sorry, I do NOT believe that Papacy is mentioned in Scripture. I am well aware that MANY, including amillennialists, have "interpreted" the Papl system to be the beast or the harlot, however, I do NOT believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

Genesis 3:15
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (via Israel in the Old Testament, and Via the Church in the New Testament), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical Nations, Wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is not the beast. Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

You seem to have a problem with symbolic language. The bible only talks about two things, God first, then man appended to Satan; man is required to abandon Satan and be come appended to God; this is a battle primarily fought by angels manipulating men; in the midst of this men strive for salvation.


The Beast is symbolic of men driving institutions; the men change with each generation, while the Beast, as a set of types/anti-types continues to the time of the end.


The Gold head was Nebuchadnezzar and his system of government and religion, and so with silver chest, brass belly and iron legs, a composite of everything man has to offer opposing God, was formed, complete at Christ except for the feet and toes; still not destroyed.


So the Beast is a mental tool that walks around in a persons thinking, Literally, the Beast represents men who walk doing evil, men who rode horses during the days of the Illuminati, today they fly around in Jet planes, and accrue at places like Davao.


It is true, the word Papacy is not in the bible, but the Papacy is clearly identified as the institution called the false prophet and the beast who presumes to change Laws and times; if we call the Beast Rome (which is virtually the western world), then the Papacy is an image of the beast.


Your religion, what ever it is, is determining how you interpret scripture, there are two women as symbols in Revelation; there is Jezebel on the beast's back, a false church; and the woman clothed in the sun or having a golden shine like Moses, and having twelve stars around her head is the Israel of God; not the nation of Israel but the elect of Israel, without whom the covenant could not have been confirmed; the new covenant is a second chance for the lost sheep of Israel, not a lower standard.


I have no idea what a reformist view of Revelation is; I presume you mean protestant view I would be surprised if one exists; Revelation condemns both Protestant and Catholic religions so they keep at a distance, Sunday unites them. There is Preterism and Futurism, both of these have their origin in Jesuit thesis, at the Council of Trent. Both of these hypothesis think to place the Beasts out side of the Papal time frame, but lacking by necessity is definition of the beast ; Futurism identifies what was normal before and after, what became the false doctrines of Preterism and Futurism, Futurism is embraced and modified by Dispensationalism.


In Revelation, which is a description of the great and terrible day of the Lord, everything after chapter three is an anti-type and prophesy there is regurgitation mostly from the OT, with extra emphasis. The main purpose is to prepare us for what is to come; a wrong understanding could mean we will not be prepared.
 
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