Has there always been an image to worship or not worship, a mark to take or not to take?

[DavidPT]

By this I mean in regards to a beast. Meaning from the time the beast exists until the time this beast is destroyed, does that entire length of time involve an image, involve a mark?

Where do we even first learn of an image, learn of a mark? Is it not in Revelation 13? Is there already an image, already a mark, before the era of time pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If yes, where are the Scriptures that undeniably prove that?

In order to be martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, it obviously requires that there has to be an image to worship in order to refuse to worship it.

Saints have been martyred throughout history, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born. In all of these cases, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born, is the reason they are martyred because they refused to worship the image of the beast?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Here are two accounts involving saints that were martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, neither had they received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question then is, when should we assume these are martyred? Before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? Or during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If one insists it is before the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, that interpreter then has to prove there was already an image, already a mark, before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Because, after all, no one could possibly think it is reasonable that anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship an image unless there is first an image to refuse to worship.


Why this matters, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they are martyred before satan is released from the pit. Which obviously means that since they are martyred for refusing to worship the beast's image, refusing to take it's make, their martyrdom has to take place during an era of time when there is an image to worship, a mark to take. So, once again, since the time the beast has existed until it is destroyed, has there always been an image to worship, a mark to take? Speculation in this case is not acceptable proof. Speculation is not undeniable proof if one insists there has always been an image to worship, a mark to take, but that they can't undeniably prove this from Scripture, as in Scripture comes out and plainly says so, the same way it does in Revelation 13.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The image in Re:13 is the false throne that Satan sit on (2Thess:2) during the time the two witnesses are dead. In the day Jesus resurrects them, He also kills all sinners on the planet, including a few fallen angels like the Beast from the Pit. The throne is quite complex as it has to be able to speak like the throne in the Re:4 temple does. The temple Satan build is a tent like Moses built, that is because he only controls Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 the two witnesses are dead.

Re:13:14-15:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

M't:24:14-15:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand

Da:11:3:
And a mighty king shall stand up,
that shall rule with great dominion,
and do according to his will.
.
.
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
.
.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

 

[TribulationSigns]

One needs to know what is God's definition of the beast and the image. These are not physical objects as most thought.

For now, I will give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of the beast. The evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals as King David once admitted.

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast, his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law or Truth. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. This is why in Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likeness (image) of the beast.

Revelation 13:1-2

• "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
• And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea is often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance, the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. For example, crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Revelation 13:3

• "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under the authority of Satan, these kings (false prophets and christs as kings of the earth) rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Psalms 68:20-22

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
• The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God's service.

Revelation 13:10-11

• "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
• And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 13:12-14

• "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

Revelation 13:15-16

• " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed (testimony silenced). Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:17-18

• "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
• Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Not the number of "a" man as may be written in your "translation," but the original says it is the number "of Man," signifying the lawless man (man of sin) or man of lawlessness. The buying and selling signify the work of the church, and no one can work there except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan. The mark God tells us is 666, the number of man (not a man). Selah!

So that's basically my brief overview of all those verses of Revelation 13 for now.

@Sovereign Grace
@Spiritual Jew

 

[DavidPT]

The image in Re:13 is the false throne that Satan sit on (2Thess:2) during the time the two witnesses are dead. In the day Jesus resurrects them, He also kills all sinners on the planet, including a few fallen angels like the Beast from the Pit. The throne is quite complex as it has to be able to speak like the throne in the Re:4 temple does. The temple Satan build is a tent like Moses built, that is because he only controls Jerusalem for the 3 1/2 the two witnesses are dead.

Re:13:14-15:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

M't:24:14-15:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand

Da:11:3:
And a mighty king shall stand up,
that shall rule with great dominion,
and do according to his will.
.
.
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
.
.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

The passages you provided, I fully agree that there is a connection between them, that they involve the same events, the same era of time. I'm not convinced any of this is involving the literal city in Jerusalem, though. IOW, I tend to think these things are to be taken spiritually rather than literally. Years ago I did think these things were to be taken literally, but I have since changed my mind about that. But even so, I guess what is really important, regardless whether one takes these things literally, or that one doesn't, that we are at least in agreement that the passages you submitted, they are all connected with this.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The passages you provided, I fully agree that there is a connection between them, that they involve the same events, the same era of time. I'm not convinced any of this is involving the literal city in Jerusalem, though. IOW, I tend to think these things are to be taken spiritually rather than literally. Years ago I did think these things were to be taken literally, but I have since changed my mind about that. But even so, I guess what is really important, regardless whether one takes these things literally, or that one doesn't, that we are at least in agreement that the passages you submitted, they are all connected with this.

2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Re:11:7-8:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.

Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.

Re:17:18:
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,
which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Re:18:10:
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city!
for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.
La:1:1-2:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!
She weepeth sore in the night,
and her tears are on her cheeks:
among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her:
all her friends have dealt treacherously with her,
they are become her enemies.

These are the one I use, there are more if this doesn't convince you where Satan's Babylon is. God only gives him 3 1/2 days, it is as short as possible.

 

[DavidPT]

One needs to know what is God's definition of the beast and the image. These are not physical objects as most thought.

For now, I will give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of the beast. The evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals as King David once admitted.

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast, his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law or Truth. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. This is why in Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likeness (image) of the beast.

Revelation 13:1-2

• "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
• And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea is often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance, the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. For example, crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Revelation 13:3

• "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under the authority of Satan, these kings (false prophets and christs as kings of the earth) rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Psalms 68:20-22

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
• The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God's service.

Revelation 13:10-11

• "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
• And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 13:12-14

• "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

Revelation 13:15-16

• " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed (testimony silenced). Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:17-18

• "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
• Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Not the number of "a" man as may be written in your "translation," but the original says it is the number "of Man," signifying the lawless man (man of sin) or man of lawlessness. The buying and selling signify the work of the church, and no one can work there except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan. The mark God tells us is 666, the number of man (not a man). Selah!

So that's basically my brief overview of all those verses of Revelation 13 for now.

@Sovereign Grace
@Spiritual Jew

I don't necessarily think you are wrong about some of these things. I can relate to your version of Amil better than I can relate to the version of Amil involving the 2 members at the end of your post. IOW, to me your version makes more sense than their version does. Keeping in mind, meaning to me, meaning in my opinion.

One reason why I am Premil, and there are numerous reasons why, is because I am convinced that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped the beast's image, that they are martyred during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13. IOW, they are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that they are martyred before satan is loosed from the pit. Which then means to me that the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, that involving the 42 month reign, that era of time can't be meaning after satan is loosed from the pit if it is already meaning before he is loosed from the pit. Which then could mean the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, it is meaning before satan is even cast into the pit. And if so, it clearly matters where one places the beginning of the thousand years in that case.

Though you made some interesting points, what you submitted in this post still does not convince me that I might be wrong about the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped his image, that they are martyred during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

If there has always been an image to the beast ever since it has existed, why then do they need to make this particular image if one already exists?

 

[Zao is life]

By this I mean in regards to a beast. Meaning from the time the beast exists until the time this beast is destroyed, does that entire length of time involve an image, involve a mark?

Where do we even first learn of an image, learn of a mark? Is it not in Revelation 13? Is there already an image, already a mark, before the era of time pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If yes, where are the Scriptures that undeniably prove that?

In order to be martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, it obviously requires that there has to be an image to worship in order to refuse to worship it.

Saints have been martyred throughout history, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born. In all of these cases, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born, is the reason they are martyred because they refused to worship the image of the beast?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Here are two accounts involving saints that were martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, neither had they received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question then is, when should we assume these are martyred? Before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? Or during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If one insists it is before the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, that interpreter then has to prove there was already an image, already a mark, before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Because, after all, no one could possibly think it is reasonable that anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship an image unless there is first an image to refuse to worship.


Why this matters, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they are martyred before satan is released from the pit. Which obviously means that since they are martyred for refusing to worship the beast's image, refusing to take it's make, their martyrdom has to take place during an era of time when there is an image to worship, a mark to take. So, once again, since the time the beast has existed until it is destroyed, has there always been an image to worship, a mark to take? Speculation in this case is not acceptable proof. Speculation is not undeniable proof if one insists there has always been an image to worship, a mark to take, but that they can't undeniably prove this from Scripture, as in Scripture comes out and plainly says so, the same way it does in Revelation 13.

I do not believe the beast is a metaphor for anything but the what the Bible itself tells us it's a metaphor for - kings and their kingdoms (Daniel 7:17). We can entertain non-biblical meanings for a beast that has ten kings who hand over their power and authority to an 8th king, but it won't suffice, IMO.

Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will not receive the mark are sealed with an invisible seal - the seal of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit alone is omnipresent.

I do not believe the mark of the beast is invisible and to do only with belief (forehead being equated with thoughts and beliefs and right hand being equated with actions). It's a mark. A mark is a mark. It's obvious that what we believe (forehead) will decide our actions (right hand) - but that IMO will involve a visible mark, even if it's a nanochip or some other mark produced by technology - and the bible is talking about worshiping a man, though veiling it in the language of metaphor.

Nebuchadnezzar had to have a visible image for people to worship - no doubt erected all around the entire empire (images all designed the same and representing the same king).

The only two places we read about a people who refused that mark being killed are in Revelation 13:15 and Revelation 20:1-4. Aside from Jesus, the only other place in the Bible we read about someone having been anastasis (resurrected) and being zao (alive) again after having been killed is where Herod though that John the Baptist, who he had beheaded, had risen again from the dead (Mark 6:16).

So I can't help here. Because I agree with your OP.

 

[eleos1954]

By this I mean in regards to a beast. Meaning from the time the beast exists until the time this beast is destroyed, does that entire length of time involve an image, involve a mark?

Where do we even first learn of an image, learn of a mark? Is it not in Revelation 13? Is there already an image, already a mark, before the era of time pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If yes, where are the Scriptures that undeniably prove that?

In order to be martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, it obviously requires that there has to be an image to worship in order to refuse to worship it.

Saints have been martyred throughout history, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born. In all of these cases, before Christ was born, and after Christ was born, is the reason they are martyred because they refused to worship the image of the beast?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Here are two accounts involving saints that were martyred for refusing to worship the image of the beast, neither had they received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The question then is, when should we assume these are martyred? Before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? Or during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If one insists it is before the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13, that interpreter then has to prove there was already an image, already a mark, before that of the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Because, after all, no one could possibly think it is reasonable that anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship an image unless there is first an image to refuse to worship.


Why this matters, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they are martyred before satan is released from the pit. Which obviously means that since they are martyred for refusing to worship the beast's image, refusing to take it's make, their martyrdom has to take place during an era of time when there is an image to worship, a mark to take. So, once again, since the time the beast has existed until it is destroyed, has there always been an image to worship, a mark to take? Speculation in this case is not acceptable proof. Speculation is not undeniable proof if one insists there has always been an image to worship, a mark to take, but that they can't undeniably prove this from Scripture, as in Scripture comes out and plainly says so, the same way it does in Revelation 13.

In the end times it is indeed about worship .... the "counterfeit" must come before the true. It is true there has always been false worship ... but the mark of the beast has to do with the end times ... when things come to a climax.

It is a great deception .... very simply ... it is a matter of who one accepts as their authority .... God the creator and His laws .... or a religious/political system that violates Gods laws. This system (union of church & state worldwide) that will come to power will have great control over earths inhabitants ... will control buying and selling .... (power over currency worldwide) .... for those who vehemently refuse the dictates of this power will be subject to severe persecution .... to avoid such many will go along with this power .... even tho it violates Gods laws.

The mark of the beast is one who goes along with this power ... in the forehead (what one thinks) ... in the hand (what one does)

So where are we in the stream of time? What do we currently see? We see the pope (church & state) entity constantly "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing" around with the Kings of the earth political, religious and powerful business people. We see currency going towards being digitized (easy to control) .... Biden just recently stated we need to do this. We have non-elected elites (business and religious entities) calling for a New World Order (global system). We have the pope pushing for worship on Sunday (violation of the 4th commandment to keep the 7th day Sabbath - not allowed to fully discuss this here). We have the pope meeting with very rich and powerful business people.

The pope is calling for religions to unite under the cloak of "the common good" .... this can not happen without violating much of what is taught in His Word. Who is going to decide what the "common good" is on a global basis ... the pope.

There are many religions who deny Jesus completely .... and that is certainly not acceptable.

Also using the climate change issue to usher in global control ... this is something atheists and all non believers can get on board with and is why it is being pushed by all players.

Pope: Economy and society benefit when focused on common good - Vatican News

Deception .... beware of deception ... some things may "sound good" (flowery words) but in reality ... it's all about control .... control over every aspect of ones life. Control over one's finances. I mean look at what happened in Canada with the truckers. Hello ... anybody there?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't necessarily think you are wrong about some of these things. I can relate to your version of Amil better than I can relate to the version of Amil involving the 2 members at the end of your post. IOW, to me your version makes more sense than their version does. Keeping in mind, meaning to me, meaning in my opinion.

I do not know if our amillennialism views on everything are perfectly aligned but those brethren of mine are doing an excellent job testifying with Scripture. I believe that it is our job to witness God's Word since it is HIS interpretation that we are trying to help you guys to understand. But it is up to the Spirit of the Lord to open our eyes.

One reason why I am Premil, and there are numerous reasons why

I used to be Dispensational Premillennialist for many years so I know the doctrine like the back of my hand. I already understand where you come from.

, is because I am convinced that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshiped the beast's image, that they are martyred during the era of time involving the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13.

Okay, let's focus on the word, martyrs. I understand that this is either your interpretation or the thoughts of your teachers, but it is not the actual word of God. Do you know of any Scripture that says people are going to be PHYSICALLY killed by the millions to be qualified as "martyrs" in the great tribulation? I have searched the Scriptures for years and I can't come up with such a declaration.

The continued spreading of the gospel throughout church history after the tortures, burnings, sufferings, persecutions, trials, tribulations and deaths of the saints, are proof of that.

Matthew 5:11-12

• "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
• Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

2nd Timothy 3:12

• "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

Romans 8:36-39

• "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
• Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

It does not require one to be physically killed for their testimony as there are millions upon millions who have lived old age without being killed, yet they suffered all kinds of persecution for their faith. For example, if someone hates you in the heart for your testimony of truth, you are already murdered. You are a martyr in God's eyes.

So the doctrine of premillennialism is incorrect about the martyr thinking that they must be a group of people being physically killed by the beasts within a timeframe.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

If there has always been an image to the beast ever since it has existed, why then do they need to make this particular image if one already exists?

Okay, the problem with your doctrine is that you believe the image needs to be a physical object to be made with hands for someone to worship. That is not what God is talking about here.

Colossians 1:14-15

• "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Revelation 16:2

• "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

Whether it is the image [eikon] of Christ or the image [eikon] of the beast, it is signifying the representation or likeness of that thing. For example, Scripture tells us Christ is the exact "image" of God, right? If we worship Christ, we are worshipping God. It does not mean that we need to create a physical object of Christ as an image. Likewise, the "image" of the beast is that which represents or is a likeness of Satan. If we worship the image or that which is like Satan, we worship Satan. That's it! Colossians 1 above tells us Christ is the image of God, and it is just to worship that image. The beast is the image of Satan, and it is unrighteous to worship that image.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

By the Spirit, true believers are conformed to God's image, the likeness or image of the beast is what ALL the wicked by nature conform to. By nature, they worship him because they are ruled over by him as we are ruled by Christ, and they are slaves to him. Receiving the mark, name or number of the beast signifies professing servants of God have gone into apostasy, a falling away of God's people to the abominations taking place in the holy place.

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Those who do not flee are (or will be) deceived and marked of Satan's carnal congregation (the beast) for unfaithfulness as that is "signifying" they belong to him! Just as God did in the Old Testament marked His people on the forehead in the midst of abominations in His holy city "signifying" they belong to Him. Selah!

God was painting a spiritual picture for us so that we might compare Scripture with Scripture and come to the truth of the matter. Today's church really needs to ask itself this pertinent question. Are they of the likeness of Christ who represents love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance--or are we worshiping the beast who represents greed, unfaithfulness, hatred, uncleanness, lust, idolatry, spiritual drunkenness, envying and murder? What image is really beloved and do they really worship? What spirit are they really in? Is it that of Christ in obedience or is it really that spirit of the adversary in disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)? Are we enamored with the kingdoms of this world (Romans 12:2), or the world to come (Mark 10:30). That determines who we worship, serve and whose image we seek after.

Matthew 4:8-10

• "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
• And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
• Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Satan offers the same temptation to us today, and we either are drawn to or adapt to his image or Christ's. For just as true believers, as servants of God, are conformed to the image [eikon] or likeness of Christ (Romans 8:29) to worship him, so in this same way, the servants of Satan (the pseudo or anti-christ) are conformed to his image [eikon] or likeness to worship him. Sadly, some people think that people will be literally worshipping a statue, but as we worship the Lord in spirit and truth conforming to His image, so the wicked also worship Satan in spirit and lies, conforming to his image! We all either serve one master or the other, there is no in-between or gray area. If we are opposed to the doctrines of Christ, we are serving the beast and are conformed to worship his image. Just as we have the name of Christ as Christian spiritually upon us as His children, they have the name of the beast spiritually upon them as children of the Devil. Just as we are marked of God unto salvation, so they are marked by the beast unto damnation.

Ezekiel 9:4

• "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

There is nothing new under the sun saith the preacher. Even as God marked His servants of old who cried over the abominations of His people in the holy city, so the faithful in His congregation today are spiritually marked on their forehead illustrating they are the true servants bought with a price by Christ. Likewise, Satan spiritually marks his own, where they become his children, with his name or moniker and number. The image of the beast is a portrait of the "exact opposite" of the body of Christ, the Temple of Christ, the image of Christ. We worship in either one likeness or in the other. We are under one "representation" of one kingdom or the other. The Kingdom of Christ or the kingdom of the beast.

So then, I believe that the image of the beast signifies being "like" Satan, as those who don't worship Christ or who don't conform to His image, worship and conform to the antichrist image. The beast from the bottomless pit is the spirit of evil, the likeness of Satan, whom the unfaithful worship.

You probably going to ask how the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast so it shall speak and caused as many True Christians who refuse to worship the image of the beast should be killed (silence). The false prophets (the body of the second beast that looks like a lamb) give life to the likeness of the beast by propagating their false teachers, which lead to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (Two Witnesses) to be killed (testimony silenced).

Let me give you an example, the false prophets and christs will tell their congregation to tolerate homosexuals and allow them to become pastors of the congregation, or wed the gay couple in the house of God. While the professed Christians are deceived and will agree to this but the true Christians will not support this and say it is an abomination. However the beast becomes strong and can overcome the two witnesses by silencing their truthful testimony because they are sick and tired to hear God's law. You get the idea of what is going on right now today.

 

[5thKingdom]

By this I mean in regards to a beast. Meaning from the time the beast exists until the time this beast is destroyed, does that entire length of time involve an image, involve a mark?

Where do we even first learn of an image, learn of a mark? Is it not in Revelation 13? Is there already an image, already a mark, before the era of time pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13? If yes, where are the Scriptures that undeniably prove that?

To ask your question... has there always been a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark"
You need to first DEFINE what each term represents.

Can you do that?


/

 

[Douggg]

I do not know if our amillennialism views on everything are perfectly aligned but those brethren of mine are doing an excellent job testifying with Scripture. I believe that it is our job to witness God's Word since it is HIS interpretation that we are trying to help you guys to understand. But it is up to the Spirit of the Lord to open our eyes.


I used to be Dispensational Premillennialist for many years so I know the doctrine like the back of my hand. I already understand where you come from.



Okay, let's focus on the word, martyrs. I understand that this is either your interpretation or the thoughts of your teachers, but it is not the actual word of God. Do you know of any Scripture that says people are going to be PHYSICALLY killed by the millions to be qualified as "martyrs" in the great tribulation? I have searched the Scriptures for years and I can't come up with such a declaration.

The continued spreading of the gospel throughout church history after the tortures, burnings, sufferings, persecutions, trials, tribulations and deaths of the saints, are proof of that.

Matthew 5:11-12

• "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
• Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

2nd Timothy 3:12

• "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

Romans 8:36-39

• "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
• Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

It does not require one to be physically killed for their testimony as there are millions upon millions who have lived old age without being killed, yet they suffered all kinds of persecution for their faith. For example, if someone hates you in the heart for your testimony of truth, you are already murdered. You are a martyr in God's eyes.

So the doctrine of premillennialism is incorrect about the martyr thinking that they must be a group of people being physically killed by the beasts within a timeframe.




Okay, the problem with your doctrine is that you believe the image needs to be a physical object to be made with hands for someone to worship. That is not what God is talking about here.

Colossians 1:14-15

• "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Revelation 16:2

• "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

Whether it is the image [eikon] of Christ or the image [eikon] of the beast, it is signifying the representation or likeness of that thing. For example, Scripture tells us Christ is the exact "image" of God, right? If we worship Christ, we are worshipping God. It does not mean that we need to create a physical object of Christ as an image. Likewise, the "image" of the beast is that which represents or is a likeness of Satan. If we worship the image or that which is like Satan, we worship Satan. That's it! Colossians 1 above tells us Christ is the image of God, and it is just to worship that image. The beast is the image of Satan, and it is unrighteous to worship that image.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

By the Spirit, true believers are conformed to God's image, the likeness or image of the beast is what ALL the wicked by nature conform to. By nature, they worship him because they are ruled over by him as we are ruled by Christ, and they are slaves to him. Receiving the mark, name or number of the beast signifies professing servants of God have gone into apostasy, a falling away of God's people to the abominations taking place in the holy place.

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Those who do not flee are (or will be) deceived and marked of Satan's carnal congregation (the beast) for unfaithfulness as that is "signifying" they belong to him! Just as God did in the Old Testament marked His people on the forehead in the midst of abominations in His holy city "signifying" they belong to Him. Selah!

God was painting a spiritual picture for us so that we might compare Scripture with Scripture and come to the truth of the matter. Today's church really needs to ask itself this pertinent question. Are they of the likeness of Christ who represents love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance--or are we worshiping the beast who represents greed, unfaithfulness, hatred, uncleanness, lust, idolatry, spiritual drunkenness, envying and murder? What image is really beloved and do they really worship? What spirit are they really in? Is it that of Christ in obedience or is it really that spirit of the adversary in disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)? Are we enamored with the kingdoms of this world (Romans 12:2), or the world to come (Mark 10:30). That determines who we worship, serve and whose image we seek after.

Matthew 4:8-10

• "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
• And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
• Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Satan offers the same temptation to us today, and we either are drawn to or adapt to his image or Christ's. For just as true believers, as servants of God, are conformed to the image [eikon] or likeness of Christ (Romans 8:29) to worship him, so in this same way, the servants of Satan (the pseudo or anti-christ) are conformed to his image [eikon] or likeness to worship him. Sadly, some people think that people will be literally worshipping a statue, but as we worship the Lord in spirit and truth conforming to His image, so the wicked also worship Satan in spirit and lies, conforming to his image! We all either serve one master or the other, there is no in-between or gray area. If we are opposed to the doctrines of Christ, we are serving the beast and are conformed to worship his image. Just as we have the name of Christ as Christian spiritually upon us as His children, they have the name of the beast spiritually upon them as children of the Devil. Just as we are marked of God unto salvation, so they are marked by the beast unto damnation.

Ezekiel 9:4

• "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

There is nothing new under the sun saith the preacher. Even as God marked His servants of old who cried over the abominations of His people in the holy city, so the faithful in His congregation today are spiritually marked on their forehead illustrating they are the true servants bought with a price by Christ. Likewise, Satan spiritually marks his own, where they become his children, with his name or moniker and number. The image of the beast is a portrait of the "exact opposite" of the body of Christ, the Temple of Christ, the image of Christ. We worship in either one likeness or in the other. We are under one "representation" of one kingdom or the other. The Kingdom of Christ or the kingdom of the beast.

So then, I believe that the image of the beast signifies being "like" Satan, as those who don't worship Christ or who don't conform to His image, worship and conform to the antichrist image. The beast from the bottomless pit is the spirit of evil, the likeness of Satan, whom the unfaithful worship.

You probably going to ask how the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast so it shall speak and caused as many True Christians who refuse to worship the image of the beast should be killed (silence). The false prophets (the body of the second beast that looks like a lamb) give life to the likeness of the beast by propagating their false teachers, which lead to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (Two Witnesses) to be killed (testimony silenced).

Let me give you an example, the false prophets and christs will tell their congregation to tolerate homosexuals and allow them to become pastors of the congregation, or wed the gay couple in the house of God. While the professed Christians are deceived and will agree to this but the true Christians will not support this and say it is an abomination. However the beast becomes strong and can overcome the two witnesses by silencing their truthful testimony because they are sick and tired to hear God's law. You get the idea of what is going on right now today.

Your arguments are negated because in Daniel 12:11-12 which the abomination of desolation appears in the text, it will be at a time which will be the worst (i.e. the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21-22, which Jesus associated with the abomination of desolation setup) in the history of the nation of Israel. Daniel 12:1.

In addition, there will be resurrections at that time in Daniel 12:2.

In addition, there will be a time element involved of the breaking of the power of Israel, a time/times/haf time in Daniel 12:7

In addition, there are specific time elements of 1290 days and 1335 days involved with the setup of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12.

 

[5thKingdom]

The image in Re:13 is the false throne that Satan sit on

NO... that is wrong.
The Saints are not forced to "worship" a false throne.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

One needs to know what is God's definition of the beast and the image. These are not physical objects as most thought.

Erik that is absolutely correct.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

For now, I will give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of the beast.

First, your explanation is not "brief"

And secondly... I am more interested in your understanding
of WHAT the "Image" and the "Mark" represent.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

The evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals as King David once admitted.

No, that is incorrect.


Daniel was very specific about WHAT the "Beasts" represent... they represent "Kingdoms"
consisting of PEOPLE


Dan 7:17
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
which shall be diverse from all [the other 3] kingdoms, and [the fourth Beast]
shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


While people have considered the Four Beast to represent Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome...
we know this interpretation MUST BE WRONG because


(1) the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about Daniel's Beast remains "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"

Therefore any old "interpretation" (like Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome)
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed during a time
when the Bible PROMISed the TRUTH was "sealed"


(2) Daniel 7:11-12 destroys any notion of physical/political Kingdoms
representing the spiritual teaching about the "Beasts/Kingdoms"


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.


Christian Saints were never meant to understand the historical fulfillment of “Time of the End” events [Acts 1:7].
Just as the Jewish Saints were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom”, so also, Christian Saints
were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom of Heaven”. The Jewish Gospel and Christian Gospel
did not understand Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom/Beast”. Those Truths remained “sealed” until the “Time of the End”.


Now, I will tell you WHAT Daniel's Four Beasts represented

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


JESUS specifically NAMED these "Kingdoms of Heaven"
Why would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


In addition, we see that HISTORY (reality)
confirms these Four "Beasts/Kingdoms"
each arose in this order.


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[5thKingdom]

It is not my arguments that are the problem. I have explained exactly how God has defined the image in Scripture.

I am sorry Erik, I cannot find WHERE you defined the "Image".
Please be so kind as to re-post that definition.


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[5thKingdom]

Now, I will tell you WHAT Daniel's Four Beasts represented

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


JESUS specifically NAMED these "Kingdoms of Heaven"
Why would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


In addition, we see that HISTORY (reality)
confirms these Four "Beasts/Kingdoms"
each arose in this order.

To be clear:

the Fourth Beast on earth (the Revelation Beast, the Great Tribulation, the Anti-Christ RULING during Satan's "Little Season")

is shown as being TWO Beasts and TWO Woes and TWO Trumpet Judgments and TWO "heads/kings"

You have the FIRST Revelation Beast during the 1st Woe and 5th Trumpet and 7th "head/king"

And you have the SECOND Revelation Beast during the 2nd Woe and 6th Trumpet and 8th "head/king"

So Daniel taught of Four Beasts and the Fourth Beast consisted of TWO "heads/kings"


/

 

[DavidPT]

To ask your question... has there always been a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark"
You need to first DEFINE what each term represents.

Can you do that?


/

If I say I can't, wouldn't it be helpful to the discussion, that if you can, that you then do just that? Who knows, but depending on what you might say, and depending on whether I see it making logical sense, maybe you might say something that I never took into consideration before, thus am able to look at it from a different angle. For the time being though, the way I'm looking at it, until a beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled, how can there even be an image prior to that? And besides, the image is specifically involving the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. why is that not significant?

How then is it reasonable, that the image the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 did not worship, that this is not the image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live? Is it because if it is, it throws a monkeywrench into pretty much everything you are arguing?

After all, if these particular martyrs per Revelation 20:4 prove that the era of time involving the 2 beasts per Revelation 13 mean before the thousand years, how can it also mean after the thousand years? And since it obviously can't be both, Amil can't work unless the era of time involving the two Revelation 13 beasts, that this is after the thousand years. Obviously, if the era of time involving the two Revelation 13 beasts is after the thousand years, that undeniably proves Amil. While OTOH, obviously, if the era of time involving the two Revelation 13 beasts is before the thousand years, that undeniably proves Premil.

I'm assuming you are not going to argue, that the first vial, the fact it targets those that are worshiping his image, that this is not in connection with the two Revelation 13 beasts. Why then would you argue differently in regards to those who refuse to worship his image, meaning the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, that they are not martyred during the era of time involving the two Revelation 13 beasts?

 

[TribulationSigns]

How then is it reasonable, that the image the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 did not worship, that this is not the image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live? Is it because if it is, it throws a monkeywrench into pretty much everything you are arguing?

Hold on...

Rev 13:2-3
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

First, do you know what is the biblical definition of the beast? and his heads? How did one of his heads get a fatal wound and later healed? When did the fatal wound take place? The healing? Hint: these are NOT physical! Spiritual Discerned!

 

[Lost Witness]

One needs to know what is God's definition of the beast and the image. These are not physical objects as most thought

Absolutely True