Has there always been an image to worship or not worship, a mark to take or not to take?

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
To ask your question... has there always been a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark"
You need to first DEFINE what each term represents.

Can you do that?

If I say I can't, wouldn't it be helpful to the discussion, that if you can, that you then do just that?

First, you don't need to say you can't because we both know you can't.


The problem with me just telling you WHAT the "Image" and "Mark" represent
is it's too much for you to understand.


I have been trying to get people to understand the definition of "Beast" for a while
and they cannot "understand"... the definition of the "Image" and "Mark"
is BASED on first understanding the "Beasts"


If someone cannot understand the definition (and historical fulfillment) of the "Beasts"
there is NO WAY they will understand the "Image" (of the Beast) and the "Mark" (of the Beast).

Who knows, but depending on what you might say, and depending on whether I see it making logical sense, maybe you might say something that I never took into consideration before,

There is no doubt the definition of the "Image" and "Mark" are something you (or any Believer)
has ever considered before. Daniel 12:4 and 12:9-10 PROMISES that much.

the way I'm looking at it, until a beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled, how can there even be an image prior to that?

You are confused.
Daniel's "Beasts" represent the Four "Kingdoms" that arise on earth... during the History of Man


You are talking about the TWO Revelation "Beasts"


The Fourth "Beast" on earth consists of:
TWO "Beasts" and TWO "Woes" and TWO "Trumpets" and TWO "heads/kings"


The FIRST Revelation Beast is during the 1st Woe, the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head/king"
The SECOND Revelation Beast is during the 2nd Woe, the 6th Trumpet and the 8th "head/king"


There is an "Image" and "Mark" for EACH of Daniel's Four "Beasts/Kingdoms" on earth
There is also an "Image" and "Mark" for BOTH of the Revelation Beasts.

Again, do not conflate the Four Beasts on earth with the TWO Revelation Beasts


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Hold on...

Rev 13:2-3
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

First, do you know what is the biblical definition of the beast? and his heads? How did one of his heads get a fatal wound and later healed? When did these take place?

LOL... while what you said above is true...
Erik, I am still waiting for you to DEFINE the "Image" and the "Mark"

In fact I have a question for you:
Do you understand that EACH of Daniel's Four "Beasts/Kingdoms" included an "Image" and a "Mark"?
It is true. In fact it's self-evident as soon as you understand the definition of these terms.

Just as each of Daniel's Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation Kingdom)
had an "Image" and a "Mark"


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Absolutely True

Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" and the "Mark"...
Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Beast"

/

 

[DavidPT]

I used to be Dispensational Premillennialist for many years so I know the doctrine like the back of my hand. I already understand where you come from.

You don't know where I'm coming from then. I might be a Premil, but I'm not a Dispensational Premil.

Okay, the problem with your doctrine is that you believe the image needs to be a physical object to be made with hands for someone to worship. That is not what God is talking about here.

Colossians 1:14-15

• "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Revelation 16:2

• "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

Whether it is the image [eikon] of Christ or the image [eikon] of the beast, it is signifying the representation or likeness of that thing. For example, Scripture tells us Christ is the exact "image" of God, right? If we worship Christ, we are worshipping God. It does not mean that we need to create a physical object of Christ as an image. Likewise, the "image" of the beast is that which represents or is a likeness of Satan. If we worship the image or that which is like Satan, we worship Satan. That's it! Colossians 1 above tells us Christ is the image of God, and it is just to worship that image. The beast is the image of Satan, and it is unrighteous to worship that image.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

By the Spirit, true believers are conformed to God's image, the likeness or image of the beast is what ALL the wicked by nature conform to. By nature, they worship him because they are ruled over by him as we are ruled by Christ, and they are slaves to him. Receiving the mark, name or number of the beast signifies professing servants of God have gone into apostasy, a falling away of God's people to the abominations taking place in the holy place.

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Those who do not flee are (or will be) deceived and marked of Satan's carnal congregation (the beast) for unfaithfulness as that is "signifying" they belong to him! Just as God did in the Old Testament marked His people on the forehead in the midst of abominations in His holy city "signifying" they belong to Him. Selah!

God was painting a spiritual picture for us so that we might compare Scripture with Scripture and come to the truth of the matter. Today's church really needs to ask itself this pertinent question. Are they of the likeness of Christ who represents love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance--or are we worshiping the beast who represents greed, unfaithfulness, hatred, uncleanness, lust, idolatry, spiritual drunkenness, envying and murder? What image is really beloved and do they really worship? What spirit are they really in? Is it that of Christ in obedience or is it really that spirit of the adversary in disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)? Are we enamored with the kingdoms of this world (Romans 12:2), or the world to come (Mark 10:30). That determines who we worship, serve and whose image we seek after.

Matthew 4:8-10

• "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
• And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
• Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Satan offers the same temptation to us today, and we either are drawn to or adapt to his image or Christ's. For just as true believers, as servants of God, are conformed to the image [eikon] or likeness of Christ (Romans 8:29) to worship him, so in this same way, the servants of Satan (the pseudo or anti-christ) are conformed to his image [eikon] or likeness to worship him. Sadly, some people think that people will be literally worshipping a statue, but as we worship the Lord in spirit and truth conforming to His image, so the wicked also worship Satan in spirit and lies, conforming to his image! We all either serve one master or the other, there is no in-between or gray area. If we are opposed to the doctrines of Christ, we are serving the beast and are conformed to worship his image. Just as we have the name of Christ as Christian spiritually upon us as His children, they have the name of the beast spiritually upon them as children of the Devil. Just as we are marked of God unto salvation, so they are marked by the beast unto damnation.

Ezekiel 9:4

• "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

There is nothing new under the sun saith the preacher. Even as God marked His servants of old who cried over the abominations of His people in the holy city, so the faithful in His congregation today are spiritually marked on their forehead illustrating they are the true servants bought with a price by Christ. Likewise, Satan spiritually marks his own, where they become his children, with his name or moniker and number. The image of the beast is a portrait of the "exact opposite" of the body of Christ, the Temple of Christ, the image of Christ. We worship in either one likeness or in the other. We are under one "representation" of one kingdom or the other. The Kingdom of Christ or the kingdom of the beast.

So then, I believe that the image of the beast signifies being "like" Satan, as those who don't worship Christ or who don't conform to His image, worship and conform to the antichrist image. The beast from the bottomless pit is the spirit of evil, the likeness of Satan, whom the unfaithful worship.

You probably going to ask how the second beast gives life unto the image of the beast so it shall speak and caused as many True Christians who refuse to worship the image of the beast should be killed (silence). The false prophets (the body of the second beast that looks like a lamb) give life to the likeness of the beast by propagating their false teachers, which lead to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (Two Witnesses) to be killed (testimony silenced).

Let me give you an example, the false prophets and christs will tell their congregation to tolerate homosexuals and allow them to become pastors of the congregation, or wed the gay couple in the house of God. While the professed Christians are deceived and will agree to this but the true Christians will not support this and say it is an abomination. However the beast becomes strong and can overcome the two witnesses by silencing their truthful testimony because they are sick and tired to hear God's law. You get the idea of what is going on right now today.

I have news for you. I don't take any of these things in a literal sense involving the 2 beasts in Revelation 13, including the image and the mark, though it is possible the mark might be literal, thus I don't rule that possibility out . You are not even understanding the points I raise. One of them being, until A) happens first, (regardless what A) B) C) might look like when it is fulfilled) followed by B), followed by C), there is no D) in the meantime.

A) meaning a beast rises out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed

B) meaning another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


C) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

D) meaning an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

How can D) already exist before A) B) and C) are fulfilled first?


Amils apparently ignore the fact that the image is specifically to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Meaning in regards to Revelation 20:4. Where that should tell anyone that doesn't have doctrinal bias concerning this, that the image the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 refused to worship, thus are martyred as a result, this is meaning during the era of time A) B) and C) is involving, which then means they are martyred during the time of the two Revelation 13 beasts, and that they are not martyred after satan is loosed from the pit. They are martyred before he is loosed from the pit. Therefore, one can't place the era of time A) B) and C) is involving, after the thousand years if it is already involving before the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Amils do not use Scripture to interpret Scripture here. Because if they did they would be using Revelation 13 to explain this martyrdom involving this portion of this verse. Instead, Amils are not even using Scripture to interpret Scripture here whatsoever since they are not even providing the Scripture that explains the image they refuse to worship, and that they deny that Revelation 13 is that Scripture. Amils are interpreting Scripture with their imagination here, and not with Scripture instead. Meaning in regards to this----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

 

[Douggg]

Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" and the "Mark"...

The term image in Revelation 13 means a likeness in appearance. Since it is something to be made (Revelation 13:14), it will be a statue image, just as the golden calf in the Exodus was a statue.

The Mark will be a visible emblem placed on people's right hand or forehead - associated with the name of the beast person.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

For example, as a lightning bolt, as an emblem, might be associated with Zeus.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" and the "Mark"...

The term image in Revelation 13 means a likeness in appearance. Since it is something to made (Revelation 13:14), it will be a statue image, just as the golden calf in the Exodus was a statue.

No, the "Image" occurs in the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom and the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka the Revelation Beast)


It is NOT a statue... it is NOT a golden calf...


The "Image" represents something ABOUT the Revelation "Beast"...
something that represents the "Beast".


The "Image" is NOT something made with hands:


Colossians 1:14-15

• "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

And remember EACH "Kingdom/Beast" in history had it's own "Image"...
and it's own "Mark"

The Mark will be a visible emblem placed on people's right hand or forehead - associated with the name of the beast person.

LOL...
the "Mark" of the Beast represents the SAME THING as the "Seal" of God.
which is placed IN (not on) the forehead.


You cannot just GUESS about the definition of these terms...
you must be able to harmonize your theory with Scripture:


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God IN their foreheads.


Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God IN their foreheads.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
For example, as a lightning bolt, as an emblem, might be associated with Zeus.

LOL... a lightning bolt.


The "Mark" represents the SAME THING as the "Seal".
It identifies a person worshipping either the "Beast" or with God.


You cannot just GUESS what the meaning of word are..
you must search the Scripture to find RELATED verses.
The Bible DEFINES it's own words.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" and the "Mark"...
Can you DEFINE the meaning of the "Beast"

Yes. Spiritual. Since Cain. Since religion. Since politic. Since pharmakeia especially, which the Creator States Clearly deceives the whole world, 'everyone'.

You have not DEFINED the meaning of the "Beast"
You have not DEFINED the meaning of the "Image"
You have not DEFINED the meaning of the "Mark"

Your response was NOT addressing the comment.
Your response was nonsensical

/

 

[5thKingdom]

You don't know where I'm coming from then. I might be a Premil, but I'm not a Dispensational Premil.





I have news for you. I don't take any of these things in a literal sense involving the 2 beasts in Revelation 13, including the image and the mark, though it is possible the mark might be literal, thus I don't rule that possibility out . You are not even understanding the points I raise. One of them being, until A) happens first, (regardless what A) B) C) might look like when it is fulfilled) followed by B), followed by C), there is no D) in the meantime.

A) meaning a beast rises out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed

B) meaning another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


C) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

D) meaning an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

How can D) already exist before A) B) and C) are fulfilled first?


Amils apparently ignore the fact that the image is specifically to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Meaning in regards to Revelation 20:4. Where that should tell anyone that doesn't have doctrinal bias concerning this, that the image the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 refused to worship, thus are martyred as a result, this is meaning during the era of time A) B) and C) is involving, which then means they are martyred during the time of the two Revelation 13 beasts, and that they are not martyred after satan is loosed from the pit. They are martyred before he is loosed from the pit. Therefore, one can't place the era of time A) B) and C) is involving, after the thousand years if it is already involving before the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Amils do not use Scripture to interpret Scripture here. Because if they did they would be using Revelation 13 to explain this martyrdom involving this portion of this verse. Instead, Amils are not even using Scripture to interpret Scripture here whatsoever since they are not even providing the Scripture that explains the image they refuse to worship, and that they deny that Revelation 13 is that Scripture. Amils are interpreting Scripture with their imagination here, and not with Scripture instead. Meaning in regards to this----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Erik,
your post above was EXCELLENT work.
Well done.

Jim
.

 

[DavidPT]

If any Amils reading this thread disagree with me when I stated that Amils are not using Scripture to interpret Scripture, in regards to the following---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they deny Revelation 13 explains that, then simply provide the Scripture that explains the image they refuse to worship. Otherwise you are just making up stuff rather than proving what you allege.

Are any Amils going to argue, pertaining to the events involving Revelation 13, that that is meaning while the beast is still in the pit, that it hasn't ascended yet? I'm guessing probably not. Which then means since Revelation 13 explains the image the saints per Revelation 20:4 refuse to worship, this obviously means that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit after the thousand years as some Amils allege, it means it has already ascended out of the pit before these saints per Revelation 20:4 who refused to worship it's image, are martyred.

 

[5thKingdom]

Erik,
your post above was EXCELLENT work.
Well done.

Jim
.

It is nice to see that someone else understand WHAT the "Image" represents.
You posted appropriate Scripture to support your understanding.
I think you can ADD the following to your list:


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God IN their foreheads.


Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God IN their foreheads.


/

 

[DavidPT]

Erik,
your post above was EXCELLENT work.


Well done.

Jim
.

Opinions by themselves prove nothing one way or the other. I don't see where you proved that what Erik submitted, that that was excellent work. All I see by you is an opinion that it was excellent work.

 

[5thKingdom]

If any Amils reading this thread disagree with me when I stated that Amils are not using Scripture to interpret Scripture, in regards to the following---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they deny Revelation 13 explains that, then simply provide the Scripture that explains the image they refuse to worship. Otherwise you are just making up stuff rather than proving what you allege.

David, David, David...
You cannot pretend to understand the MEANING of the "Image" or the "Mark"
when you cannot DEFINE those words.


Secondly... there was an "Image" and a "Mark"

during the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom/Beast"
during the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom/Beast"
during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom/Beast"

As well as the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom/Beast" (the Revelation Beast)


Moreover,
Great Tribulation Signs (I think that's his "name")
has ALREADY explained exactly WHAT the "Image" represents.
I am not the ONLY person that can DEFINE the word


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Opinions by themselves prove nothing one way or the other. I don't see where you proved that what Erik submitted, that that was excellent work. All I see by you is an opinion that it was excellent work.

LOL,
Erik DENINED the "Image"
Whether you LIKE that definition or not
It is Biblical and cannot be REFUTED with Scripture.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Which then means since Revelation 13 explains the image the saints per Revelation 20:4 refuse to worship, this obviously means that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit after the thousand years as some Amils allege, it means it has already ascended out of the pit before these saints per Revelation 20:4 who refused to worship it's image, are martyred.

It is NOT that "some A-Mils" allege Satan ascends out of the Pit after 1000 years..
it is the BIBLE that "alleges" that happens:


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[DavidPT]

It is NOT that "some A-Mils" allege Satan ascends out of the Pit after 1000 years..
it is the BIBLE that "alleges" that happens:


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

If Revelation 13 is some of the Scriptures that explain that, then where are some of the Scriptures that explain the martyrdom per Revelation 20:4 involving not worshiping the beast's image? You might have a valid case if Revelation 20:4 had only said this----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---rather than this---and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Had it said the former only, then you wouldn't need to explain via Scripture any martydom involving not worshiping the beast's image, since it would not even be relevant if it doesn't even mention any of this. But since it does mention it, it therefore is relevant, and that it has to be explainable via Scripture what image they refuse to worship, the fact the text undeniably states that they didn't worship the beast's image, thus it resulted in them being martyred. And that this is meaning before satan is loosed from the pit.

 

[DavidPT]

It is NOT that "some A-Mils" allege Satan ascends out of the Pit after 1000 years..
it is the BIBLE that "alleges" that happens:


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Unless you perhaps think satan and the beast are the same entity, nowhere in any of the text you presented does it ever say the beast is cast into pit when satan is, and that it ascends from the pit when satan does.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This passage alone makes it crystal clear that satan and the beast are not the same entity. The text that you submitted states that satan is loosed after the thousand years, not this instead, satan and the beast are loosed after the thousand years.

 

[5thKingdom]

It is not complicated at all. Notice that those who refuse to worship/refuse to serve/ the devil and demons
who are martyred
are martyred before Jesus Returns, not after.

So true
.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
It is NOT that "some A-Mils" allege Satan ascends out of the Pit after 1000 years..
it is the BIBLE that "alleges" that happens:


Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Rev 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Unless you perhaps think satan and the beast are the same entity, nowhere in any of the text you presented does it ever say the beast is cast into pit when satan is, and that it ascends from the pit when satan does.

I agree it is Satan that is bound in the Pit
and (after the A-Millennial Kingdom is complete)
Satan is released for a period known as the Great Tribulation
and the Revelation Beast.

I never said Satan IS the "Beast"
It is Satan that gives power to the Beast


Rev 13:4
And they [in the Fourth Kingdom] worshipped the dragon [Satan] which gave power unto the [Revelation] Beast:
[when you worship the Revelation Beast you are worshipping Satan] and they worshipped the Beast, saying,
Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This passage alone makes it crystal clear that satan and the beast are not the same entity. The text that you submitted states that satan is loosed after the thousand years, not this instead, satan and the beast are loosed after the thousand years.

I never said Satan and the Beast are the same entity.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

Unless you perhaps think satan and the beast are the same entity, nowhere in any of the text you presented does it ever say the beast is cast into pit when satan is, and that it ascends from the pit when satan does.

This is so interesting.

You have NO IDEA what the "Beast" represents,
you cannot DEFINE the term, and yet you want to express an opinion,
on WHAT you cannot define. Amazing.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

If Revelation 13 is some of the Scriptures that explain that, then where are some of the Scriptures that explain the martyrdom per Revelation 20:4 involving not worshiping the beast's image?

There is NO QUESTION the Saints martyred in Rev 20:4 were martyred for worshipping a Beast.
The question is was it the THIRD BEAST or the FOURTH BEAST?
You do not understand the QUESTION.
You have no context.


There was a "Beast" in the Jewish Kingdom
There was a "Beast" in the Christian Kingdm
There was a "Beast" in the Great Tribulation Kingdom (actually there were 2 Beasts)


In Rev 20:4
You CONFLATE the Saints martyred during the Christian Kingdom
with Saints martyred during the Revelation Beast.


You are CONFLATE two separate and distinct "Beasts/Kingdoms"...
you would know that if you could DEFINE the term.


David... really... you do not understand the QUESTION...
Did they worship the THIRD Beast or the FOURTH Beast?
You need to deal with the question.


/