Happy Hanukkah

[A New Dawn]

[c]ADMIN HAT

Thread moved to St. Justin Martyr's Corner. Carry on.[/c]

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

[c]ADMIN HAT

Thread moved to St. Justin Martyr's Corner. Carry on.[/c]

Ah! A debate area.

Thanks. Unsubscribing.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess maybe you need to let Archpriest Alexander Winogradsky Frenkel know that? There ARE lots of confused Orthodox here...but I and a few others are not among them

Hebrew Liturgies Resound in Jerusalem

I think Israeli would include Israeli Orthodox Christians.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I think Israeli would include Israeli Orthodox Christians.

But not any other Jewish Orthodox Christians...only those within the city limits of Israel...right? Just wanna get it straight...

So we HERE should NEVER use language (ie. Russian, Greek, etc) for any reason unless we are in that Country. So, Russian Orthodox words can only be used by those in Russia, Greece, Etc.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Others already addressed the issue of seeming desire to Judaize the Church - which was never verified. What was noted was that Gentiles never need to feel like they HAVE to do things pertinent to Jewish Christians since they're Gentile.

The false teaching of the Judaizing heresy was that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to become Christians - a VERY big issue in the first-century Church and one that the book of Galatians covers in considerable detail. Yeshua Ha Derek has not advocated at any point that the Gentiles here had to convert to Judaism in order to be accepted before the Lord - and thus, it'd be bad generalization to even try using the term "Judaizing" since it is OUT of context from the original setting it occurred in.

Appreciation for that which is Jewish and was done by early believers is not the same as saying one MUST engage in such in order to be pleasing to the Lord.....so we cannot be sloppy in the accusations we throw out - something which I shared on before (here as well...) when it came to discussing what Judaizing was according to the Early Church. As said earlier:

​

I agree with what Lukaris noted as do others.....and this is not something that is unconventional in light of what has been practiced within the Orthodox Church - from the Syrian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church to Ethiopian Orthodox to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and many others including parts of Eastern Orthhodoxy (as mentioned before in #110 and #115/ #141 ) noting appreciation within Orthodoxy for Jewish culture /the meaning of Chanukah and ALL still practice Jewish customs extensively.



Speaking in terms of "We" is akin to sweeping generalization - as you nor any others agreeing do not represent EVERY single Orthodox poster who has been on the forum in its existence - and attempting to do so is a matter of again seeking to make things bigger than what they really are.

Additionally, no one said you ONLY reacted to one above the other (as it concerns the claim of language and Judaizing) - as what was emphasized in the post you responded to was the language issue.

I already noted, of course, in that SAME posting where you also responded to your own personal view of Judaizing without dealing with actually showing historically what was that was about ....and that is a matter of selective argumentation. Prior to that, I noted where I agreed with others on how using the term "Yeshua" can seemed forced if one doesn't go from that to using other forms of expression others are used to.

But avoiding where Gentile/Jewish believers appreciated the culture/customs God gave His people in the Early Church is a dynamic of failing to really be aware of what Jewish Christians did in the Early Church - and frankly, it can easily appear as simply having issues with Jewish culture as the Orthodox Church valued it. The issue of language is also an issue of being disingenuous in argumentation, IMHO, when it comes to making an imaginary standard that one's own standard of English (not perfect) that you or others prefer is what ALL here on the forum have always be for - and that is again a matter of a clique mindset without warrant. But TAW is NOT a clique - nor do a select group of others currently present speak for all matters within Orthodoxy or how all have felt on what is "standard English"......

This was noted earlier in #132 with how you (as well as others) already betrayed any argument or talk of feeling unnecessarily put through greater difficulty when not being able to acknowledge where you did the same thing and condoned it when language regarding the world of cyber-space....which is always changing/hard to keep up with.

The English utilized by yourself was NOT always understood nor something others cared to say anything on since they gave you space to speak with others agreeing with you.

Others have noted before how difficult it is to keep up with all of that as well as the various ways it can change - and it'd not be terribly difficult for one to go back/document each case where that has come up over the years. So long as people see you or others speaking with texting usage or phrases many have often noted DON'T make sense to everyone all the time, the argument will never fly with acting as if Yeshua Ha Derek was wrong for saying "Yeshua" or the only one not engaging in "standard English usage all understood"

As noted before, Hebrew in the Church concerning language may be unconventional for some - but it's not foreign to Orthodoxy when familar with the whole of what happens in the Orthodox world. Other Orthodox have said "Yeshua" (be priest or laity) in interaction/Divine Liturgy just as others preferring Spanish over English (be it Hispanics or Gentiles who grew up speaking both English and Spanish) grew up appreciating saying the name of the Lord in that language ....or in Arabic (if from there) or in Greek and others.


It's equivocation to avoid where you already used language/ideas relevant to you and others that other Orthodox neither cared for - or used in everyday language - and yet are trying to discriminate against another Orthodox who does so as do others in that parish. Until you and all of us speak proper English or you address where others have noted being tired of you bringing up phrases/ideas from other literary minds such as Chesterton or using certain forms of communication, it's pointless trying to focus on Yeshua Ha Derek.
The OP poster wished Happy Hannukah - that's not the same as claiming ALL within Orthodoxy HAVE to celebrate it since many in Orthodoxy have appreciated it while not celebrating it while others do enjoy it as they do Birthdays, Thanksgiving, Halloween and other things.

It was already noted where one made a false premise claiming the OP demanded all to celebrate it since he noted that wasn't his intention - but that premise is what was ran with by a couple. Thus, you avoided the issues while creating categories/straw men. And as said before, there can be no speaking on the Orthodox Church if not addressing the many aspects of it disagreeing with your own premise - from the Syrian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church to Ethiopian Orthodox to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and many others including parts of Eastern Orthhodoxy (as mentioned before in #110 and #115/ #141 ) noting ppreciation within Orthodoxy for Jewish culture /the meaning of Chanukah and ALL still practice Jewish customs extensively - there are multiple points of reference throughout the Orthodox Church where one has to ignore practice in order to fight against their own imagery of what they'd like to imagine the Church being.

If one wishes to fight against ALL of the Churches on that matter, of course, that's their own personal choice and one you'll have to deal with....but it is what it is and much of Orthodoxy DOES not support your assertions. Thus, IMHO, I think it'd behoove you to cease with making incomplete or outright erroneous claims on what the Church teaches when it's obvious that much of it was skipped past for the sake of argument - for it's self-evident that there was a lack of interaction with the Orthodox Church as it has expressed itself globally if not able to deal with much of the Church being opposite of your preferences in practice. The bottom line is that claiming "Judaizing" is pointless when one can ONLY claim that and yet ignore how the Church actually defined it - dealt with it - and addressed it. There's no warrant claiming judaizing as anything appreciative of Jewish customs/culture that the Early Church valued.

Not really concerned about reaching you since it was already apparent you made your mind up regardless of whether or not your ideology was in line with what has been deemed objective on English/American - and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Of course, claiming "most people" is specious seeing how many within the U.S/globally have long noted the same, regardless of protest on your part. Moreover, it was already addressed (as it concerns arguing via appeal to ridicule) with making a false scenario as you did earlier (#129 ) when making a wild argument that noting differences in English preferences is somehow akin to not believing in Absolute truth .Objective understandings of what "American" and "English" are have always included variety and this is noted within Linguistics for anyone dealing objectively with the issue - although you avoided it.
Again, sweeping claims don't make an argument since "everybody else" doesn't equate to all nor does it deal with all in the Orthodox Church.

Excellent post

 

[ArmyMatt]

But not any other Jewish Orthodox Christians...only those within the city limits of Israel...right? Just wanna get it straight...

So we HERE should NEVER use language (ie. Russian, Greek, etc) for any reason unless we are in that Country. So, Russian Orthodox words can only be used by those in Russia, Greece, Etc.

um, no, I am down with Hebrew being used, especially if it makes a theological point. we use Hebrew when we say the Gospel at Agape Vespers after Pascha. I merely pointed out that I think she included Israeli Orthodox in what she said.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Ah, ok Matt. Maybe my post should be to her?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ah, ok Matt. Maybe my post should be to her?

if you want it to, sho thang.

 

[rusmeister]

But not any other Jewish Orthodox Christians...only those within the city limits of Israel...right? Just wanna get it straight...

So we HERE should NEVER use language (ie. Russian, Greek, etc) for any reason unless we are in that Country. So, Russian Orthodox words can only be used by those in Russia, Greece, Etc.

Yeshua, what you do is, for us, an affectation in regards to language. I don't go around saying "Bog said, let there be svet, and there was svet", or "Acquire the Svyatiy Dukh, and thousands around you will be spaseny." or whatever. If I use Russian at all in here, it's in a clear context that I am using it AS A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

You've been here for a while, and people have largely put up with your Hebrewisms, because, on its own, it's not a big deal. We're cool with the multiculturalsm of Orthodoxy, even though it's a very MINOR irritation that you push Hebrew usage.

But when you started this Happy Hannukah thing, that blew a small thing up into a big thing. Now we have Jewish PRACTICE, not merely Hebrew words, being encouraged on us. People have died defending this faith for two thousand years, even in Hebraic. You seem to not have got the memo: modern Judaism is a different faith that denies Orthodoxy, and Hannukah is a holiday of that religion, just as the Entrance in the Temple of the Theotokos - Mother of God - is a holiday for us. All of your (and G's) words claiming that Hannukah is a valid Orthodox continuation of ancient Jewish tradition don't wash with us. There is no debate; it is simply not true. It's not heresy for a Jew to celebrate it, or greet us with his holiday, but if you insist on it, it IS heresy, precisely because you are Orthodox.

I don't see how we can recognize any communion with Christians who celebrate specifically religious holidays of other faiths. They have turned away from the Church, which tells US what our holy days are.

 

[ArmyMatt]

what personally threw me, and this is just me, is that since we have Christmas, and we celebrate Christ's Nativity, we do celebrate the fulfilled Chanukkah, since the light in Maccabees pointed us toward the Light who came into the world. so the Jewish Fesitval of Lights, like every other OT feast is fulfilled in Christ. it is just as strange to me if we would be suggested that for Pascha this year, we save the lamb blood and annoint the lintels and doorposts of our homes with it.

 

[katherine2001]

Both Nativity and Theophany are the fulfillment of Hanukkah. That is why I think we need to be really careful celebrating Jewish feasts. I believe the Church adopted as much Judaism as was compatible with Christianity. The fact is that the Jewish faith rejects the person who is at the very center of Orthodox (and any other Christian group) faith! Judaism and Christianity are not the same, even though Christianity grew out of Judaism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Both Nativity and Theophany are the fulfillment of Hanukkah. That is why I think we need to be really careful celebrating Jewish feasts. I believe the Church adopted as much Judaism as was compatible with Christianity. The fact is that the Jewish faith rejects the person who is at the very center of Orthodox (and any other Christian group) faith! Judaism and Christianity are not the same, even though Christianity grew out of Judaism.

did not know that about Theophany, but it makes sense. very eeeenteresting

 

[rusmeister]

did not know that about Theophany, but it makes sense. very eeeenteresting

Makes sense. The affirmation of the Incarnation can be put in terms of a father holding up his newborn and saying "This is my son!"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hanukkah, never forget Divine calls | abbaa

Nov 23, 2013, Holodomor Day 2013 - Prayer for the Victims - YouTube

Sukkot 2013-5774/ כ×[bless and do not curse]סת סוכות ש×[bless and do not curse]ת תשע''ד - YouTube

Beautiful Liturgy - and thanks for sharing it. The later one (on Sukkot) was marvelous - very good chanter. And with the former one on Holodomor Day, I was glad for it.

What happened at the hands of the Soviet leaders in 1932-33 is heartbreaking - and I'm thankful for the remembrance done on behalf of the Ukrainians/all others who perished during that time. Seeing how others have actually felt that what the Ukrainians experienced was not a genocide, the ways Fr.Alexandr Avraham Winogradsky Frenkel notes the connection of the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust to the Genocide that the Ukrainians and others experienced is on point.

The suffering of others around the world is never something to take lightly - and something we should always be in consideration for

I was thankful for how he utilized Ukrainian and Hebrew in the prayers - as hearing the prayers in Hebrew (as well as Ukrainian) is always amazing - and having friends/family in Israel, it's a beautiful seeing the ways Hebrew is utilized, from evangelism to everyday conversation and worship ....similar to what occurred in the Eucharistic Liturgy of The Syrian Orthodox Church when it comes to the ways they utilize language. Of course, with the evolution of language, it's always an amazing journey to study. For as you are aware (and as mentioned elsewhere), St. Peter is believed to have founded a church in Antioch in AD 39.....while at the same time in Edessa, the capital of the Kingdom of Urhoy on the borders of Syria and Mesopotamia, a Church was in existence before the end of the first century - and in the course of the next two centuries Edessa became the centre of a Christian culture using the Edessene dialect of Aramaic, called Syriac, as its language. While the Church in the West adopted Greek as its language for worship, the Church in the East, addressing itself largely to the Jewish Christians of the diaspora, continued to speak Aramaic....for the forms of worship in the Syriac Orthodox Church reflect the Antiochene and Edessene heritage of the Church.... the Syriac Church and the Syrian liturgy.

Syriac Christianity (as well as with other Oriental Orthodoxy denominations) today use Arabic as their liturgical language - with it being known that they have been using Arabic since the times of Muslim invasions, as early as second half of 8th Century. While Syriac is still the liturgical language in the Maronite Rite and they make a point of saying the words of consecration in Aramaic, most of the non-Maronite Christians in the region are Melchites, who use an Arabic version of the Byzantine liturgy, which was originally in Greek..

But Syrian Churches in Kerala, India, still use Aramaic as their liturgical language and they also use Malayalam (the language of Kerala in India) for providing proper understanding among people. Of course, within the Oriental Orthodox churches, there's a lot of debate that has occurred .....for many still celebrate the Divine Liturgy in Syriac (a later dialect of Middle Aramaic) and one of the dominant reasons is that many Oriental Orthodox consider the Syriac Peshitta to be the authoritative scriptures (as the native language Syriac - a Semitic language related to Aramaic - was used in Christian writings ...more here and here), some even insisting on New Testament Aramaic primacy. As Dr. Sebastian Brock (the foremost scholar of Syrian Christianity) , demonstrated in regards to how the Peshitta New Testament was translated from the Greek into Syriac, it is amazing to see the extensive influence on the Early Church when examining Jewish Traditions in Syriac Sources and understanding The Bible in the Syriac tradition ..the name of Jesus in the Syriac Peshitta text is ܝܫܘܥ (Jesu). It is already the case that many Orthodox traditions still observe the Divine Liturgy in older languages, even when those languages are no longer spoken (such as Church Slavonic) - and this is very true of the Syriac Orthodox who can rightly claim that theirs is the oldest Divine Liturgy text and is therefore closest linguistically to the language spoken by Jesus and the Apostles.

Due to the fact that it is generally accepted that they are the oldest Christian church in existence, it is the case that there's much motivation for not changing the language and tradition - and yet many Middle Eastern Oriental Orthodox churches have switched to using Arabic in services (such as the Coptic Orthodox) - but in all of that, there's an understanding of the fact that there's honor that occurs when utilizing the language of what the Early Church utilized in many places - and thus, it's one of the reasons why they don't have any real issue.

It's honorable when using the language of others who suffered/died for the Faith and valued it - just as it's honorable when using the language of others in differing eras/places who also contributed to the history of the Saints.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hebrew Liturgies Resound in Jerusalem

Good review

Hanukkah, never forget Divine calls | abbaa

I appreciate the review the individual gave, particularly as it concerns the issue of cultural assimilation and what others can face when it comes to dealing with it where they are (and for Jewish individuals today within the Church, it's a VERY big issue they are keenly aware of).

As the author of the article noted best (for brief excerpt):

The miracle of the light showed at that time the importance of spiritual struggle and resistance, which are still very much an up-to-date challenge. We might often give up our religious forces and abandon the commandments of God. Acommunity of faithful can be destroyed by using two different methods. This does not only concern the Jewish Community but also the Christians:

a) Physical annihilation as the Jews were exterminated during World War II at the time of the Shoah-שואה/ Churban\חורבן (reduction to nothing) (catastrophe) and previously mentioned in the Bible in the small scroll of Esther. This is the Feast of Purim.

b) Cultural annihilation, which is often very subtle and not very clearly determined. The purifying of the Temple by the Hasmoneans shows this particular kind of spiritual behavior giving to God the right and first place. In the Christian world this is very similar to the spiritual resistance of the saints and martyrs throughout history, especially over the 20th century.

​

The first step of the struggle conducted by the Maccabees ended on 25 Kislev and this is one of the explanations given for the name of the Feast: Hanukkah, i.e. "HaNUKH\הנוח" = "they rested [on the KH = 25\כ''ה]". In fact the word is mentioned in the Second Book of the Maccabees since Hanukkah is "dedication, inauguration" (Talmud Tractate Shabbat 21b). This tiny lamp of oil was found unexpectedly. Would it be possible to compared this to the song we sing during Pessach: “Dayeinu\דינו” :”If God had only done such and such a miracle… that would have sufficed”? Indeed, we are not strong in confessing (our) faith. At times, we might understand that what is imperiled, in ourselves as in our society, is precisely God’s Presence and steadfastness. It did suffice for God’s witnesses that one single oil lamp was ready to burn.



​

Jewish Christians throughout the centuries always kept in mind the reality of their own heritage that the Lord had given - knowing who they were and where they stood with the Lord, just as Gentiles did. Both came from cultures the Lord worked in - and from cultures where others in them turned away from God....and yet the Lord still had them retain many aspects central to who they were.

I had a very good discussion with one of my Orthodox sisters recently where we discussed the ways that there was a bit of sibling rivalry going on between Jews and Gentiles in Church history. At one point, the Jewish Christians - seeing Christ transforming the meaning of the Biblical Feasts (just as Christ did during the Last Supper ....more in #36 /#37 / #40 / #47 /#55 / #71 ) - were faithful in reflecting what the Apostles/Christ did ....but Gentiles had no connection with that and many times the Jewish Christians excluded Gentiles from that since they felt the Feasts didn't belong to them.

In time, the Gentiles became more prominent than the Jews due to a litany of social/cultural reasons - but in a Greek and Roman culture, it was difficult for many to consider the reality of how Christ was truly human.....Greeks and Romans were often disgusted at the concept that God/the Divine could take on Flesh.

And my sister and I discussed the ways that the Liturgical Calender/Year was developed to meet the need that Gentiles had in celebrating the ways that Christ developed and grew - in the same way humans are called to (and thus no one has excuse since Christ experienced humanity/did what we're called to). The New Calender Year developed in parallel with what occurred with the Biblical Feasts - although many events did not have a direct correlation with a Biblical Feast that preceded it (i.e. the Birth of Christ, His Circumcision, Baptism by John, etc.) - but it was fine since the Church had freedom to innovate .....just as Christ did and Early Jewish Christian Saints did To have a calendar of Fasts and Feasts going through the life of Christ was a brilliant action that has helped many like it did in the Early Body of Christ

And many in the Early Church pointed out the ways that the Christian Calender year developed coincided wonderfully with the Jewish Feasts done by the Jewish Christians - so there was harmony. For Jewish Christians, it was also an opportunity for them to have another way of expressing worship for the Lord since they could also celebrate alongside Gentiles the life of Christ - all of it based on the concept of precedent.

Of course, many beautiful things can have a human element of mistakes. For my Orthodox Sister noted to me how there's no escaping the fact that others took the development behind the Calender of Fasts and Feasts for the Church (in many parts) as a means of expressing feelings of being discounted by other Jewish Christians (although not all) who were once in dominance and yet not considering how to make room for Gentiles to express things relevant to them - and thus, there was a bit of "Back at ya!!!" when more developments occurred later that tried to erase the dynamic of other Jewish Saints (like the Apostles) being able to appreciate the transformed Biblical Feasts/Holidays that were done radically different than by others not trusting in Christ. .....and this reaction was unfortunate since it ignored where the Apostles/Early Jewish Church never commanded nor asked for all things with the Biblical Feasts to not be appreciated (as they are now memorials/reminders of how Christ has FULFILLED the Body ) - and thankfully, although it has been remembered throughout history, more are better understanding it in our time.

Unfortunately, there'll always be people who react to anything pertaining to Jewish practice - regardless of whether the Apostles in the Early Church/other saints or Christ did so - and claim it's a matter of "defending the faith" to war against it. And ultimately, that's really a matter of people neither understanding what Jewish believers in Orthodoxy noted in the Church.....nor having any real concern for what the Lord did in Jewish culture.

At the worst, it's outright anti-Semitism - ugly as that is - and it's something many in the Church have long had to address when it comes to people supporting it. For it'll always be false when people look to Modern Judaism (which isn't even BIBLICAL Judaism according to what the Saints noted and what was actually present in the time of Christ) - and ignore what it was that Christ actually taught. Whenever others argue against that, they do not realize where they end up in inconsistency with the Orthodoxy of the Apostles and what they valued. Any claim or talk of Chanukah being invalid as something Orthodox believers can appreciate on any level (be it wishing others "Happy Chanukah" or learning from it ) is essentially a matter of simply being uncomfortable with that which is Jewish.


And as others throughout the Orthodox Church have long spoken on appreciating Chanukah - in the same way the Apostles did with the Maccabean Martyrs and what the Lord did - the only ones who'll resist that are those who do not understand what the Apostles were actually about. Ironically, for anyone speaking on/insisting on appreciating it as being "heresy", the reality is that they actually divorced themselves and are heretical according to the Apostles/Christ - as well as other parts of Orthodoxy today.

Thus, to debate the issue without dealing with those basics is a matter of people choosing to believe what they wish BEFORE they actually have it verified - argument via personal incredulity where one chooses to believe something isn't true simply because it goes against their own paradigms they've set up - incredulity meaning “the state of being unable or unwilling to believe something” and invoked when someone simply says, “I don’t believe that” and leaves the argument there ...but that doesn't honor what the Apostles and Early saints were about.

For people tending to argue that "Judaism is a different faith than Christianity", the reality is that what the Apostles practiced was a continuation of what the OT promised - fulfilled in the Messiah - and thus, it'll always be irrelevant what MODERN Judaism did since what they do is not the basis behind what the early Apostles/Christ and the Saints did when it came to living in a Judaic context within 1st Century Israel and later developing further in still appreciating what occurred with the Maccabean Revolt. Modern Judaism via the 21st Century (which denies/ignores Christ as the Messiah) is not the same as Biblical Judaism according to how Christ and the Apostles practiced in continuation with the faith before them that other saints sought. Modern Judaism has added a lot of things to what others understood in Christ's and the Apostles time of the Maccabean account - but it'll always be a false argument looking to that rather than actually seeing what the Apostles and the Early Jewish saints noted on it in their day.

As others have said best, Judaism can exist without Christianity easily......but Christianity truly cannot exist without Judaism in order for it to be consistent with itself. - it was birthed out of Judaism, it shares solidarity with Judaism at multiple points - and its basis for interpretation was rooted in early forms of apologetics/practice that Judaism began.

For with Judaism, if using the term, there’s no escaping the fact that what Christ brought it was originally seen as being WITHIN the system of Judaism itself. Some people say “That’s not true” because of their focus on the word “Christian” that many Jews today demonize when it comes to saying they’re for Judaism – and yet in light of how many Jews have claimed the title while also noting their roots in Judaism, we have to see the etymology behind the term "Christian" , as the Biblical meaning of the name "Christian" is "adherent of Christ." The disciples were formally called Christians first in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and later Agrippa recognized that to believe what Paul preached would have made him a Christian (Acts 26:28).

Peter accepted the name as in itself a basis for persecution (I Peter 4:14-16.). Thus gradually a name imposed by Gentiles who did not believe in Christ was adopted by the disciples of Jesus/Yeshua. Some Jews referred to Christ's followers as "the Nazaene sect" (Acts 24:5), and Paul, when he was himself a persecutor, had identified them as those "who belonged to the Way" (Acts 9:2) - the "Way" being what believers went by (As well as simply being disciples) before ( Acts 9:1-3, Acts 19:8-10, Acts 19:22-24 ) and Acts 24:5 being where Paul is called “the ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.” Here we see the word used in a similar way to that of Josephus in writing of the four sects/schools of Judaism: Pharisees; Sadducess; Essenes; and Zealots.

In context, Christianity (as it originally was in its Jewish form) is really a sect of Judaism...but the problem is that context has been lost. What I mean is if we were in the 1st century right now, I believe it would be evident that all believers would be practicing a sect of Judaism....and for those believers within Judaism that didn't practice the new camp that Christians came into, they'd be quick to realize that many practices were indeed Judaic practices that were altered from other camps to seem different. Again, Judaism can live without Christianity – but Christianity cannot live without Judaism in all respects.

Although the term "Judaism" wasn't even present in the 1st Century Church era, the reality is that what came to be labeled as "Judaism" (if describing Jewish practices based on Rabbinical Judaism and what we see today) was never the same as the Judaism (Jewish practices/customs and culture) of other Jewish believers who trusted in the Lord - they did not have a mindset that being called "Christian" was divorced from being Judaic in practice....as their focus was simply on being disciples. Early Jewish Christianity was always seen as a form of Judaism - even though the form of Judaism it was got deemed "Christianity" ... the distinction between Judaism and Christianity early on was very artificial. Christianity in the early church was initially based in a Jewish culture

And it is with this in mind that the Early Apostles and Early Saints had no problems with Jewish practice so long as it pointed back to Christ....and that also goes for things like appreciating Chanukah.

As the Early Saints and the Apostles/Christ valued the Maccabean Revolt account and noted appreciation for it, one really goes counter to the Church when doing opposite

 

[Gxg (G²)]

.. since we have Christmas, and we celebrate Christ's Nativity, we do celebrate the fulfilled Chanukkah, since the light in Maccabees pointed us toward the Light who came into the world. so the Jewish Fesitval of Lights, like every other OT feast is fulfilled in Christ..

Yep Yep....

 

[ArmyMatt]

Makes sense. The affirmation of the Incarnation can be put in terms of a father holding up his newborn and saying "This is my son!"

plus that affirmation by the Father revealed the True Light for who He is

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But when you started this Happy Hannukah thing, that blew a small thing up into a big thing. Now we have Jewish PRACTICE, not merely Hebrew words, being encouraged on us. People have died defending this faith for two thousand years, even in Hebraic. You seem to not have got the memo: modern Judaism is a different faith that denies Orthodoxy, and Hannukah is a holiday of that religion, just as the Entrance in the Temple of the Theotokos - Mother of God - is a holiday for us. All of your (and G's) words claiming that Hannukah is a valid Orthodox continuation of ancient Jewish tradition don't wash with us. There is no debate; it is simply not true. It's not heresy for a Jew to celebrate it, or greet us with his holiday, but if you insist on it, it IS heresy, precisely because you are Orthodox.

I don't see how we can recognize any communion with Christians who celebrate specifically religious holidays of other faiths. They have turned away from the Church, which tells US what our holy days are.

You are the one who has not got the memo! Have you not read (or purpously ignored) Gxg's posts to you? I have never said YOU must celebrate anything, although that is what you keep trying to imply. You are very quick to yell heretic. Well you are wrong. Jesus, the Apostles as well as Paul say you are. So humble yourself and stop this "judaizing" farce. On one side you claim heresy yet on the other you say Orthodoxy is a continuation of Judaism. You can't have it both ways since, if you claim the Apostles, NT Jewish Saints held these customs, and they were not heretics, right? Or are you saying they were, they were rally not orthodox or is Orthodoxy a new religion with no basis in Judaism at all???

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"Unfortunately, there'll always be people who react to anything pertaining to Jewish practice - regardless of whether the Apostles in the Early Church/other saints or Christ did so - and claim it's a matter of "defending the faith" to war against it. And ultimately, that's really a matter of people neither understanding what Jewish believers in Orthodoxy noted in the Church.....nor having any real concern for what the Lord did in Jewish culture.

At the worst, it's outright anti-Semitism - ugly as that is - and it's something many in the Church have long had to address when it comes to people supporting it. For it'll always be false when people look to Modern Judaism (which isn't even BIBLICAL Judaism according to what the Saints noted and what was actually present in the time of Christ) - and ignore what it was that Christ actually taught. Whenever others argue against that, they do not realize where they end up in inconsistency with the Orthodoxy of the Apostles and what they valued. Any claim or talk of Chanukah being invalid as something Orthodox believers can appreciate on any level (be it wishing others "Happy Chanukah" or learning from it ) is essentially a matter of simply

And as others throughout the Orthodox Church have long spoken on appreciating Chanukah - in the same way the Apostles did with the Maccabean Martyrs and what the Lord did - the only ones who'll resist that are those who do not understand what the Apostles were actually about. Ironically, for anyone speaking on/insisting on appreciating it as being "heresy", the reality is that they actually divorced themselves and are heretical according to the Apostles/Christ - as well as other parts of Orthodoxy today.

Thus, to debate the issue without dealing with those basics is a matter of people choosing to believe what they wish BEFORE they actually have it verified - argument via personal incredulity where one chooses to believe something isn't true simply because it goes against their own paradigms they've set up...but that doesn't honor what the Apostles and Early saints were about.

For people tending to argue that "Judaism is a different faith than Christianity", the reality is that what the Apostles practiced was a continuation of what the OT promised - fulfilled in the Messiah - and thus, it'll always be irrelevant what MODERN Judaism did since what they do is not the basis behind what the early Apostles/Christ and the Saints did when it came to living in a Judaic context within 1st Century Israel and later developing further in still appreciating what occurred with the Maccabean Revolt. Modern Judaism has added a lot of things to what others understood in Christ's and the Apostles time of the Maccabean account - but it'll always be a false argument looking to that rather than actually seeing what the Apostles and the Early Jewish saints noted on it in their day.

As the Early Saints and the Apostles/Christ valued the Maccabean Revolt account and noted appreciation for it, one really goes counter to the Church when doing opposite"

The truth will set you free! Great post!

 

[rusmeister]

I read G's posts - to a point. When I've figured out that the lengthy posts - which make my long ones look quite short - are going off on straw men and mixing and matching issues, I stop. I don't read Spong, I don't listen to Lazar Pohalo, although they can sound quite intelligent and charismatic. When it comes to investing time, I read those that I find truly authoritative. In debate, I put in time and efort with those that really engage my thoughts and take them seriously, even if they disagree.

But you two hold a seriously minority opinion not shared by nearly everyone else. You have set yourselves up as two against TAW. I think in cases like that, you ought to at least listen to and seriously consider that. I'm certainly not positively influenced toward the Hebrew language on the forum, and I don't think it right or wise to ignore the shared opinion of nearly everyone else. As long as this stays in here, I don't mind much, though.

As for anti-Semitism charges, I know what Semites are, and have nothing against them personally, be they Jewish, Arabic, or whatever. I DO think there is such a thing as Judaizing, and that at best, you are skirting dangerously close to it and paying no heed to the danger of being close to that borderline, but instead, flaunting how close you are, like a teenager walking on the edge of a roof, paying no attention to our warnings.

For the rest, although I ask no forgiveness for what I believe right, I do ask your forgiveness for any carelessness on my part in disagreeing with you., or perceived personal insult, which was never intended. There ARE real dangers in these disagreements, and I hope we all want to avoid personal spiritual poisoning, though we think ourselves right.