Happy Hanukkah

[Gxg (G²)]

I have never said YOU must celebrate anything, although that is what you keep trying to imply. You are very quick to yell heretic. Well you are wrong. Jesus, the Apostles as well as Paul say you are. So humble yourself and stop this "judaizing" farce. On one side you claim heresy yet on the other you say Orthodoxy is a continuation of Judaism. You can't have it both ways since, if you claim the Apostles, NT Jewish Saints held these customs, and they were not heretics, right?

Ultimately,

As said before, if we're going to honor the Apostles and Christ in Orthodoxy, they we need to value them in the Orthodoxy they lived out - noting where they and the Early Jewish saints valued the things that others value today (which have already been noted to be things not everyone has to enjoy) and not trying to dismiss that.

And this is something that has been addressed repeatedly on the forum - if others missed it from previous discussions (long before I even came to CF), that's a matter of failing to pay attention ...or, more specifically, giving selective attention to what they already prefer. For others in Orthodoxy (as well as Orthodoxy via expression on TAW ) have long pointed out the ways the Apostles continued on in many things people vehemently against Jewish practice cry against. And in the Church since the time of the Apostles, others sought to address it.

• The Ethiopian Orthodox (which has continued several practices from the OT - from Sabbath to circumcision to kosher and other things) have addressed it.

• The Indian Orthodox have addressed it.

• The Coptic Orthodox have addressed it.

• The Syriac Orthodox Church have addressed - and many within Orthodoxy have done the same.

I repeat: No one can speak on the Orthodox Church if not addressing the many aspects of it that don't line up with the narrative you've been trying to combat, as we seen Orthodoxy handling the issue in many places - from the Syrian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church to Ethiopian Orthodox to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and many others including parts of Eastern Orthhodoxy (as mentioned before in #110 and #115/ #141 ) .....ALL noting appreciation within Orthodoxy for Jewish culture /the meaning of Chanukah and ALL still practicing Jewish customs extensively - there are multiple points of reference throughout the Orthodox Church where one has to ignore practice in order to fight against their own imagery of what they'd like to imagine the Church being.

Those wishing to avoid what the Church has been about simply need to avoid dealing with other branches within the Church to do so - and as there has been consistent refusal to deal with what the Church has said on those issues (or even acknowledge it), it seems rather clear that there's either a lack of true awareness....or a refusal to be aware of it since to do so is something that can make one feel not as secure in their original stance.

Other Orthodox have noted this before when it came to them studying many things within Orthodoxy - having one set of assumptions based on what they were taught....and then realizing where many things they advocated weren't really according to what the Apostles noted. What they were dogmatic about with Eastern Christianity could only occur if they chose to focus on ONE part of it - and so they did so due to how strongly they wanted to hold to what they wished. But when they chose to address facts for what they were, they realized that it wasn't something that harmed them in their Orthodoxy - it simply made their view more complete. And that's part of why I am really intrigued (though not surprised) seeing how much there has been fighting against many things that were basic to St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Barnabas, St. James (leader of the Jewish Church in Jerusalem), St. John and so many others.............things the Scriptures pointed out and that the Orthodox Church carried on in tradition.

In many respects, when one advocates a mindset such as what you've been trying to address, you end up dealing predominately with what the Orthodox Church had to combat when it came to the Heresy of Marcionism (- something which was tackled before in-depth as well as the context of that heresy and something which tends to crop up rather easily based on misunderstanding of the concept of Judaic practice as well...). When it came to discussing what Judaizing was according to the Early Church, many of those individuals also had the same mentality when assuming that valuing that from the OT the Lord gave/appreciating it was a matter of either "judaizing" - or being close to it. Of course, there were plenty of the mindset that they valued the OT and NT together - but in practice, when it came to despising all things pertaining to Jewish practice done by Jewish believers, they ended up living out the echoes of what Marcionism was about.

But the Apostles addressed that and thus, it is ironic whenever one sees it develop in modern times.

As said before, when it comes to the Church, it is not something forgotten. The Apostles were not herectical for noting where they were in continuation with the rest of the saints preceeding them - nor was Christ, who supported many things and never waged any type of war for the saints to be against them.

It has been said that anything coming up in support of your thesis is a matter of "strawmen" and "mixing categories" - although an argument via assertion doesn't really do anything when there has been no evidence dealt with. It's like someone being called "lazy" for refusing to work on Sunday when their work schedule had them specifically assigned to be off at that time - and when asking for others to give evidence that their schedule was different, the only response is "You just don't care for truth!! Since when is work bad?!!" and missing the central issue of where they failed to give real verification. That's the dynamic of Argument by assertion - the logical fallacy where someone tries to argue a point by merely asserting that it is true, regardless of contradiction...or doing a reduction of an argument to make it appear ridiculous and they fight against that (which is a pity) - as mocking a claim does not show that it is false....just like it'd not be taken seriously if one said "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"

Whenever it comes to one claiming "strawmen" or " and "mixing and matching issues" for others addressing what the Church has said or dealing with double-standards, it is really a matter of anything they disagree with needing to be labeled negative in order to feel better on their own position.

And it really isn't worth taking seriously when there's resorting to making arguments based on appeals to emotion, false scenarios and making anything out to be opposite of what others said. From claiming others don't believe in absolute truth for saying there are differences in Dialect to saying "judaizing" for Jewish customs appreciated/practiced by those within Orthodoxy (despite where the Apostles/Early Saints spoke on the beauty of such things and practiced them ) to trying to argue that others disagreeing with you/your sentiments (or others holding them ) are a "minority" in Orthodoxy..............already directly opposite of what has actually happened in the history of the Orthodox Church since much of it never held to you.


As said before, if one wants to fight against the Church, as said before, they are more than free to - but trying to re-imagine it as one wishes isn't the same as dealing with it for what it is

Proverbs 11:1 and Proverbs 16:11 and Proverbs 20:23
Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight.​

And on what the Church notes, there have already been other Orthodox here noting the issue in times past - so it's interesting whenever you see people choosing to focus selectively on people rather than deal with the whole of it. TAW has had plenty of discussions - some disagree, some agree and others are not that concerned. When overreacting, there'll always be a dynamic of making things seem bigger than what they are - and that needs to be addressed seriously.

At the end of it all, you cannot change the minds of people wishing to believe what they believe - and as such, it really shouldn't be a focus. One should be faithful to the Truth they know and keep on rolling - life is too short

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hanukkah, never forget Divine calls | abbaa

Nov 23, 2013, Holodomor Day 2013 - Prayer for the Victims - YouTube

Sukkot 2013-5774/ כ×[bless and do not curse]סת סוכות ש×[bless and do not curse]ת תשע''ד - YouTube

Concerning the article you posted from Fr. Alexander, I didn't know of how Orthodox priest Father James Bernstein did an excellent study on the issue via his book Surprised by Christ. Being Jewish himself and coming out of Modern Judaism after seeing the ways Orthodoxy echoed the Judaism of Christ's day/what the Hebrews advocated, Bernstein did some wonderful study on the subject.

As mentioned more in-depth elsewhere, Father Bernstein’s most valuable contribution in the book, to my mind, is an account of his quest to trace the history of the original Jewish Church in Jerusalem, headed by St. James. Studying sources from the New Testament to Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew to the 3rd and 4th century historians Eusebius and Epiphanius, to St. Jerome in the 5th century and onward.


And others within Orthodoxy have pointed out the same for ages - if aware of one of the excellent interview with Father Patrick Reardon on what it's like for Jews coming to faith in the Orthodox Church.

There's also an excellent review as it concerns the history if Jewish conversion in Orthodoxy (from the time of the Apostles onward) and Jewish Christianity in Apostolic times...the ways Jewish Christianity developed in contrast to Gentile Christianity (both camps being Christianity but having a different emphasis on certain dynamics). There are other excellent works, of course, that have been a blessing. One is Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... By Ray Pritz. This work concerns a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance). Another excellent is "The History Of Jewish Christianity: From the First to the Twentieth Century"

Moreover, ‘Christians’ Celebrating ‘Jewish’ Festivals of Autumn by Daniel Stoekl - one of the best researchers/specialists in early Judaism (Qumran, Rabbinics) and early Christianity (300 BC-500 AD). He has done other excellent academic reviews such as On Trees, Waves and Cytokinesis: Shifting Paradigms in Early (and Modern) Jewish-Christian Relations (as it concerns examining the genesis of Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism from Second Temple Judaism coming from biology - cytokinesis ) - but the review he did on Christians with the Fall Feasts was very spot on.

The article surveys evidence for Christians and Christian Jews observing festivals of autumn (New Year, Tabernacles and mostly the Day of Atonement) - and it also addresses Paul, Hebrews, Luke-Acts, Hegesippus, Origen, Chrysostom and Abd Al-Jabbar as well as polemics.

According to Daniel Stoekl, one can perhaps distinguish 3 progressive stages in the perception of such religious behavior as the observance of Yom Kippur by followers of Christ: 1) normative (Luke) or acceptable (Paul); 2) peculiar, Judaeo-Christian but tolerable (Justin Martyr); and 3) un-Christian and prohibited (Diognet, Origen).

Daniel did an excellent job demonstrating how there is a clear difference between the first century and later times regarding the social status of Jesus-followers observing Yom Kippur. For in the first century, some leaders regarded the fast as normative (Luke-Acts) or acceptable (Paul) - and in later times, those observing the fast were probably ordinary Christians while those who defined Yom Kippur as un-Christian belonged to the leaders of the mainstream.

But in the end scheme of things, there is no escaping the fact that Jewish Christianity in Apostolic times was a matter of having a native Jewish Church - and with that came other things people seem to have issue with today. ...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hanukkah, never forget Divine calls | abbaa

Concerning what Fr. James Bernstein has noted when it came to his journey into Orthodoxy out of what he grew up with in Modern Rabbinical Judaism - and sharing on the Jewish Roots of Orthodox Worship:

Fr. Bernstein a Disciple of Christ at St. Elijah

Fr. Bernstein Love and Salvation at St. Elijah

The Jewish Roots of Orthodox Christian Worship - Fr. A.J. Bernstein

Of course, Fr. Bernstein has done plenty (if seeing Fr James Bernstein's Lectures and his writings on how Church tradition developed in regards to the Scriptures) as it concerns bridging the gap for others to understand the ways that Jews appreciated Orthodoxy and what it did in representing the practices of the Church ...one of the reasons I've worked with/seen other Jewish believers who tend to journey into Orthodoxy above other camps when seeing continuation and development O

 

[ArmyMatt]

no one is talking about the Jewish roots of Orthodox (and since this is the EO forum, the Syriac, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc evidences don't matter since they are not in our communion) practice or worship, merely that Orthodox Christians should not be wishing a happy Chanukkah to other Orthodox Christians. I highly doubt this time of year that Fr James, Met Anthony Bloom, or any other famous Jewish convert would have. maybe Fr James does in those vids, since I can't see them, but if so that is definitely the minority position.

so howsabout we just wish each other what is on our OWN calendar?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

no one is talking about the Jewish roots of Orthodox practice or worship, merely that Orthodox Christians should not be wishing a happy Chanukkah to other Orthodox Christians.

Not according to what Yeshua Ha Derek already noted when it came to the focus of the OP and the issue other Orthodox already pointed out when it came to appreciating Chanukah - or the morality thereof, just as it is with Birthdays and other Holidays (i.e. Thanksgiving, Halloween, 4th of July, etc.)

It was the focus on the Jewish Roots of Orthodoxy that was behind why many DIDN'T take issue with Yeshua Ha Derek wishing "Happy Chanukah" (although unconventional for many in the forum - and something that would have been best done elsewhere when knowing your audience).....and many never felt that it was wrong for other Orthodox believers to appreciate what the holiday was about. As others already noted:

Happy 4th day of Hanukkah to you, Yeshua!

thanks Mariya
Chag Sameach!

I would not doubt many of the Jews who belonged to the Church in Jerusalem and Christian Jews in the diaspora continued to celebrate traditional Jewish feasts (as the faith was developing). Even after the resurrection the Apostles worshipped and prayed in the Temple. However I find it highly unlikely that the Church catholic celebrated the Jewish feasts, especially as the Church demographically became Gentile.

Christianity is not a new faith, it is around 3000 years old. In Christ is the fulfilment of the requirement of the law.
To ask for the prayers of St Anne but not [St] Moses is inconsistent. Our faith is an ancient faith.

We (as Gentiles) are grafted by the vine keeper onto the ancient stock of Israel.

The celebration of the old festivals are not necessary in the church's outlook. To equate Judaism with classical paganism, is either tragically bad education, or anti-semiticsm.
I am pleased I do not share the Protestant and dichomatising mind of many (mainly USofA) posters on here.

Yes, we have the fullness of faith, but let us not use it for hatred, bitterness, and control of others.
Let love conquer, not partisan thinking.

Thank you Yeshua.

It is a deep joy to remember the history of our forefathers' love for God and the reciprocal and super abundant love which God showed upon them.

Though all has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus and the Church resplendent exists in the fullness of eternity calling us in this world to the good things to come; let us never forget but rather delight in the faithfulness of the all-faithful God toward His faithful children.

The ancient and scriptural hymn of light is apt for quoting in relation to Hanukkah:
"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace : according to thy word.
For mine eyes have seen : thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared : before the face of all people;
To be a light to lighten the Gentiles : and to be the glory of thy people Israel."


Let us be strong in the faith, joyful in the faith, and always living as light bearing icons of Christ, sharing in that self-same light as which illumines the saints before the Throne.

Modern rabbinic Judaism did not begin until after the Temple was destroyed. All Jewish Feasts occurred before then. So they are our Feast too. That was my point. It just did not appear out of nowhere...

I believe in proper context we can study & learn about Hanukkah & even consider its relation to Nativity but understand that the Lord fulfilled this in John 10: 22-23. A relationship between the light burning in the Temple as accounted for in Maccabees fulfilled with the light of the Lord burning in the darkness (John 1:1-5) & other associations seems evident but these have been fulfilled. Is it trying to have a greater awareness of these within tradition that you wish to promote? This seems fine & could help overcome anti Semitic tendencies that can arise.

If you are a Jewish convert to Orthodoxy, I don't think it would be nearly as big a deal as if you were just wanting to celebrate Hanukkah to "get back to the basics" or something. If you are Jewish, no one expects you to abandon your culture.

​

From there came later discussion that evolved into discussing whether what the Early Apostles/Saints did with celebrating Jewish customs like Chanukah was something other Orthodox believers had freedom to do today - for they never saw it as being opposite of what it meant to be Orthodox.

And what was discussed was the reality of cultural differences since many in Orthodoxy have noted NO issue wishing others "Happy Chanukah" - be it to other Jews celebrating or Orthodox Christians (particularly Jewish Christians) who value it ...or appreciating it. For many here in TAW, it is not something they'd prefer - but that was used as a basis for saying NO ONE in Orthodoxy prefers it and saying that wishing Happy Chanukah was a matter of demanding that Gentiles HAVE to celebrate it (false )..... and that is why others addressed it/discussed what actually happens culturally around the world and in everyday context with culture.

I see Orthodox believers saying thanks to others who wished them "Happy Chanukah" and they moved on after wishing them likewise - they didn't have to commemorate it in order to note appreciation or see respect in wishing it. They didn't have a meltdown on the issue

They understood how there's nothing within the Calender Year(EO or otherwise) that says one has to commemorate Hannukah - and yet they knew how the holiday itself was not commanded by the Lord anyhow .....it was simply a time developed for remembrance of God preserving his own - just as we do commemorate the Maccabean Martyrs on August 1/14....and objectively understand what the celebration is about in light of how 2 Maccabees was believed to be inspired Scripture by the early Church ( affirmed as canonical by Origen, Augustine, Jerome, and a lot of other Fathers) and how the Jewish holiday Hanukkah celebrates the Maccabees' re-dedication of the Temple (as well as setting the basis for later practices...such as how it shows that the pious Jews of Israel believed in praying for the dead and Judas Maccabbeus calls for the praying ....the basis behind why early Christians prayed for the dead discussed in #48 ) - with both First and Second Maccabees calling for Chanukah to be celebrated - the only Scriptures which do so - and Jesus Christ Himself celebrating Hanukkah in John 10:22, with HIM being the focus for early believers since He was the Light.

The Early Apostles/leaders of the Church also understood this - and it's why it was important for Jewish Christians....even though Gentile Christians did not have any need to be concerned on it. For as said before, Jewish Christianity in Apostolic times was a matter of having a native Jewish Church - and with that came other things people seem to have issue with today when Gentiles became more dominant..

If others don't appreciate Chanukah, that's their choice - but it is not (nor has it ever been ) the universal law/rule that no Orthodox believer is allowed to wish others such just as there's no rule saying Orthodox believers can't say "Happy 4th of July" .....

(and since this is the EO forum, the Syriac, Ethiopian, Coptic, etc evidences don't matter since they are not in our communion)

Claiming "This is the EO forum" really has no relevance nor basis to discussing ORTHODOXY as it concerns the actual history of the Church...something well noted by other EOs when it comes to not only dealing with EO but also addressing the reality of what others in EO have long said on the same issue when it comes to Apostolic Christianity in all branches. We already did precedent for this on multiple occasions:

Kallistos Ware gives an outline of the recent talks between theologians from both the Eastern and the Oriental Churches in The Orthodox Church. In doctrinal discussions in Aarhus, Denmark, for example, leading EO and OO theologians found themselves "in full agreement on the essence of the Christological dogma".

So while in the Orthodox world some people might consider the OO to hold a clearly heretical Christology, such an opinion is far from being THE one officially correct position.

my church (Antioch) is pretty pronounced in its acceptance of the OO, and so it cannot be said that the OO are universally rejected either.

I hate to be the voice of the campus radical, but I have met many Orientals who were more Orthodox in spirit than some of my Eastern brethren.

The reality of the matter is that there were already other EO who had no real issue with it - and part of the focus was addressing the reality of how many within EO already had no issue appreciating the basis Chanukah came from and how it plays out in examination.

It'd be incomplete trying to focus solely on Syriac, Ethiopian and Coptic or Indian Orthodox Church/ Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church ( who've already done plenty with EOs on numerous occasions as have other OOs) ) without addressing where EO have already noted agreement with them multiple times - as communion has no bearing on the dynamic of where others have already been noted to be with Orthodox practice even though there are disagreements with certain councils - and moreover, it's incomplete seeing how often they've been discussed on TAW forum when it comes to solidarity (be it in persecution or, for that matter, their own struggles EO supported).

One cannot argue on the basis of what is convenience in one moment - and then easy to dismiss in the next.

For if one wanted to utilize the argument of "Well, the OOs aren't in communion", then NO One within TAW would have any business bringing them up at any point for discussion (including references to other Saints from OO - from St Ephraim's in his works to St. Anthony to St. Isaac the Syrian and several others ) when discussing other battles Orthodox are having to deal with (be it in discussions such as Why we are divided till now ?!! or Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II or Your View on the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonians) or Can I be your fav. Orthodox heretic? and many others noting where many OO are living sober and prayerful lives - in faithfulness to the Apostles/Early Church ).

There have been dialogues/meetings on many issues between Oriential and Eastern - as well as others involved - with there needing to be unification at many points and yet there's still a healthy recognition of where Unity is present (as one thing that is refreshing in Eastern" Christianity is that many things are not dogmatic and there's room for diverse views when considering Apostolic history)

Concerning the unity of Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, Rev John H Erickson, Dean shared on this in Beyond Dialogue: The Quest for Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Unity Today and Fr. Thomas Hopko. did likewise regarding how there's The One True Church - not EO or OO exclusively. The Church.

Here

I highly doubt this time of year that Fr James, Met Anthony Bloom, or any other famous Jewish convert would have. maybe Fr James does in those vids, since I can't see them, but if so that is definitely the minority position.

There've been plenty of groups outside of Fr. James and Metropolitian Anthony Bloom who spoke on the issue in regards to what the Church has noted. Choosing to doubt is not a surprise - although as it is, doubting isn't the same as demonstrating throughout history that significant branches of the Orthodox Church never appreciated Chanukah....spoke on it in examination of what it teaches believers.....or said that it was forbidden to acknowledge as something the Apostles/Early Church had no issue with.

We cannot do argumentation of personal incredulity where we claim we're doubtful of something and therefore it's not true - it has already been noted where significant parts of the Orthodox Church already appreciated the Holiday - and that'd not even require one wishing "Happy Chanakuh" since that phrase is modern....but the spirit of noting what the Maccabean revolt/Martyrs were about is behind why Chanukah was even deemed important to begin with. Fr. James has long noted appreciation for what it was that he learned in Judaism and showing the ways early believers also appreciated it - even though they had different emphasis. So to argue on the basis of "Well, that's a minority position" isn't accurate - and in many ways, it's highly subjective.

so howsabout we just wish each other what is on our OWN calendar?

Those who wish to do that are more than able to - as has already been noted. And as others have noted, those who wish things that were never on the calendar to begin with (i.e. Birthdays, Thanksgiving, April Fools, Veteran's Day, etc.) are able to do the same - just as other Orthodox who do enjoy wishing "Happy Chanukah" could do so with other Orthodox they agree to.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ultimately - for anyone who has this question of whether it is ok to honor / celebrate holidays such as Hannukah - the safest thing to do would be to ask your priest or spiritual father / mother. No one on this forum can give as helpful or as valid an answer. Discussion and clarification is a huge help on the forums - but a priest / spiritual mentor's opinion should carry the most weight.

Talking with your priest or spiritual father/mother does help a lot when it comes to not judging others who may differ from who we are - as if we know the hearts and intents of others.

 

[ArmyMatt]

my only issue was that it was odd. I found no personal problem with it, it just doesn't make sense. and the difference between Chanukkah and (say) Veteran's Day is that one is a religious holiday, and one is national and secular.

so again, it would just seem as weird to me if there was an image of an Orthodox priest annointing his doors with Lamb's blood.

We cannot do argumentation of personal incredulity where we claim we're doubtful of something and therefore it's not true - it has already been noted where significant parts of the Orthodox Church already appreciated the Holiday - and that'd not even require one wishing "Happy Chanakuh" since that phrase is modern....but the spirit of noting what the Maccabean revolt/Martyrs were about is behind why Chanukah was even deemed important to begin with. Fr. James has long noted appreciation for what it was that he learned in Judaism and showing the ways early believers also appreciated it - even though they had different emphasis. So to argue on the basis of "Well, that's a minority position" isn't accurate - and in many ways, it's highly subjective.

no one questions our appreciation for it, we celebrate the Maccabean Martyrs on their feast day. plus we celebrate the Nativity of Christ which fulfilled Chanukkah. so we do have an appreciation.

I enjoyed reading Fr James' book and it gave me a better understanding of our Orthodox roots. so I know his appreciation, you don't need to keep bringing it up.

as far as the significant parts of the Orthodox Church...? what parts? if you mean OO, then I am sorry but OO are not Orthodox, or else they would be in communion with EO (I know for the OO it is the other way around).

From there came later discussion that evolved into discussing whether what the Early Apostles/Saints did with celebrating Jewish customs like Chanukah was something other Orthodox believers had freedom to do today - for they never saw it as being opposite of what it meant to be Orthodox

well, since the Apostles were still Jews, is there any evidence (and this is me being serious) that they celebrated Chanukkah and wished it for others? I would seriously like to know and this is not sarcasm.

and having the freedom to do it today is not the issue. the issue is if it is appropriate to do. no one is saying that we should not honor our theological roots in the Jews. the question is HOW to do it.

and please, some brevity. your massive posts are a workout to read.

 

[GregConstantine]

"and please, some brevity. your massive posts are a workout to read."

Please also avoid writing run on sentences and using the passive voice so much. Then again, you may not do any of this because you are convinced there are no standards in writing English (many English teachers will disagree though, and I agree with them, that there are standards).

 

[ArmyMatt]

"and please, some brevity. your massive posts are a workout to read."

Please also avoid writing run on sentences and using the passive voice so much. Then again, you may not do any of this because you are convinced there are no standards in writing English (many English teachers will disagree though, and I agree with them, that there are standards).

I am sorry, but I don't follow

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I read G's posts - to a point. When I've figured out that the lengthy posts - which make my long ones look quite short - are going off on straw men and mixing and matching issues, I stop. I don't read Spong, I don't listen to Lazar Pohalo, although they can sound quite intelligent and charismatic. When it comes to investing time, I read those that I find truly authoritative. In debate, I put in time and efort with those that really engage my thoughts and take them seriously, even if they disagree.

But you two hold a seriously minority opinion not shared by nearly everyone else. You have set yourselves up as two against TAW. I think in cases like that, you ought to at least listen to and seriously consider that. I'm certainly not positively influenced toward the Hebrew language on the forum, and I don't think it right or wise to ignore the shared opinion of nearly everyone else. As long as this stays in here, I don't mind much, though.

As for anti-Semitism charges, I know what Semites are, and have nothing against them personally, be they Jewish, Arabic, or whatever. I DO think there is such a thing as Judaizing, and that at best, you are skirting dangerously close to it and paying no heed to the danger of being close to that borderline, but instead, flaunting how close you are, like a teenager walking on the edge of a roof, paying no attention to our warnings.

For the rest, although I ask no forgiveness for what I believe right, I do ask your forgiveness for any carelessness on my part in disagreeing with you., or perceived personal insult, which was never intended. There ARE real dangers in these disagreements, and I hope we all want to avoid personal spiritual poisoning, though we think ourselves right.

I read what you wrote Rus and respect your opinion, even though I think you are WAY overstepping with the "Judaizing" witch hunting. As I have said previously, I meant no harm nor was I requiring anything of anyone here. I am a Christian and I am not trying to turn anyone into a Jew. You keep claiming that your opinion is the majority here. I do not know if that is true. It may be. However I HAVE gotten PMs from other Orthodox people here (only 2 of them have actually posted here) that definitely do not agree with your position at all. We are all Orthodox and come from differing backgrounds, but in Orthodoxy, that IS normal

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm talking to G, he writes these long sentences and uses the passive voice, contributing to the lenghtiness of his posts.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm talking to G, he writes these long sentences and uses the passive voice, contributing to the lenghtiness of his posts.

oh my bad, I thought you meant me. and I know I don't follow all English rules as well.

 

[GregConstantine]

"However I HAVE gotten PMs from other Orthodox people here (only 2 of them have actually posted here) that definitely do not agree with your position at all."

So what? There are some Orthodox people who believe abortion and homosexual activity is just hunky dory, so does that mean those two things are ok? Our faith is a revealed faith, passed down to us by the Apostles, not determined by democratic vote.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

my only issue was that it was odd. I found no personal problem with it, it just doesn't make sense. and the difference between Chanukkah and (say) Veteran's Day is that one is a religious holiday..

Of course one feels it's odd - just as others found it odd in Orthodoxy for Orthodox to act as if no other Orthodox in large numbers or everyday context ever wished Happy Chanukkah to one another or other people.

This is the dynamic of cultural differences - and the reality of the people one chooses to interact with...and the basis behind why there were battles within the Church on similar issues, from Christmas to Halloween.

Saying Chanukkah and Veteran's day are different in the religious sense - as many have noted for decades - is subjective since the reality is that patriotism has a very high religious aspect to it (with Christianity being used to justify many things done in the name of patriotism - and the United States religion and politics are so inextricably linked many say it's not inappropriate to think of patriotism itself as a kind of religion ).....and beyond that, IMHO, it's splitting hairs trying to say "Well, this is spiritual and that's secular" when the bottom line reality is that there was the reality of that Secular/Sacred divide being debated throughout Church History when seeing the scope of what Christ rules over.

No one says "Oh, well Thursday is named after a Norse God named Thor but it's just a secular day" - the reality is that all things are spiritual and there's a religious aspect to it when seeing the basis behind how things were seen.

it would just seem as weird to me if there was an image of an Orthodox priest annointing his doors with Lamb's blood.

Of course no Orthodox priest anoints his doors with Lamb's blood and neither did Orthodox Jewish Christians (or the Apostles) who celebrated Passover from a FULFILLED perspective - different from how others in the Judaic context of their day did if they didn't trust in Messiah ...and it was the same with Chanukah when it came to the remembrance of it/practices the Early Jewish Church did in regards to it. This is not hidden nor is hard to understand when examining context.

we celebrate the Maccabean Martyrs on their feast day. plus we celebrate the Nativity of Christ which fulfilled Chanukkah. so we do have an appreciation.

In the same manner, when it comes to appreciation of it, no one misunderstands fulfillment of it in Christ when it comes to other holidays. The Nativity of Christ fulfills it in one sense - even though the name "Chanukah" was what described one level (preview) of what was to come. And thus, there should be no more issue with saying Happy Chanukah (even though it's not conventional to some) than there'd be with saying "Pentecost is wonderful!!" when seeing what the scriptures discussed on it and how the Early Church handled it in Acts 1.

However, for others to question people's appreciation for the Nativity of Christ or the Orthodox Calender (despite where other Orthodox have already noted otherwise) simply because of saying a phrase/wishing "Happy Chanukah" s a problem - and it is on that point others discussed. In the same way debate occurs on Birthdays and how the Church has had differing views on it.

I enjoyed reading Fr James' book and it gave me a better understanding of our Orthodox roots. so I know his appreciation, you don't need to keep bringing it up.

You already brought it up after I was speaking originally to Yeshua Ha Derek - and you commented on my post by saying:

ArmyMatt
I highly doubt this time of year that Fr James, Met Anthony Bloom, or any other famous Jewish convert would have maybe Fr James does in those vids, since I can't see them, but if so that is definitely the minority position.

​

Thus, if you didn't comment on it questioning James stance on Chanukah, I would not have responded. As you kept bringing it up, I chose to respond addressing it - but if you don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up further. As it is, no one said you didn't appreciate the man - and you already know better since we already discussed the individual before in previous conversation when you brought him up as seen in #3

I've as far as the significant parts of the Orthodox Church...? what parts? if you mean OO, then I am sorry but OO are not Orthodox, or else they would be in communion with EO (I know for the OO it is the other way around).

And as said before, sorry - but the thought you advocated isn't really substantiated in the history of the Orthodox Church - nor something of official policy at any juncture of what others in leadership have noted. Not being in communion is not the same as saying they are not Orthodox - and the OO have noted the same with the EOs. Orthodox confess ONE holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - yet they also realize the issue of unity despite differences - it's not a scenario where it is either EO, OO, or neither as opposed to both being Orthodox ...and it's not a matter of one being Orthodox in reality and the other only in name.

As already noted, Kallistos Ware gives an outline of the recent talks between theologians from both the Eastern and the Oriental Churches in The Orthodox Church. ..and in doctrinal discussions in Aarhus, Denmark, for example, leading EO and OO theologians found themselves "in full agreement on the essence of the Christological dogma".

Again, the reality is that other EOs have noted the same things as OO when it comes to specific views so the "We're not in communion" argument only goes so far when it comes to addressing what other EO leaders/parishes have long noted on the issue.

Even other EO have pointed out plainly that Jewish Christianity in Apostolic times was a matter of having a native Jewish Church - and the Apostles/Early Saints advocated the beauty of such things and practiced them.

the Apostles were still Jews, is there any evidence (and this is me being serious) that they celebrated Chanukkah and wished it for others? ..Having the freedom to do it today is not the issue. the issue is if it is appropriate to do. no one is saying that we should not honor our theological roots in the Jews. the question is HOW to do it.

Having the freedom to do so and trying to see that as whether it's appropriate is more than understood - it's what the Early Jewish Church often noted when it came to the Gentiles wanting to innovate things not found in Biblical practice of the saints before (prior to the new calendar developing). And that is something that addresses the question of HOW to do it - there was already example given by the Apostles and the Early Saints/Jesus.

Concerning the question of evidence (and this is me being serious) that they celebrated Chanukkah or had no issue with others, others already took the time to seriously detail the matter and address it (i.e. references, quotations, the writings of the fathers, etc.) So respectfully, I don't plan on going back to address the issue again in light of earlier commentary. If wanting to see in-depth addressing of your question, I'd recommend going back to what was given since I have shared on the issue more explicitly here and here...as well as in #62 /#182


With that said, we already understand that in the New Testament some replacements took place.

For every time there is a day associated with celebrating the Lord’s Supper, it is the first day of the week. ...Sunday...rather than on the traditional Sabbath/Saturdday ...even though the Ethiopian Orthodox Church still has it where the Shabbat is still honoured - technically, no fasting on Saturday (it means, in current practice, that even Lent is lightened up a little).

As far as we know, every believer in that early time (at least, every Jewish believer) kept BOTH the Biblical Sabbath AND a first-day celebration. ...and this was all a part of development occurring.



And we see this even further in the Calender Year development. For the Jewish Christians (concerning the Seven Feasts of Israel ), there were three pilgrimage feasts:

• Passover
  • Pesach
  • Massot
  • First Fruits
• Pentecost – Shavuot
• Feast of Tabernacles – Sukkot

And other important feasts, but not every possible feast, were the following:

• Rosh Ha-Shanah – New Year Festival
• Yom Kippur – Day of Atonement
• First Fruits - Beginning of the Harvest
• Chag HaMatzot - Festival of Unleavened Bread
• Hanukkah – Feast of Lights or Feast of the Dedication of the Temple, commemorating events in the Book of Maccabees
• Purim – Feast of Lots, commemorating the events of the Book of Esther

Those things all took on a different level of practice when Christ came - people no longer made sacrifices of Atonement on Yom Kippur because Christ was our Atonement - although the day became one they remembered the Lord's deliverance. And Sukkot became a time of remembering how the Lord tabernacle with us just as they set up booths in the wilderness. First Fruits became a time of remembering how Christ was the First Fruits of the Resurrection - with it being the case that it so happened to occur on Sunday anyhow.....and during Pentecost (giving even more dimensions to where the Holidays all POINTED to Christ throughout the OT and into the NT).


The feasts - and the entire Old Testament - are fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:26). And we should teach about how the Old Testament feasts were fulfilled in the New Testament. For the Feasts and laws of the Lord were a tutor (Galatians 3:24) to lead the Israelites to the Savior - The apostle Paul described the Hebrew calendar as a "mere shadow" of what was to come (Colossians 2:16-17) ...with the Apostle not condemning those Jewish Christians who wished to continue celebrating the Jewish holidays since others were exalting those things in/of themselves as if they could bring salvation - and Paul's focus was on asserting that the festivals lead to Christ in what they pointed to.

And this is why the Early Church had no issue either discussing that directly during the times of those feasts occurring - or wishing good will during those times since they had the perspective of Christ (as the Book of Hebrews points out in-depth).

Christmas has been fulfilled, but we still celebrate that - and Easter has been fulfilled and yet it's still celebrated - for the fulfillment in the acts of Jesus should only serve to EMPHASIZE the purposes underlying those feasts, not obviate the necessity of them in what can be learned - and this is why the Jewish Christians had no issues participating in them with new lenses and applications.

This was not a battle, however, for Gentile believers. In a development fully and completely parallel to the development of the various Jewish feast days, the great Christian feast days created harmonized with the Jewish feasts in one great detail.....for they demonstrate the deliverance of God, but through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whereas what the Jewish Christians had grown up with in the Biblical Feasts was focused on celebrating God’s deliverance in great historical events, the new feasts were developed to celebrate God’s deliverance in both the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ and in the lives of the Theotokos, Our Lady, as well as other figures important to New Testament salvation history such as the Forerunner, St. John the Baptist.

This innovation was a demonstration of how the Christian liturgical year follows the same philosophical underpinning as the Jewish liturgical year, even though they were both oriented around the Messiah from different perspectives/emphasis.

And St. Paul clearly gave permission for the Gentile Christians to not have to follow the Jewish calendar. It is the case that St John and his school, at least until the 2nd Century, were being more “Jewish” in their observance. What changed many thigns was that in the second century, a council of Rabbis declared a Jewish General to be the Messiah and he led a revolt against Rome.

Although the Christians found themselves on both Sides in this war, split between Jewish Christians and their Gentile compatriots and Christians trapped in the Roman Army, both groups of Christians could agree that Bar Kochba was not the Messiah. But afterward, Christian support of Jewish claims suddenly vanished - commemorated in the 19th benediction against traitors, still said in the synagogue liturgy.....and from that moment forward the idea of doing anything on the Jewish pattern was no longer really a viable option within the now-largely Gentile Christian community.

But the Gentiles continued to develop their own festivals and ideas at this point (a blessing from the Lod) - but the Jewish Christians never ceased in also valuing what the Lord gave.

please, some brevity. your massive posts are a workout to read

I understand - and I hope it's realized that's something I keep in mind as best as possible.

Brevity is not an issue seeing that it was already given repeatedly at several points. It is something I've sought to be intentional on various times (including here) - seeking to weigh the extent of how to cover issues. Thus, respectfully, if one doesn't want to read, by no means do I expect you to - there are plenty of others doing so and it's them which are the focus really. I've already had to deal with seeing massive posts I've had to read throughout TAW and by several - and sometimes, simply realizing where some issues were addressed in-depth because of Double Barreled questions tackling complex issues.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"and please, some brevity. your massive posts are a workout to read."

Please also avoid writing run on sentences and using the passive voice so much. Then again, you may not do any of this because you are convinced there are no standards in writing English (many English teachers will disagree though, and I agree with them, that there are standards).

Originally Posted by GregConstantine I'm talking to G, he writes these long sentences and uses the passive voice, contributing to the lenghtiness of his posts

Greg,

Talking on English isn't the same as addressing the facts of what the OP is centered on. It's already the case where several things were said without addressing key factors that deal with context (Proverbs 19:2, Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 18:13, etc.) - and choosing to engage in focusing on side issues like grammar is the nature of red herring...

​

Sorry, I'm not biting so long as that's what you're putting forward.


Seeing that they've already noted there is to be NO personal commentary on posters (as that's ad-hominem) and you've yet to show either your own English as perfect or the standard, it is inconsequential talking on English teachers since many have already spoken on the dynamic. Be it with broken phrases or lack of commas and a host of other things you already did several points - in addition to not understanding the dynamics of conversational idioms and slang (all of which were already handled in #130 ).

This is a basic within linguistics, Bruh. And there've been multiple others who've spoken on the issue when it comes to slang or online vernacular (as Linguist John McWhorter accurately points out in his book and as he alongside others note when it comes to phrases utilized in the world of cyber space ).

It's silly nitpicking when it comes to the reality of informal correspondence.If I happen to see someone say "alot" as opposed to "a lot", the general gist of what they are trying to say isn't hard for me to understand. Obviously, it would not be something to use if in a more formal setting. For the Columbia Guide to Standard American English calls alot “substandard” and notes that it is “increasingly found in Informal correspondence and student writing” and “has as yet received no sanction in print except on the op-ed and sports pages." In another example, there is a major difference between "...a part...." and "...apart...."

Although when it comes to conversational English and being relaxed on major points, that has never been something that has stopped you or anyone else from being understood for every time you've used "apart" to describe connection and people got where you were coming from rather than being nit-picky because you didn't space out the word every time you were posting something.

Seeing as no one is under any pressure to be writing anything like research papers to be peer-reviewed or an essay to be graded for grammar, it's not really something I'm concerned for when typing it out in informal settings. To me, all on the boards have some areas where the grammar isn't flawless, although I tend to keep quiet on it since it's not an essential to understanding where they're coming from...nor is it the end of the world....unless, of course, a grammar hunt begins and every spelling flaw is pointed out in every member.

We're not in an English classroom - you don't speak perfect English - and it has never been the case that others don't universally understand since there have been multiple things repeatedly noted which others understood and yet you missed as if it never occurred. Additionally, as said before, it is falsehood claiming that anyone said there were no standards of writing English - as what was noted was there are various schools thereof within the camp of it. But this was already covered earlier - and if continuing with a off-topic side issue you could not validate, that's your choice. It's an humorous one, of course, since it'd be rather easy going through each and every posting you've made and seeing every grammatical error done (and at the least, it's innocence forgetfulness....but at its worse, it's hypocrisy and willfully choosing to ignore where you fail to meet your own standard) - but it'd not be worth it when it's obvious it'd not be dealt with.

So what? There are some Orthodox people who believe abortion and homosexual activity is just hunky dory, so does that mean those two things are ok? Our faith is a revealed faith, passed down to us by the Apostles, not determined by democratic vote.

Emotional appeals are not the same as showing accuracy of argument. Of course someone thinking abortion is good has no business thinking it's okay because they were Orthodox - and the same goes for homosexuality.

However, that was not the context of discussion when it comes to the OP topic - the focus was on what actually was said by Orthodoxy and the Apostles - and they already noted repeatedly where things were fine in regards to appreciating Jewish Feasts while also setting the stage for new holidays to be developed as the Gentiles did later. Unless one can objectively show where any of them (i.e. St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James, St. John, etc.) said otherwise, one is really not speaking in terms of the revealed faith as the Early Church noted it - and speaking past that is focusing on topics not pertaining to the main concern of the OP.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We are all Orthodox and come from differing backgrounds, but in Orthodoxy, that IS normal

 

[paul becke]

Thank you Yeshua.

It is a deep joy to remember the history of our forefathers' love for God and the reciprocal and super abundant love which God showed upon them.

Though all has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus and the Church resplendent exists in the fullness of eternity calling us in this world to the good things to come; let us never forget but rather delight in the faithfulness of the all-faithful God toward His faithful children.

The ancient and scriptural hymn of light is apt for quoting in relation to Hanukkah:
"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace : according to thy word.
For mine eyes have seen : thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared : before the face of all people;
To be a light to lighten the Gentiles : and to be the glory of thy people Israel."


Let us be strong in the faith, joyful in the faith, and always living as light bearing icons of Christ, sharing in that self-same light as which illumines the saints before the Throne.

All Israel Shall Be Saved
…28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,…
Romans 11: 28-30

Be careful when you say the Psalms. You may be calling down curses on yourself. No-one would be more loyal to his own flesh and blood than Jesus.

Without the Old Law, there would have been no Christianity. God didn't choose the Jews as his executioners because they were worse than the Gentiles - who, you may recall, were renowned for their cruelty - but because they were the best of mankind, specially prepared for what, 2000 years, to bring forth the Messiah?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"However I HAVE gotten PMs from other Orthodox people here (only 2 of them have actually posted here) that definitely do not agree with your position at all."

So what? There are some Orthodox people who believe abortion and homosexual activity is just hunky dory, so does that mean those two things are ok? Our faith is a revealed faith, passed down to us by the Apostles, not determined by democratic vote.

I hope you explain that to Rus too since it was he that started the "consensus" posting Also, Scripture nowhere dictates Hanukkah as wrong, in fact just the opposite (as Jesus Himself celebrated it), so your allusion connecting abortion and homosexuality with Hanukkah is moot.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

On the final night of Hanukkah, I will post this:

The seven holy Maccabee martyrs, Abim, Antonius, Gurias, Eleazar, Eusebonus, Alimus and Marcellus, their mother, Solomonia, and their teacher, Eleazar, suffered for Christ in 166 under Syrian King Antiochus IV. The king loved pagan and Hellenistic customs, and held Jewish customs in contempt. He did everything possible to turn people from the Law of Moses and from their covenant with God. He desecrated the Temple of the Lord, placed a statue of the pagan god Zeus there, and forced the Jews to worship it. Many people abandoned the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but there were also those who continued to believe that the Savior would come.
A ninety-year-old elder, the scribe and teacher Eleazar, was brought to trial for his faithfulness to the Mosaic Law. He suffered tortures and died at Jerusalem.
The disciples of St. Eleazar, the seven Maccabee brothers and their mother, Solomonia, also displayed great courage. They were eventually brought to trial in Antioch by King Antiochus. They fearlessly acknowledged themselves as followers of the True God, and refused to eat pork, which was forbidden by the Law.
The eldest brother acted as spokesmen for the rest, saying that they preferred to die rather than break the Law. He was subjected to fierce tortures in sight of his brothers and their mother. His tongue was cut out, he was scalped, and his hands and feet were cut off. A cauldron and a large frying pan were then heated, and the first brother was thrown into the frying pan where he offered his soul up to God.
The next five brothers were tortured one after the other. The seventh and youngest brother was the last one left alive. King Antiochus suggested to their mother, St. Solomonia, that she persuade the boy to obey him, so that her last son at least would be spared. Instead, the brave mother told him to imitate the courage of his brothers.
After all her seven children had died, St. Solomonia stood over their bodies, raised up her hands in prayer to God and died.
The martyric death of the Maccabee brothers inspired Judas Maccabeus, and he led a revolt against King Antiochus. With God’s help, he was victorious, and then purified the Temple at Jerusalem. He also destroyed the altars which the pagans had set up in the streets. All these events are related in the Second Book of Maccabees (Ch. 8-10). Many Church Fathers preached sermons on the seven Maccabees, including St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Gregory Nazianzus and St. John Chrysostom.

Troparion (Tone 7)
Let us praise the seven Maccabees,
with their mother Solomonia and their teacher Eleazar;
they were splendid in lawful contest
as guardians of the teachings of the Law.
Now as Christ’s holy martyrs they ceaselessly intercede for the world.


Kontakion (Tone 2)
Seven pillars of the Wisdom of God
and seven lampstands of the divine Light,
all-wise Maccabees, greatest of the martyrs before the time of the martyrs, with them ask the God of all to save those who honor you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not being in communion is not the same as saying they are not Orthodox - and the OO have noted the same with the EOs.

yeah it is. Orthodox confess ONE holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. it is either EO, OO, or neither, but cannot be both. one of us is Orthodox in reality and the other is only in name.

and I concede this argument. I don't question Yeshua's Orthodoxy, and I don't think this post was Judaizing. I merely found it odd that an Orthodox Christian would wish a non Orthodox holiday greeting.