Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

It's the grave. The people are dead.

Their Souls are held there.


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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Hippolytus got it wrong.

Nope.

• Tertullian - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; The Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs - Chapter 55 ( LV.) - # 323
(155-240 A.D.)

"You have a treatise by us, (on Paradise), in which We Have Established The Position That Every Soul Is Detained In Safe Keeping In Hades Until The Day Of The Lord."


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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Justin Martyr - The First Apology of Justin - Chapter 52 - (100-165 A.D.)

ANF1 The First Apology of Justin


"For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, And Shall Send Those Of The Wicked, Endued With Eternal Sensibility, Into Everlasting Fire With The Wicked Devils."

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[ClementofA]

It's not nice to quote someone's post without identifying who wrote it.

I find complainers when i do identify & whiners when i don't identify.

But now that i know you prefer identification & don't mind your posts being shared as such, i'll know what to do henceforth.

As for leaving out Lk.16 my focus was on the word sheol, not hades.

 

[Butch5]

Nope.

• Tertullian - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; The Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs - Chapter 55 ( LV.) - # 323
(155-240 A.D.)

"You have a treatise by us, (on Paradise), in which We Have Established The Position That Every Soul Is Detained In Safe Keeping In Hades Until The Day Of The Lord."


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Posting those who are wrong on this subject doesn't make you right. The Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts perish the very day they die.

 

[ClementofA]

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

Irrefutable?

Incorrect.

…According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.

Irrefutable? The over 100 year out of date Jewish Encyclopedia? What evidence gives you that idea? You make it sound equal to inspired Scripture. Is it your Pope?

As for all 3 of your allegedly "irrefutable Jewish sources", including the Talmud, Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

As for your quoting from Jewish myths, namely the Book of Enoch & Judith, which are not even included in the Jewish canon, Scripture says:

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

So of what relevance is anything you have to offer from them? Or anything from your 3 so-called "irrefutable Jewish sources"?

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

Can any of these cherry picked opinions be supported by Scripture? If not then how are they worth anything? "All Scripture...is profitable for doctrine" (2 Tim.3:16), not your above quoted non Christian Jewish opinions & myths:

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Posting those who are wrong on this subject doesn't make you right. The Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts perish the very day they die.

The Holy Early Church Writers Are Right, The Church Is Right.

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[Butch5]

The Holy Early Church Writers Are Right, The Church Is Right.

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Sorry, they're not. As I said, the Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing, that their thoughts perish the day they die, and that they cannot praise God. Those are plain statements of fact. Parables, allegories, and figures of speech are not literal. The Bible often uses figurative language. We need to be able to discern between what is figurative and what is literal.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Sorry, they're not. As I said, the Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing, that their thoughts perish the day they die, and that they cannot praise God. Those are plain statements of fact. Parables, allegories, and figures of speech are not literal. The Bible often uses figurative language. We need to be able to discern between what is figurative and what is literal.

Jesus' Church Is Right.

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[Butch5]

Jesus' Church Is Right.

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Despite what the Bible says, right?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The Holy Spirit moved through The Church To Right Holy Scripture.


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[Major1]

How is it that folks with no formal education in Hebrew or Greek, who could not locate a Hebrew verb, or parse a Greek verb and do not know a hithpael from a hat rack or an aorist from an ant hill think they can determine that a Hebrew or Greek word is"egregiously mistranslated?"

•Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
•Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
• Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
• The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
• Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
• Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
• Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
• Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
• Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
• Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
• Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
• Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
• Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​

How??? Jealousy my dear friend. When their personal opinions are proven wrong by the Word of God it is the only avenue left to them.

 

[Major1]

Of course my posts are not meaningful to UR-ites.
As I have shown you copy/pasted a second/third hand quote without identifying the source. When one does quote a 2nd/3rd hand source one should say e.g. "Source 'X' as quoted in source 'Y' said such and such." If a student writing a paper for college did as you did they would get an "F" on the paper and maybe expelled.
OTH I only quote sources which I have actually read and which are usually readily available and which I usually link to. Quoting a "source" which is not readily available is not much different than no source at all.
It's regrettable that you do not know the difference.

The very last thing that a Universalist believer wants to see is Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

You know Jude.. praise God.. sad but true. A place.. we don't anyone to go to. And now today.. look at whats getting preached. No hell, we well get judged and all well be let in to heaven. This is not written.

Shows us the time is almost over.

Agreed!!!!!!

The Universalist theology is the height of modern "Liberalism".

 

[Major1]

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

My I say again......There are NO scriptures which support Universalism,,,NONE!

There is obviously many Scriptures which an unlearned person will try to MAKE SAY what he wants them to say which is the very worst kind of exegesis.

Every Scripture you post required you to manipulate the actual meaning of.

Also, the Bible never contradicts itself. There is a lack of understanding what is said by some but that is not contradiction at all. That is a lack of real Bible study to show ones self approved, a workman for God.

 

[agapelove]

How??? Jealousy my dear friend. When their personal opinions are proven wrong by the Word of God it is the only avenue left to them.

JEALOUSY!

That's a good one, friend. Did you notice that NOTHING in that post you are quoting is the "Word of God"? I see you still have done zilch with the scriptures I provided you several pages back regarding your "two judgments" gibberish. Looks like you are the one refusing to look at scripture.

 

[FineLinen]

My I say again......There are NO scriptures which support Universalism,,,NONE!

There is obviously many Scriptures which an unlearned person will try to MAKE SAY what he wants them to say which is the very worst kind of exegesis.

 

[agapelove]

You know Jude.. praise God.. sad but true. A place.. we don't anyone to go to. And now today.. look at whats getting preached. No hell, we well get judged and all well be let in to heaven. This is not written.

Shows us the time is almost over.

Hello Blade. The Word of God is "Good News" not "Sad but true news".

By the way, apocatastasis was an orthodox belief in early Christianity 2000 YEARS AGO. Wasn't the end of the world back then, isn't the end of the world now.

 

[Major1]

I would appreciate it if you could please stop addressing me as sir. I am clearly a woman but I'm not surprised that went right over your head as does most of Scripture. It is very much about the language, SIR. The original language of that verse you are reading is Koine Greek and if you did even the slightest research you would know that "eternal" and "punishment" are not the best translations-- an ad nauseam that would not even be necessary if politics had not dipped its tongue into the first "people's Bible" and monopolized Western theology for the first 400+ years. Thank God modern Bible translations are finally getting it together.



Thanks for your life story sir. What "same thing"? We have engaged in 0 debate because you refuse to acknowledge my refutations and then proudly claim there are no scriptures that poke holes in your theology.

We all have theologies. Don't sit on your high horse.

Please excuse me and forgive my dear lady. I never looked up any information on you to know. I apologize to you.

Please allow me to say again......there are NO refutations needed to be done on Scriptures posted by you or any other Universalists.

The Universalist position is just another idea of Purgatory and as a matter of Bible truth, there is not one single Bible Scripture which says that there is a 2nd chance to be saved after death.

There are simply NO Scriptures found in the Bible that validate the false teaching that in the end, everyone gets saved even those who are sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

The soul [not just body] who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
~Ezekiel 18:20

… in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…
~2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

If you choose to believe such false ideas...remember, it is your choice.

 

[Major1]

I LOVE IT!!! The man Bronson!!!!!