Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[ClementofA]

Have you actually read any of the sources you are "quoting?" This"quote" is second hand or probably third hand from a UR source, is from (William Barclay. The Apostles Creed. p. I8). publ. by Westminster John Knox Press) which is quoted in Divinization: The Hidden Teaching within Divine Wisdom by Efstratios Papanagioton.
Since we have this little credibility problem I don't think there is any point in continuing.

Says you who quotes merely English translations of ECF claiming aionios is there. Have you even read the original language texts to see if the word is there, or if another word was used, or even another language (e.g. Latin)? No!

Further the sources agapelove listed are included in those of scholars i have posted to you. Do you doubt the scholars have read them?

Here's what you continue to fail to respond to (also the info at the urls below):

....in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:

"The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." Strong's #2849 - κολάζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?

 

[FineLinen]

Not sure why you seem to have a problem with everybody's sources while you parade your Encyclopedia pages all over CF? I will gladly bow out of this discussion, you offer nothing meaningful.

Dear Agapelove: The old rascal has two wonderful books you should read.

1. My Humility & How I Attained It.

2. The Musings Of A Pharisee.

 

[Der Alte]

How is it you with no known publicly published credentials in Hebrew or Greek, who often mispells Koine Greek words, and incorrectly identifies words in the New Testament, & has been shown to be in error in the most basic Greek, thinks you can provide multiple pet theories - re aion, aionios, olam and ad - which you claim are proven, yet have been for years unable to provide any support for them from any scholarly source, or even from an amateur opinion (like on a discussion forum such as this)?

If and when I make an error you should point it out in a response to that thread do not make a thread for the sole purpose of criticizing other posts of mine.
One of my theories is the meaning of words can often be determined by how they are used or by other words in a sentence see e.g.

"Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
"Have you συνηκατε all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied."​

From this most people can determine the meaning of συνηκατε. Oops I just defined a Greek word.

Der Alte said: "Here the ECF define "aionos" whether they intended to or not."
Until you can provide a Greek text showing aionios (which you mispelled aionos) appears in any of those passages for which you have provided merely an English translation, your post has not proven anything. BTW many of the ECF writings are not written in Koine Greek, but Latin.

Δεν πρόκειται να κάνω κάτι τέτοιο έως ότου μου δείξετε ότι μπορείτε να διαβάσετε τα ελληνικά.
Latini namque et idem
And OBTW when a ECF is quoting the NT it is a given what word(s) they were using. So let's not see that ridiculous objection again.
Do you have any more specious objections? Anything you require of me, make sure you you do it yourself.

 

[ClementofA]

If and when I make an error you should point it out in a response to that thread do not make a thread for the sole purpose of criticizing other posts of mine.

Whenever you start practicing what you tell others to do, i might consider that.

And i never started a thread for that purpose.

And OBTW when a ECF is quoting the NT it is a given what word(s) they were using.

How many, if any, of your ECF quotes were doing that? You might want to identify what - alleged - verse, if any, next time you post that stuff.

****************************************************


Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Der Alte]

Whenever you start practicing what you tell others to do, i might consider that.
And i never started a thread for that purpose.

My bad I should have said making a post for the purpose of criticizing other posts.

How many, if any, of your ECF quotes were doing that? You might want to identify what - alleged - verse, if any, next time you post that stuff.

Most of the ECF when they are talking about "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" they are, if not quoting, referring to specific scripture not something imaginary

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Irrelevant I can show you 14 verses where "the whole world"/"all the world" refers to something which cannot be the entire planet. But I don't see UT-ites claiming that "kosmos" never means the entire world. I wonder why that is?
What might be helpful is how many times does "ainios" refer to something which is not or cannot be "eternal" and how many times does it refer to something which is or can be "eternal?"
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never uses “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
. Paul used "aionios” twenty one times. In 18 verses it refers to something which is or could be "eternal." In only 3 verses Paul used “aionios” where it might not mean "eternal.”
ETA: "aionios" occurs in the NT 69 times of that is is translated "everlasting" 25 times, "eternal" 42 times. Of these 67 occurrences refer to anything mundane which is not or cannot be "eternal."
If "aionios" "never means eternal" should not the majority of its occurrences in the NT refer to something which is not or could not be "eternal?"
I forgot to mention something in my previous post. I learned to type in Germany the year of sputnik 1, before I was old enough to vote, and my fingers don't always do what I want them to and I sometimes don't catch all of my mistakes.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:[more of same omitted DA]

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Somebody who couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb, if their life depended on it, and does not know a hithpael from a hat rack or an aorist from an apple is going to decide which word(s) Jesus, or any NT writer, should or should not have used in any given situation? I don't think so amigo. And the same goes for any UR pseudo scholar you care to name. That is still a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

 

[ClementofA]

My bad I should have said making a post for the purpose of criticizing other posts.

Like you have never done that.

Most of the ECF when they are talking about "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" they are, if not quoting, referring to specific scripture not something imaginary

If you think they are quoting a verse, then identify it.

Irrelevant I can show you 14 verses where "the whole world"/"all the world" refers to something which cannot be the entire planet.

So? Who said kosmos has only one meaning? You? BDAG lists at leasts 8.

In only 3 verses Paul used “aionios” where it might not mean "eternal.”

All you do here is state an unsubstantiated opinion. I can do the same: you're wrong!

And have never addressed the following which actually uses evidence, reasoning & logic rather than bald pointless assertions:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

I forgot to mention something in my previous post. I learned to type in Germany the year of sputnik 1, before I was old enough to vote, and my fingers don't always do what I want them to and I sometimes don't catch all of my mistakes.

May the Lord heal whatever ails you.

Perhaps a spellchecker would help?

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Somebody who couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb, if their life depended on it, and does not know a hithpael from a hat rack or an aorist from an apple is going to decide which word(s) Jesus, or any NT writer, should or should not have used in any given situation? I don't think so amigo. And the same goes for any UR pseudo scholar you care to name. That is still a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

No, usage determines meaning. Aionios is often proven to be finite by many examples. Seldom, if ever, in Koine Greek does it indicate endlessness. Therefore it is a poor choice of a word if Jesus intended to use it to express endless punishment. He had multiple other clear & unambiguous words & expressions He could have used if it was His intention to warn about a future endless punishment:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Furthermore, we see here how your own quotes support that:

● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

 

[Der Alte]

...
No, usage determines meaning. Aionios is often proven to be finite by many examples. Seldom, if ever, in Koine Greek does it indicate endlessness. Therefore it is a poor choice of a word if Jesus intended to use it to express endless punishment. He had multiple other clear & unambiguous words & expressions He could have used if it was His intention to warn about a future endless punishment:...

Yet another post filled with logical fallacies. Tu quoque, argument from silence, begging the question etc..
The Greek word "aionios" occurs 69 times in the NT. It is correctly translated "eternal" 30 times and "everlasting" 15 times. These refer mostly to eternal/everlasting life. The remaining times it refers to something mundane which is not or cannot be "eternal."

 

[ClementofA]

Yet another post filled with logical fallacies. Tu quoque, argument from silence, begging the question etc..
The Greek word "aionios" occurs 69 times in the NT. It is correctly translated "eternal" 30 times and "everlasting" 15 times. These refer mostly to eternal/everlasting life. The remaining times it refers to something mundane which is not or cannot be "eternal."

All you do here is state unsubstantiated opinion. I can do the same: you're wrong!

And you have never addressed the following which actually uses evidence, reasoning & logic rather than bald pointless assertions:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

 

[Butch5]

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’

• Luke 16:19-28

Some people say that Jesus was speaking to people using Parables when He was mentioning Hades, But He also mentions Hades when He wasn't speaking in parables :



And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven ? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
• Matthew 11:23


And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church,
and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
• Matthew 16:18


.

Hades is the grave. It's not a place of torment.

 

[ClementofA]

Hades is the grave. It's not a place of torment.

And Sheol:

I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.

.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

In the New Testament Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 

[Butch5]

And Sheol:

Hades and sheol are both the grave

 

[ClementofA]

Hades and sheol are both the grave

How do you understand these passages:

"I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.

.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD."

 

[Butch5]

How do you understand these passages:

"I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.

.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD."

It's figurative language as I said in the other post. There is plenty of figurative language in the Bible. In Revelation Jesus is depicted as a lamb having been slain having seven eyes. Surely that's not literal.

 

[Der Alte]

How do you understand these passages:

It's not nice to quote someone's post without identifying who wrote it.
Do you have a problem with my post? Why did you omit Luke 16:19-31?
I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
.....In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD."​

And you omitted my comment that the Jews considered Isa 14:9-11 to be factual.

 

[Der Alte]

All you do here is state unsubstantiated opinion. I can do the same: you're wrong!
And you have never addressed the following which actually uses evidence, reasoning & logic rather than bald pointless assertions:
Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?
the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

I have never seen one of your posts that actually used evidence. I'll have to give it a read.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Hades is the grave. It's not a place of torment.

It's a temporary holding place for Both the righteous and unrighteous until the great white throne judgment of Christ.


.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Hades is the grave. It's not a place of torment.

• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus -
Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 1.
(170–235 A.D.)

ANF5 Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II


And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, Who Indeed Are At Present Detained In Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host.


.

 

[Der Alte]

It's a temporary holding place for Both the righteous and unrighteous until the great white throne judgment of Christ..

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, Translated as hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change, disprove or affect anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Butch5]

It's a temporary holding place for Both the righteous and unrighteous until the great white throne judgment of Christ.


.

It's the grave. The people are dead.

 

[Butch5]

• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus -
Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 1.
(170–235 A.D.)

ANF5 Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II


And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, Who Indeed Are At Present Detained In Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host.


.

Hippolytus got it wrong.