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Featured Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, May 20, 2020.

  1. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
    The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
    Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.
    ’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
    Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’


    Luke 16:19-28







    Some people say that Jesus was speaking to people using Parables when He was mentioning Hades, But He also mentions Hades when He wasn't speaking in parables :



    And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven ? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    Matthew 11:23


    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church,
    and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
    Matthew 16:18


    .
     
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  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

    "If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

    The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

    Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

    "Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

    When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

    The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

    " “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

    " "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

    The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

    In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

    Tom Talbott said:

    "As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

    How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective

    We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

    Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

    Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways made smooth;
    Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers
     
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  3. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Regardless of the amount of time he was in Hades,
    he was still experiencing Torment and Agony While In The Fire of Hades.


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    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Wonderful!

    Our God who is the Author & Finisher of ta pavnte is unable to finish what He began in His beloved Son, the Lord Lesous.

    Adam1 = "many made sinners" > > >

    Last Adam = the same many "made righteous."
     
  5. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Lord isn't going to force anyone to love Him. If they don't want to be saved they don't have to be.


    If anyone does not love The Lord Jesus Christ, Let Him Be Accursed.
    1 Corinthians 16:22

    .
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
     
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Bintheredunthat. I have found that reading the whole Bible instead of only certain out-of-context proof texts, one obtains a more balanced understanding of scripture.
    Romans 4:15
    15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Romans 5:13
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

     
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  9. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But now he is dead; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ? I Shall Go To Him, but he shall not return to me."
    2 Samuel 12:23


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  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I continue to be amazed by such comments.

    Speaking of the lost we see in Jude 12-13...……….
    "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

    Matt. 25:41...……..
    "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!"

    It is unreasonable, unlogical and unBiblical to assume that there is an eternal Heaven but not an eternal Hell.

    Eternal punishment is as much a truth of God’s Word as is the eternal rewards for the righteous. Jesus said in Matt. 25:46......
    “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal”.

    Matt. 18:8.........
    "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."
     
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  11. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times.
    He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times.
    When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
    Paul used oi polloi/the many ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."

    In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
    Romans 1:24
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Romans 1:26
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Romans 1:28
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Matthew 7:22-23
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Psalms 81:11-12
    11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
    12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
    Revelation 22:11
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.




     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I forgot about Rev. 14:9-11.........
    "And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
     
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  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Were they alive or dead when this happened?
    Can dead people learn things?

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
    Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
    John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.




     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect.

    Their bodies went to the grave. There souls went to "Paradise" which is the good side of Sheol. Then when Christ ascended to heaven, He took those spirits to heaven with Him.

    The bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected to their souls at the Rapture.

    1 Thess. 4:15-18.....
    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
     
  16. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    It's a parable, based on folklore.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then i have to wonder if you've seriously researched & studied the question as to whether or not universalism being scriptural has some merit.

    As for the scripture passages you posted, i'll address Matthew 25:46:



    You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

    There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

    (1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

    (2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

    Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

    That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

    Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
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  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's what you've never answered:

    The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

    Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
    19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

    If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)



    All men are not - yet - in Christ. But 1 Cor.15 says:

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

    How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

    1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

    So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.


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  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

    Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

    Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

    What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

    Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

    Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

    1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.


    A number of commentators apply verse 14 to - nations - God had (past tense) destroyed in this world, which means it could have nothing to do with the - future - final destiny of individuals - postmortem in another world. Furthermore, many translations do not put it in the future tense "shall not live" as the KJV does, but in the present tense "do not live". Both of these points defeat the verse as an annihilationist "proof text".


    Compare Lk.16:19-31. Did the "rich man" in Hades "know not any thing"? Or is Eccl.9:5 speaking of corpses such as are, for example, put in graves?

    See my previous comment.



    Do you have scripture to support any of those statements? If so, which verses apply to each of them? Do you, therefore, believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep"?

    Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died did "know not any thing" and "the memory of [him was] forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5, quoted above by you)? That the story about him is fictional?

    Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died "shall not rise" (Isa.26:14) when all the dead are risen?

    Is it, therefore, your viewpoint that Love Omnipotent will not "shew wonders to the dead" and the dead will never "arise and praise Thee" (Psa.88:10)?

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  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven
     
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