Good News, Really?

[Skala]

It is the fact that unconditional election is unto damnation that is the troubling issue; that the reprobate hasn't a hope.

Foreknowledge on the other hand is quite different and not troubling. Even though God knows all, mankind can be assured that there is hope.

Election puts nobody in hell, janx.

Instead, it rescues people to heaven that would have ended up in hell for their sins.

We see things so very, very differently.

Thats for sure. You find it troubling that God saves people. I don't.

 

[ForceofTime]

It is the fact that unconditional election is unto damnation that is the troubling issue; that the reprobate hasn't a hope.

Pharaoh had hope within his own city! Every time he saw the Children of Israel's camp, there was hope. Every time he saw Moses, there was hope. Everytime he saw the power of the Living God manifest in his presence, there was hope. Then when hope had departed, he sought to take it back by force.

When I see this: Exodus 12:32 (KJV) Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also. It makes me yell at the page, "Go! Go with them too!" But to no avail. I can sympathize with Moses: Exodus 11:8 (KJV) [...] And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.

Anyway, thank you so much for your replies, Janxharris. Peace of our Lord Jesus and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!

 

[janxharris]

Election puts nobody in hell, janx.

Instead, it rescues people to heaven that would have ended up in hell for their sins.



Thats for sure. You find it troubling that God saves people. I don't.

The limited election that you believe in does, in effect, put them in hell. Again, isolating one element of TULIP to try to prove a point doesn't succeed.

If you cannot see the injustice then I guess we will just have to leave it.

I'm not in any way troubled by God saving.

 

[Skala]

The limited election that you believe in does, in effect, put them in hell. Again, isolating one element of TULIP to try to prove a point doesn't succeed.

If you cannot see the injustice then I guess we will just have to leave it.

I'm not in any way troubled by God saving.

Janx, sin puts them in hell.

All men are sinners, thus all men are by default headed to hell.

Election rescues men to heaven that would have ended up in hell. Without election, everyone would end up in hell, nobody would be in heaven.

Lack of election is not the reason the rest end up in hell. You can't blame a non-thing for ending up in hell. Sin is to blame.

If you move into a house with green walls, and you paint all of them white, except one, your lack of painting the one wall is not the reason it's green. It's green because of something else. In this case, because someone painted it green before you moved in.

You are trying to say that the reason the wall is green is because of lack of painting it white. It is not logical.

 

[Eddie L]

Aren't calvinists concerned about everyone getting a fair chance to accept or reject Christ?

This is not an issue for the creature to evaluate, since this area is God's responsibility. We're not going to worry about God being "fair", because whatever God does is always "right". I don't have to defend God's fairness of have concern over it, because even if I don't understand what He's doing, I trust that God, Who knows the big picture and what is really going on, has got it covered.

What if it's their child or parent or spouse?

Everyone has the same hope that I do: God's grace. We have no idea who is or isn't elect, so we are placing our trust in the One who knows what He is doing. I leave my wife, mother, and children in God's hands, Who I pray will move in them like He did in me, maybe even using me to make it so. Again, I trust Him to do the right thing, even if I can't comprehend what that is.

Isn't this issue more important than pride?

Absolutely not. Pride is the lie that sustains the illusion that we don't depend on God for absolutely everything. The understanding of the utter dependence we have on grace is key to the health of our relationship with God in Christ.

God resists the proud and knows each man's heart, so a prideful person wouldn't be the kind to accept God's salvation anyway.

We agree, but we go deeper. Why is one person the kind of person that would accept God's salvation and another not? Why is one proud and one humble? If we are saying that a man somehow discovers humility on his own, then we've given that man something to boast about, and have placed a wedge between that man and true humility.

 

[janxharris]

Janx, sin puts them in hell.

If sin puts you in hell then the elect would be there too. Even believers continue sinning so it is not the sin that puts people in hell; it's the not being covered by Christ - and your theology teaches that this is withheld without explanation.

All men are sinners, thus all men are by default headed to hell.

True

Election rescues men to heaven that would have ended up in hell. Without election, everyone would end up in hell, nobody would be in heaven.

True if election equals belief.

If you move into a house with green walls, and you paint all of them white, except one, your lack of painting the one wall is not the reason it's green. It's green because of something else. In this case, because someone painted it green before you moved in.

You are trying to say that the reason the wall is green is because of lack of painting it white. It is not logical.

The green wall was and is green because that was the last colour to be used. It's continuing state of being green is because it was painted green AND because nobody has altered it. Not really sure this analogy helps much. (I'm not criticising you for introducing it though - very interesting).

 

[guuila]

I'm not a Calvinist because it is false rather than because I dislike it. One cannot put one's faith in something one considers to be false; especially when its falsehood is abundantly evident.

Please continue to enlighten me if I am wrong.

Unregenerate man believes the gospel is false, but for some reason you're inconsistent on this point. You believe unregenerate man can put his faith in the gospel.

Your failure to make yourself like Calvinism is proof that what you believe about the human will is wishful thinking. You can't make yourself like something you hate.

 

[guuila]

If you were to ask a number of people if they thought this was fair I think we all know what the answer would be.

Really? You think that's a good strategy? Asking sinful, fallible, fallen people what they think is fair?

Like I said before, if you demand fairness, God should throw you in hell at this very moment. That's what you deserve. You better quit shaking your fists at God and telling him what's fair and unfair. I seriously doubt you want an encounter like Job had.

 

[guuila]

This might seem a little heartless if one considers the reprobates.

Not forgetting that the reprobate and the elect are just about as evil as each other.
Sorry, but it just does not sit right.

Jesus said, ' Let not your hearts be troubled...' but Calvinism leaves me feeling extremely troubled.

And it will until you understand your own sinfulness. A professing Christian who goes around demanding what's fair and not fair for God to do is either A) Unregenerate and still under the wrath of God or B) Seriously confused about what grace is and is at best a really unhealthy Christian.

I'm starting to wonder if you truly have a heart-felt understanding of your own depravity. I think you might understand it with your head, but do you understand it with your heart? It's been said that the longest distance in the world is between the head and the heart. I'm not saying this to be mean, but I'm really concerned. A person who truly understands that they deserve hell won't say what God can and can't do with his grace.

 

[WordofHisPower]

This is not an issue for the creature to evaluate, since this area is God's responsibility. We're not going to worry about God being "fair", because whatever God does is always "right". I don't have to defend God's fairness of have concern over it, because even if I don't understand what He's doing, I trust that God, Who knows the big picture and what is really going on, has got it covered.

Everyone has the same hope that I do: God's grace. We have no idea who is or isn't elect, so we are placing our trust in the One who knows what He is doing. I leave my wife, mother, and children in God's hands, Who I pray will move in them like He did in me, maybe even using me to make it so. Again, I trust Him to do the right thing, even if I can't comprehend what that is.

Absolutely not. Pride is the lie that sustains the illusion that we don't depend on God for absolutely everything. The understanding of the utter dependence we have on grace is key to the health of our relationship with God in Christ.

We agree, but we go deeper. Why is one person the kind of person that would accept God's salvation and another not? Why is one proud and one humble? If we are saying that a man somehow discovers humility on his own, then we've given that man something to boast about, and have placed a wedge between that man and true humility.

Scripture says man rejects Christ because they love darkness and refuse to come into the light. You can call this pride if you wish, but scripture calls it loving darkness, which encompasses much more than pride.

John 3:18-21
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

God's abundantly fair, and a righteous judge of all the earth. He desires none should perish.

The the problem christians have with calvinist fatalism is it erringly present a picture of an unfair God.

We're trying to help you see the scriptural weakness of calvinist fatalism.

 

[Eddie L]

So now you're calling us fatalists even though you've been shown the difference, and you are making rabbit trails instead of addressing what is said in conversation. Congrats, you have officially joined the title of 'raging uninformed'.

 

[WordofHisPower]

So now you're calling us fatalists even though you've been shown the difference, and you are making rabbit trails instead of addressing what is said in conversation. Congrats, you have officially joined the title of 'raging uninformed'.

No, I'm saying calvinist fatalism is what christians reject as sound doctrine. By your definition of fatalism, people are given no choice. So far the only ones advocating this are calvinists.

If anyone says it's fair for God to send people to hell with no chance to accept or reject Christ, christians are going to speak up against this fallacy.

I thought your post was the clearest on this subject. You made good points. How do you recommend christians discuss this topic? Is there anyway to come to scriptural agreement and avoid rabbit trails and silly disputes?

You made a good point about calvinists wanting us to admit it's God's grace by which we're saved, not our own doing, which we have started to do here.

You said arminians are concerned about no choice fatalism. Calvinists are still advocating this, so we're speaking up against it.

If calvinists would stop advocating no choice fatalism, we could join forces and deal with the pelagians. Or we could move on to the arminian fallacy / calvinist accuracy on the subject of OSAS.

That's exactly right. The love of darkness is what we call "depravity". Man does "dark" kind of things because he loves darkness. This is where the disagreements start. We disagree on what causes a man who loves darkness to suddenly want the light.

Pelagian - Man has the capacity from birth to work righteousness or to sin. Grace is not necessary to initiate the change of a person's heart in order for them to seek after God or to grow as a believer afterward. Those who are obedient are rewarded with salvation.

Semi-Pelagian - Man has the capacity to seek God on his own without the assistance of grace, but God's grace helps a person who has come to Jesus to grow as a believer. Those who free themselves from their love of darkness and accept the gospel without divine assistance have qualified themselves for God's salvation.

REAL Arminian - In his natural state, man cannot seek after God because he loves the darkness rather than light. At some point in every person's life, the grace of God assists a person to a point where they can accept Jesus or reject Him. Those who choose to accept the gospel and continue in faith (with divine help) have met the critieria for God's salvation.

Calvinism - In his natural state, man cannot seek after God because he loves the darkness rather than the light. God sent Jesus to pay the debt for those the Holy Spirit would later free from the love of darkness so that they willingly follow Christ. Those who believe are those God is saving.

Fatalism - Who cares what the state of man is? It doesn't matter. God has set all the destinations regardless of what we do.

The debate between the Arminian and Calvinist tends to focus on the differences, which makes an Arminian sometimes sound a little too Pelagian and makes a Calvinist sound too fatalistic. Arminians aren't Pelagian, though, and Calvinists are not fatalists.

 

[Arcoe]

Why is one proud and one humble? If we are saying that a man somehow discovers humility on his own, then we've given that man something to boast about, and have placed a wedge between that man and true humility.

Hey Eddie, as I have showed you previously from scripture, grace is given to the humble. How did you receive grace if you didn't humble yourself? Remember, grace is grace; you can't divide it.

BTW, humility is the antithesis of boasting.

 

[Eddie L]

Hey Eddie, as I have showed you previously from scripture, grace is given to the humble. How did you receive grace if you didn't humble yourself? Remember, grace is grace; you can't divide it.

BTW, humility is the antithesis of boasting.

Of course I can divide it. It isn't like there is one means of grace. We are led from grace to grace. The power to do what I should is found in the humility to recognize that I need God's grace to do it.

 

[Arcoe]

Unregenerate man believes the gospel is false, but for some reason you're inconsistent on this point. You believe unregenerate man can put his faith in the gospel.

Your failure to make yourself like Calvinism is proof that what you believe about the human will is wishful thinking. You can't make yourself like something you hate.

How can one hate something, and believe something is false, if he knows nothing about it? Do you hate the Companies Act 2006 (c.46) which received Royal Assent on 8 November 2006 in the UK? Perhaps you believe it is false. Please tell me if you hate it and if you think it is false. Can you do this if you know nothing about it?

Also, how can one hate someone they do not know? Do you hate Billy Ching, an employee of PT Erajaya Swasembada, Tbk., in Indonesia? If you do hate him, please tell me why?

 

[Skala]

If sin puts you in hell then the elect would be there too. Even believers continue sinning so it is not the sin that puts people in hell; it's the not being covered by Christ - and your theology teaches that this is withheld without explanation.

I didn't think I really needed to be this simplistic, but I guess I do. The elect, having trusted Christ, are united with him and sin is not counted against them any longer.

The green wall was and is green because that was the last colour to be used. It's continuing state of being green is because it was painted green AND because nobody has altered it. Not really sure this analogy helps much. (I'm not criticising you for introducing it though - very interesting).

There is no "and". the Primary reason it is green is not because someone didn't come along and choose to paint it a different color.

I live in a house with white walls. They've always been white since I moved in. Are you saying that the reason, the cause, the fault they are white is because I did not paint over them?

Surely you see it is not logical. its not my fault they are white. I had nothing to do with them being white. If I wanted to paint them, I could. But my lack of painting them is not the reason they are white in the first place.

You are trying to say it is.

 

[Skala]

No, I'm saying calvinist fatalism is what christians reject as sound doctrine. By your definition of fatalism, people are given no choice. So far the only ones advocating this are calvinists.

You are either just misinformed or purposefully misrepresenting calvinism.

Calvinism is not fatalism. Fatalism means that the ends will come about regardless of the means. It means that no matter what happens between point A in time and point B in time, the end is set and it's going to be realized.

That's not what Calvinism teaches.

It teaches that God not only ordained the ends, but also the means to that end. In other words, what happens between A and B is exactly what brings about the ends. God not only ordained that people would be saved, but continues to work in time to bring it about. He is active in bringing missionaries to people, changing hearts, bringing people to Christ.

Fatalism says that whether or not you savingly believe in Christ, you may or may not be saved.

Calvinism, like any other form of Christianity, says that if you savingly believe in Christ, you will most assuredly be saved, just like scripture promises.

When people come to Christ because of the Holy Spirit's work to change their hearts, they come willingly. They want to come. They desire to come. Nobody is dragged kicking and screaming to Christ, and to heaven.

When people reject Christ because of their sin and rebellion, they are doing so willingly. They want to reject Christ. They desire to reject him. They are content to continue rebelling.

Surely you can see that there is nothing fatalistic about this.

If anyone says it's fair for God to send people to hell with no chance to accept or reject Christ, christians are going to speak up against this fallacy

.

The only way one could possibly "speak up" about if if they hold to a liberal, watered down view of sin, and conclude that people don't deserve hell after all, or that hell is unjust.

Anyone who affirms the Biblical testimony that hell is just would never 'speak up' against God sending people to hell. What will you accuse God of in such a scenario? Exacting justice? Last I checked, that's hardly an accusation because justice is a righteous thing.

"God, how dare you send sinners to hell! You're being too just!!! "

 

[guuila]

How can one hate something, and believe something is false, if he knows nothing about it? Do you hate the Companies Act 2006 (c.46) which received Royal Assent on 8 November 2006 in the UK? Perhaps you believe it is false. Please tell me if you hate it and if you think it is false. Can you do this if you know nothing about it?

I have no idea what you're talking about. My statement that unregenerate man hates the Gospel assumes he has heard it. I never once said you can hate something you have no idea about.

Also, how can one hate someone they do not know? Do you hate Billy Ching, an employee of PT Erajaya Swasembada, Tbk., in Indonesia? If you do hate him, please tell me why?

I really don't know why you insist on beating the daylights out of straw men. Oh wait. Yeah I do. You hate Calvinism and you'll do anything you can to win the argument.

 

[nobdysfool]

I really don't know why you insist on beating the daylights out of straw men.

It gives him the illusion that he's winning something, when in reality he isn't.

 

[guuila]

So now you're calling us fatalists even though you've been shown the difference, and you are making rabbit trails instead of addressing what is said in conversation. Congrats, you have officially joined the title of 'raging uninformed'.

As we continue to see, consistency, honesty, and biblical exegesis considering the sum total of Scripture really doesn't matter. If a person's goal is to destroy Calvinism, that's all that matters. It makes no difference if they think grace is owed, hell is unjust, or if they're just flat out Pelagians. Synergists will lock arms with other synergists of all varieties, even heretics, if they can have one thing in common: destroying Calvinism. Awesome isn't it?