Good News, Really?

[nobdysfool]

As we continue to see, consistency, honesty, and biblical exegesis considering the sum total of Scripture really doesn't matter. If a person's goal is to destroy Calvinism, that's all that matters. It makes no difference if they think grace is owed, hell is unjust, or if they're just flat out Pelagians. Synergists will lock arms with other synergists of all varieties, even heretics, if they can have one thing in common: destroying Calvinism. Awesome isn't it?

and they are failing, spectacularly....

 

[guuila]

and they are failing, spectacularly....

Kind of hard to refute the Bible methinks...

 

[nobdysfool]

Kind of hard to refute the Bible methinks...

Ah, but they do try....

 

[Arcoe]

I have no idea what you're talking about. My statement that unregenerate man hates the Gospel assumes he has heard it. I never once said you can hate something you have no idea about.

If an unregenerate man hates the Gospel after hearing it, how is a man regenerated? Peter says we are born again through the living and enduring word of God. Can one hate the Gospel and still be regenerated by it?

I really don't know why you insist on beating the daylights out of straw men. Oh wait. Yeah I do. You hate Calvinism and you'll do anything you can to win the argument.

If you will but listen to what I say. You say the unregenerate hate God. How does one hate another they do not know?

 

[janxharris]

Sorry, I deleted this...my next post says the same

 

[janxharris]

The only way one could possibly "speak up" about if if they hold to a liberal, watered down view of sin, and conclude that people don't deserve hell after all, or that hell is unjust.

Anyone who affirms the Biblical testimony that hell is just would never 'speak up' against God sending people to hell. What will you accuse God of in such a scenario? Exacting justice? Last I checked, that's hardly an accusation because justice is a righteous thing.

"God, how dare you send sinners to hell! You're being too just!!! "

Again, your argument is made without including all the related elements of Reformed Theology.

Men go to hell if they are not covered by Jesus Christ. If sin were the reason they went to hell then believers would go there too since they also sin. Reformed Theology teaches that only the elect, through regeneration, will be covered by Christ; the rest are unwilling and unable to have the faith necessary to be covered. God, in Reformed Theology, has withheld the very thing that the non-elect need to avoid hell and is therefore unjust.

 

[guuila]

If an unregenerate man hates the Gospel after hearing it, how is a man regenerated? Peter says we are born again through the living and enduring word of God. Can one hate the Gospel and still be regenerated by it?

Regeneration itself, i.e., the call of God, is what creates life. This is what Ezekiel spoke of when he said:

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 ESV)

Regeneration is what replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh. A heart of flesh loves Christ and sees the Gospel as the wisdom of God and the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:22-24) Note in these verses the phrase "but to those who are called..." Not everyone is called.

If you will but listen to what I say. You say the unregenerate hate God. How does one hate another they do not know?

Ask Paul. " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20 ESV)

 

[Eddie L]

Again, your argument is made without including all the related elements of Reformed Theology.

Men go to hell if they are not covered by Jesus Christ. If sin were the reason they went to hell then believers would go there too since they also sin. Reformed Theology teaches that only the elect, through regeneration, will be covered by Christ; the rest are unwilling and unable to have the faith necessary to be covered. God, in Reformed Theology, has withheld the very thing that the non-elect need to avoid hell and is therefore unjust.

That's kind of an absurd argument, Jan, because your view doesn't change this. God is all-powerful and could change absolutely anything in creation. If God providing anything He can to change the destiny of people is required in order for Him to be just, then there isn't any way that He could be just apart from universalism, because everything is in His toolbox to alter people or circumstances. In other words, there is a lot more than just election and regeneration in God's toolbox. If people going to Heaven was His primary concern, then there is no limit to what He could change to get it done.

The Bible says that God is demonstrating His glory through two things: His just wrath against sin and His mercy. I expect that God has determined the numbers so that both of these are displayed to whatever degree God deems to be perfect. I think we should trust that God knows what He's doing.

 

[guuila]

Again, your argument is made without including all the related elements of Reformed Theology.

Men go to hell if they are not covered by Jesus Christ. If sin were the reason they went to hell then believers would go there too since they also sin. Reformed Theology teaches that only the elect, through regeneration, will be covered by Christ; the rest are unwilling and unable to have the faith necessary to be covered. God, in Reformed Theology, has withheld the very thing that the non-elect need to avoid hell and is therefore unjust.

Wow.... here we have a sinner saying God owes grace. You sound just like the person Paul rebuked in Romans 9. Not a place I want to be... just sayin'.

Again, why don't you ask God to give you what's fair? That would be eternal hellfire in case you're not sure.

 

[Eddie L]

Jesus preached a rather Calvinist message in John 6, and at its end people were offended and walked away. Jesus watched them leave. He didn't alter the message to make them feel better.

After they walked away Jesus spoke to the 12. He asked them if they would leave Him, too. Peter said "To whom shall we go?"

Today, also, we can encounter hard teaching that offends us and walk away like the masses, who were happy to eat the bread but not to accept the truth. Or we can be like the 12 and understand that no matter what the truth is we have to accept it, because there is nobody else to go to but Jesus.

 

[Skala]

I have no idea what you're talking about. My statement that unregenerate man hates the Gospel assumes he has heard it. I never once said you can hate something you have no idea about.



I really don't know why you insist on beating the daylights out of straw men. Oh wait. Yeah I do. You hate Calvinism and you'll do anything you can to win the argument.

It gives him the illusion that he's winning something, when in reality he isn't.

It's good for the ego

 

[janxharris]

Wow.... here we have a sinner saying God owes grace. You sound just like the person Paul rebuked in Romans 9. Not a place I want to be... just sayin'.

Again, why don't you ask God to give you what's fair? That would be eternal hellfire in case you're not sure.

I don't believe you have addressed my point.

 

[Johnnz]

Jesus preached a rather Calvinist message in John 6, and at its end people were offended and walked away. Jesus watched them leave. He didn't alter the message to make them feel better.

Jesus was not a Calvinist. Father's desire, echoed in the Sons' mission, was for all of humanity to live in relationship with them. Jesus is Father's gift to all of humanity - hence 'all the Father gives me', but not all will chose to accept His offer.

Col 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
NIV

This is not universalism, but that all will one day come under the Lordship of Christ in some way; nothing is excluded in this verse.

John
NZ

 

[guuila]

I don't believe you have addressed my point.

No, I didn't. You continually say it's not fair that God doesn't extend mercy to every single person. You believe God owes us grace. You don't believe you deserve hell.

 

[Eddie L]

Jesus was not a Calvinist. Father's desire, echoed in the Sons' mission, was for all of humanity to live in relationship with them. Jesus is Father's gift to all of humanity - hence 'all the Father gives me', but not all will chose to accept His offer.

Col 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
NIV

This is not universalism, but that all will one day come under the Lordship of Christ in some way; nothing is excluded in this verse.

John
NZ

Now you are avoiding my point. It seems that you and some others have such a high opinion of your definition of justice or fairness that you'd walk away from Jesus if He disagreed with you. That's what the crowd did, but not the 12.

 

[Skala]

Jesus was not a Calvinist. Father's desire, echoed in the Sons' mission, was for all of humanity to live in relationship with them. Jesus is Father's gift to all of humanity - hence 'all the Father gives me', but not all will chose to accept His offer.

Col 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
NIV

This is not universalism, but that all will one day come under the Lordship of Christ in some way; nothing is excluded in this verse.

John
NZ

Actually Jesus said he came to do the Father's will, which was to not lose any that the Father gave him, but raise it up at the last day. Not to merely "Try to save everyone". But actually save His sheep.

 

[janxharris]

That's kind of an absurd argument, Jan, because your view doesn't change this. God is all-powerful and could change absolutely anything in creation. If God providing anything He can to change the destiny of people is required in order for Him to be just, then there isn't any way that He could be just apart from universalism, because everything is in His toolbox to alter people or circumstances. In other words, there is a lot more than just election and regeneration in God's toolbox. If people going to Heaven was His primary concern, then there is no limit to what He could change to get it done.

The Bible says that God is demonstrating His glory through two things: His just wrath against sin and His mercy. I expect that God has determined the numbers so that both of these are displayed to whatever degree God deems to be perfect. I think we should trust that God knows what He's doing.

I think you have misunderstood me Eddie L.

 

[janxharris]

Jesus preached a rather Calvinist message in John 6, and at its end people were offended and walked away. Jesus watched them leave. He didn't alter the message to make them feel better.

After they walked away Jesus spoke to the 12. He asked them if they would leave Him, too. Peter said "To whom shall we go?"

Today, also, we can encounter hard teaching that offends us and walk away like the masses, who were happy to eat the bread but not to accept the truth. Or we can be like the 12 and understand that no matter what the truth is we have to accept it, because there is nobody else to go to but Jesus.

I believe every man has a limit beyond which his faith would falter. Calvinism is that limit for me (and many others it would seem judging by what has been written here). Do you not comprehend how damaging we consider this doctrine?

 

[Skala]

I believe every man has a limit beyond which his faith would falter. Calvinism is that limit for me (and many others it would seem judging by what has been written here). Do you not comprehend how damaging we consider this doctrine?

So you consider it damaging that God saved billions of people that He should have just let perish justly into hell?

WHAT A TROUBLING CONCEPT!!!!!!! GASP!! THE HORROR!!!!!!!

 

[Eddie L]

I think you have misunderstood me Eddie L.

How have I misunderstood? This is what you said:

If the following is true:

1. All men deserve Hell
2. No person has the moral ability to accept the gospel
3. God elects and regenerates some men
4. The others are left alone

Then God is unjust, because He could've elected/regenerated everyone. Therefore, you are putting the salvation of man at the top of God's priority list, right? Nothing else can come first? And if something is more important to God than the salvation of all men, He is unjust. Is that your conclusion?

If it isn't, how can that be?