Good News, Really?

janxharris

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So giving grace to some and not others is unfair? Since when is grace obligatory? Obligatory grace is no longer grace. It destroys the meaning of the word. Grace by definition is unowed, unearned, voluntarily given.

Grace is offered to those that believe Jesus. Their faith does not make them worthy because faith, as scripture states, is not a work and so because they are not worthy it is still grace. This is what was predestined - that believers would be Holy and blameless in His sight (for they are still not actually Holy and blameless, but God sees Jesus when He looks at believers).

This just proves that in your view, you demand grace from God or else you claim he is unjust.

I have not demanded what you say.

Yet your boast is that God should have saved you, because if he didn't, he is unjust.
I fear for you.

I have not said this.
 
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janxharris

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Your argumentation is likened to accusing a teacher for not mercifully extending a deadline to students who chose to not do their homework. It's not the teacher's lack of mercy that is to blame (for it is not owed or deserved to begin with it) but rather it is the fault of the students.

However according to how you are arguing above, it is the teachers fault. In your view seemingly she should (key word) be merciful. You are obligating her to do something merciful, thus destroying the meaning of the word. There's no such thing as obligatory mercy. it is an oxymoron. Mercy is voluntary and cannot be demanded.

This analogy has come up before.

Is it okay for the teacher to extend the deadline for some of her students but not for others whilst, at the same time, giving no reason at all? Would not the students to whom the deadline was not extended became incensed?

If the teacher, when asked, said that it was , 'her good pleasure to do so', do you think that would assuage the angry students in any way?
 
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guuila

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Grace is offered to those that believe Jesus. Their faith does not make them worthy because faith, as scripture states, is not a work and so because they are not worthy it is still grace. This is what was predestined - that believers would be Holy and blameless in His sight (for they are still not actually Holy and blameless, but God sees Jesus when He looks at believers).

You totally dodged the question. Grace is not 'offered' to those who believe. Grace isn't a reward for faith. Faith is the result of grace. Cart before the horse.

I have not demanded what you say.

Your whole argument is that if God extends grace to one person, he better extend grace to all or he is acting unfair.

I have not said this.

Then please explain what is unfair.
 
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guuila

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As has been stated many times, faith is not a work.

You can keep saying that over and over and over, but your faith is what distinguished you from all those other sinners who will be lost forever. Too bad they weren't as humble as you. Good job!

If I believe God gave me my faith, and I thank him for it, am I giving him too much credit?
 
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guuila

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But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. (Matthew 13:16 ESV)

Janx, why are your eyes and ears blessed? Are they blessed because you were smart/wise/humble enough to see and hear? Are do you see and hear because your eyes and ears were first blessed?

Not everyone's eyes and ears are blessed, or everyone would believe. Your eyes and ears are different than the unbeliever's eyes and ears. Why is that?
 
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janxharris

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For the life of me I cannot understand how you came to that conclusion.

What you need to understand is that the reason the non-elect don't respond positively to the gospel is not because God doesn't extend them the inward call, but because of their sin. (Skala)

It implies that regeneration is not required, but in your theology it is required. (Me)

Skala is saying that it is because of their sin that they don't respond to the Gospel - that they are able to - that they are responsible. I don't understand why this is not apparent to you.
 
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janxharris

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You totally dodged the question. Grace is not 'offered' to those who believe. Grace isn't a reward for faith. Faith is the result of grace. Cart before the horse.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved
For God so loved the world.....

Your whole argument is that if God extends grace to one person, he better extend grace to all or he is acting unfair.

The grace is there for all in scripture - but one must believe. Everyone in their life has a chance to receive the free offer of salvation. That the 'Book of Life' contains the names of believers does not in any way affect anyone's free will. If I am wrong about the 'Book of Life's' not having an effect, please provide an example otherwise.

The grace is not there for all under Calvinism - one must be elect.
 
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janxharris

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You can keep saying that over and over and over, but your faith is what distinguished you from all those other sinners who will be lost forever. Too bad they weren't as humble as you. Good job!

If I believe God gave me my faith, and I thank him for it, am I giving him too much credit?

I can't see that trusting equates to being humble.

Romans 4:4,5
 
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janxharris

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I'm still waiting for you to prove your theology to us by making yourself like Calvinism for a week. Why can't you do it?

I can see why it is possible to argue Calvinism from scripture but I still consider that it requires too much wresting. I cannot deny that I feel a certain sense of disappointment in the way some scriptures are worded.

I have come to the Forum here to clarify what scripture truly says. It is a process.

As it stands, I could not make myself a Calvinist.
 
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Grace is offered to those that believe Jesus. Their faith does not make them worthy because faith, as scripture states, is not a work and so because they are not worthy it is still grace. This is what was predestined - that believers would be Holy and blameless in His sight (for they are still not actually Holy and blameless, but God sees Jesus when He looks at believers).
Good points. To anyone in Christ, the Lord's grace is made permanently available by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

To the unsaved, His grace is made available when the gospel's preached, so they can be enabled to accept Christ and be saved. Everyone's offered this chance (several times if necessary) to have faith to accept Christ by the grace of God.

Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Ephesians 2:5
God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
 
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Skala

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Your statement is an attempt to deflect criticism that God is unfair under your theology.

Something you have failed to prove, yet you keep repeating it like a broken record.

Can you tell me what God is withholding that he owes to anyone? Who receives injustice at God's hands in my view?
 
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Skala

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I have not demanded what you say.



I have not said this.

Yes you have. You have said over and over again that if God had not given you a chance to be saved, he is unjust. Thus, you are saying that God owes it to you, and is obligated to give it to you.

The boast of any true Christian is that God didn't owe me anything and should have let me perish into hell.

Yet this exact thing is what you accuse God of being unfair/unjust about in the Calvinistic view
 
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Skala

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The grace is not there for all under Calvinism - one must be elect.

So grace is given to all equally in janxism?

A lot of good that does since the majority of the race ends up in hell.

At least the Calvinist view believes in grace that actually saves and makes a difference.
 
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janxharris

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Yes you have. You have said over and over again that if God had not given you a chance to be saved, he is unjust. Thus, you are saying that God owes it to you, and is obligated to give it to you.

The boast of any true Christian is that God didn't owe me anything and should have let me perish into hell.

Yet this exact thing is what you accuse God of being unfair/unjust about in the Calvinistic view

There seems to be some confusion here Skala...
I have not said that God is unjust if he did not give me a chance to be saved.

However, I a do think there is an injustice in unconditional election.
 
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Skala

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There seems to be some confusion here Skala...
I have not said that God is unjust if he did not give me a chance to be saved.

However, I a do think there is an injustice in unconditional election.

These two statements of yours are contradictory.

In unconditional election, who receives injustice? Who receives something they are not owed? Who is God withholding something from that he owes them?

I have asked you these questions repeatedly.
 
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janxharris

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So grace is given to all equally in janxism?

A lot of good that does since the majority of the race ends up in hell.

At least the Calvinist view believes in grace that actually saves and makes a difference.

Perhaps we should use the current analogy:

A teacher sets homework for her students but nobody completes the work on time. She extends the deadline to some of them but not all. No reason is given for her decision. Not surprisingly, those to whom she did not extend the deadline feel they have been dealt with unfairly.

Does this help?
 
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Arcoe

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These two statements of yours are contradictory.

In unconditional election, who receives injustice? Who receives something they are not owed? Who is God withholding something from that he owes them?

I have asked you these questions repeatedly.

Does God owe you heaven? If not, why do believe you should go there?
 
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Skala

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Perhaps we should use the current analogy:

A teacher sets homework for her students but nobody completes the work on time. She extends the deadline to some of them but not all. No reason is given for her decision. Not surprisingly, those to whom she did not extend the deadline feel they have been dealt with unfairly.

Does this help?

Why do you need to resort to an analogy?

If all men deserve hell, and God gives some of them mercy, that means some end up in hell which they deserve, and some end up in heaven which is mercy.

Can you tell me who receives injustice here?
 
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