Good Friday, a doctrine of men?

[Ken Rank]

Absolutely not. He raised after sunset, which was already Sunday. That is Yom HaBikkurim. Yeshua presented Himself to The Father as the firstfruits from among the dead on Sunday. We know His death and burial was on the 14th on Friday, resting in the tomb over Shabbat and rose on Yom HaBikkurim on Sunday, the 1st day of the week. We know this by witnesses and from the road to Emmaus. They said TODAY (Sunday) is the 3rd day since the events happened. So if Sunday is day 3 and Saturday is Day 2 then it was on Friday when the events occurred.

The problem is... and we don't have to agree here as we both, I assume, see "3 days and nights" (Matthew 12:40) is that I really think Sunday as a "day" goes too far. Yeshua was killed on the 14th of Nisan, we all agree with that. But he had to be taken down and buried before the Sabbath began (Luke 23:54-56) which means the day he died was preparation day (same previous verses) followed by a Sabbath... but that is only two days.

See, here is the problem... you can get 3 days from Friday to Sunday but you can't get 3 days and nights. Here is the calendar:

Friday - Day 1
Friday night - Night 1
Saturday - Day 2
Saturday night - Night 2
Sunday -Day 3
Sunday night - nobody believes he was still in the tomb

Notice that if you begin on Friday you simply cannot get "3 days AND nights." You can get three days, that's it. I submit that the 14th was a Thursday and that we have two Sabbaths, back to back, that fill the gap:

Thursday 3:00 PM Nisan 14 - Day 1
Thursday night - Nisan 15, first day of ULB and a High Sabbath - Night 1
Friday - Day 2
Friday night - Begin weekly Sabbath Night 2
Saturday - Day 3
Saturday night - end weekly Sabbath Night 3

This means that before the sun rose on Sunday morning the tomb would have to be empty.

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

When they got there, at sunrise, he was already risen.

Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
Matthre 28:6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

You can get three days AND nights as per Matthew 12:40 by his death being on Thursday afternoon.

 

[prodromos]

The problem is... and we don't have to agree here as we both, I assume, see "3 days and nights" (Matthew 12:40) is that I really think Sunday as a "day" goes too far. Yeshua was killed on the 14th of Nisan, we all agree with that. But he had to be taken down and buried before the Sabbath began (Luke 23:54-56) which means the day he died was preparation day (same previous verses) followed by a Sabbath... but that is only two days.

See, here is the problem... you can get 3 days from Friday to Sunday but you can't get 3 days and nights. Here is the calendar:

Friday - Day 1
Friday night - Night 1
Saturday - Day 2
Saturday night - Night 2
Sunday -Day 3
Sunday night - nobody believes he was still in the tomb

Notice that if you begin on Friday you simply cannot get "3 days AND nights." You can get three days, that's it. I submit that the 14th was a Thursday and that we have two Sabbaths, back to back, that fill the gap:

Thursday 3:00 PM Nisan 14 - Day 1
Thursday night - Nisan 15, first day of ULB and a High Sabbath - Night 1
Friday - Day 2
Friday night - Begin weekly Sabbath Night 2
Saturday - Day 3
Saturday night - end weekly Sabbath Night 3

This means that before the sun rose on Sunday morning the tomb would have to be empty.

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

When they got there, at sunrise, he was already risen.

Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
Matthre 28:6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

You can get three days AND nights as per Matthew 12:40 by his death being on Thursday afternoon.

I suggest you read pshun2404's posts in the 3 Days AND 3 Nights thread.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The problem is... and we don't have to agree here as we both, I assume, see "3 days and nights" (Matthew 12:40) is that I really think Sunday as a "day" goes too far. Yeshua was killed on the 14th of Nisan, we all agree with that. But he had to be taken down and buried before the Sabbath began (Luke 23:54-56) which means the day he died was preparation day (same previous verses) followed by a Sabbath... but that is only two days.

See, here is the problem... you can get 3 days from Friday to Sunday but you can't get 3 days and nights. Here is the calendar:

Friday - Day 1
Friday night - Night 1
Saturday - Day 2
Saturday night - Night 2
Sunday -Day 3
Sunday night - nobody believes he was still in the tomb

Notice that if you begin on Friday you simply cannot get "3 days AND nights." You can get three days, that's it. I submit that the 14th was a Thursday and that we have two Sabbaths, back to back, that fill the gap:

Thursday 3:00 PM Nisan 14 - Day 1
Thursday night - Nisan 15, first day of ULB and a High Sabbath - Night 1
Friday - Day 2
Friday night - Begin weekly Sabbath Night 2
Saturday - Day 3
Saturday night - end weekly Sabbath Night 3

This means that before the sun rose on Sunday morning the tomb would have to be empty.

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

When they got there, at sunrise, he was already risen.

Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
Matthre 28:6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

You can get three days AND nights as per Matthew 12:40 by his death being on Thursday afternoon.

Yes, I understand that you and many people need to believe that, but it is simply incorrect. Friday day 1, Saturday day 2 and Sunday day 3. Any portion of a day is considered a whole. Read the verses on the road to Emmaus. It is quite clear when those events occurred since Sunday was the 3rd day.

 

[Ken Rank]

I suggest you read pshun2404's posts in the 3 Days AND 3 Nights thread.

I understand and thanks. The phrases, "on the third day" and "in three days" are Hebraic idiomatic phrases and actually have more than one meaning. This is why I started my post to @Yeshua HaDerekh "we don't have to agree" on the details, because however we each are counting, we still agree on "three days."

That said... the sign of Jonah goes beyond the idiomatic phrase by including, "3 days AND NIGHTS." That leaves the idiom (which can still apply) and gets specific in having to include a third night as well. So you can idiomatically say that Yeshua was raised on the third day if in the course of 3 days and nights he did indeed raise. But for the purpose of the sign that he specifically mentioned to be a sign... the "and three nights" takes it out of idiom mode and gets specific.

You are welcome to prove me wrong, my ears are open.. but in the many years I have been looking at this, "in three days," or "on the third day" or even just "three days" are used idiomatically but "three days and nights" is not. I have never found another example of that being an idiom whereas I have found many examples of the others used idiomatically.

So.... until I see otherwise, it was three days AND nights... and that puts his death on Thursday afternoon at 3:00PM.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Any portion of a day is considered a whole.

Like the song in
the movie about a music instrument player on the
surface at the top of a house:
t r a d i t i o n
Not truth.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, I understand that you and many people need to believe that, but it is simply incorrect. Friday day 1, Saturday day 2 and Sunday day 3. Any portion of a day is considered a whole. Read the verses on the road to Emmaus. It is quite clear when those events occurred since Sunday was the 3rd day.

You might read the post I just shared and tagged you in. "Three days" is "on the third day" are idioms used elsewhere, abstractly, in Scripture. But "three days and nights" is not... it is specific.

 

[Ken Rank]

Like the song in
the movie about a music instrument player on the
surface at the top of a house:
t r a d i t i o n
Not truth.

And it is true Jeff... to the HEBREW... if Yeshua died at 3:00PM on (pick your day) then that day counts as one day. Yom (day) can mean 24 hours, the daytime hours, an undetermined amount of time (an age), or any part of a day.

We get all specific, God does not. The length of measurements in Scripture vary depending on who is taking the measurement. A foot wasn't 12" exactly... it was the length of a man's foot. A cubit the length from elbow to hand... and the size of a man caused this to vary. Not a big deal to God... a big deal to us because we are raised with everything having to fit perfectly.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I understand and thanks. The phrases, "on the third day" and "in three days" are Hebraic idiomatic phrases and actually have more than one meaning. This is why I started my post to @Yeshua HaDerekh "we don't have to agree" on the details, because however we each are counting, we still agree on "three days."

That said... the sign of Jonah goes beyond the idiomatic phrase by including, "3 days AND NIGHTS." That leaves the idiom (which can still apply) and gets specific in having to include a third night as well. So you can idiomatically say that Yeshua was raised on the third day if in the course of 3 days and nights he did indeed raise. But for the purpose of the sign that he specifically mentioned to be a sign... the "and three nights" takes it out of idiom mode and gets specific.

You are welcome to prove me wrong, my ears are open.. but in the many years I have been looking at this, "in three days," or "on the third day" or even just "three days" are used idiomatically but "three days and nights" is not. I have never found another example of that being an idiom whereas I have found many examples of the others used idiomatically.

So.... until I see otherwise, it was three days AND nights... and that puts his death on Thursday afternoon at 3:00PM.

I guess I have to go through this again for you? Again, read the road to Emmaus account. Sunday afternoon was the 3rd day since the events occurred. That day can only be Friday. That in itself proves the 3 day/night idiom wrong. Yeshua used the Yonah account as a comparison, not of any exact time but that as Yonah was in the great fish and survived, He would be in the tomb and will survive. THAT was the sign.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You might read the post I just shared and tagged you in. "Three days" is "on the third day" are idioms used elsewhere, abstractly, in Scripture. But "three days and nights" is not... it is specific.

It is specific in that it was a comparison to the story of Yonah. He also said, "destroy this temple and I will rebuild it IN 3 DAYS". Again, He did not correct them when they thought He was speaking of the Beit HaMikdash.

 

[Ken Rank]

I guess I have to go through this again for you? Again, read the road to Emmaus account. Sunday afternoon was the 3rd day since the events occurred. That day can only be Friday. That in itself proves the 3 day/night idiom wrong. Yeshua used the Yonah account as a comparison, not of any exact time but that as Yonah was in the great fish and survived, He would be in the tomb and will survive. THAT was the sign.

Brother... don't go through anything. I started with, "we don't have to agree" and you are starting to get frustrated. Don't bother... I don't care. I can lay this out in a timeline (we have it in a one hour PowerPoint starting from the day he came into Jerusalem... matched against what was happening in and around the Temple at the same time) and we arrive at Thursday. Wednesday makes Saturday night the 4th night, and Friday doesn't allow for a 3rd night. "Three days" is a Hebrew idiom WHICH CAN MEAN... "three days and nights." But the phrase, "three days AND NIGHTS" is not an idiom, it is specific. Yeshua was dead for 3 days and nights...not 72 hours... but parts of three consecutive days and nights.

 

[Ken Rank]

It is specific in that it was a comparison to the story of Yonah. He also said, "destroy this temple and I will rebuild it IN 3 DAYS". Again, He did not correct them when they thought He was speaking of the Beit HaMikdash.

Oh my gosh.... 4th time... "three days" is an idiom that can mean any part of 3 days, it can mean 72 hours, it can mean 3 days and nights. But when he said, "three days and nights" he left the abstract world of speech... he was no longer using an idiom, it was specific. "Three days" CAN BE an idiom... "three days and nights" is NOT. Look it up... instead of getting frustrated with me... do a Google search. You'll find "three days" "in three days " "on the third day" all idioms with various meanings. You won't find "three days and nights" to be an idiom. It is specific.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Brother... don't go through anything. I started with, "we don't have to agree" and you are starting to get frustrated. Don't bother... I don't care. I can lay this out in a timeline (we have it in a one hour PowerPoint starting from the day he came into Jerusalem... matched against what was happening in and around the Temple at the same time) and we arrive at Thursday. Wednesday makes Saturday night the 4th night, and Friday doesn't allow for a 3rd night. "Three days" is a Hebrew idiom WHICH CAN MEAN... "three days and nights." But the phrase, "three days AND NIGHTS" is not an idiom, it is specific. Yeshua was dead for 3 days and nights...not 72 hours... but parts of three consecutive days and nights.

But you DO care, as do I, otherwise you would not continue posting. I am not frustrated with you personally, just that this comes up every year.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess I have to go through this again for you? Again, read the road to Emmaus account.

Sorry, each step you propose is broken (wrong, in error).
Whatever or whoever you trusted in their explanation
got it all wrong, not just a little bit.

Sunday afternoon was the 3rd day since the events occurred.

Wrong. 4th day ending sunset to sabbath ending sunset makes 3 days. This fits perfectly with all Scripture.
You're accepted popular scheme doesn't. Never did, never will.

That day can only be Friday.

Totally wrong. Not even close to possible with Scripture.
ONly tradition, that has been known to be wrong for , well, since the beginning of deceiving people with it so long ago.

That in itself proves the 3 day/night idiom wrong.

Keep it truth , keep it simple: 3 days and 3 nights
means
3 days and 3 nights.
No twisting partial this, part of that to try to justify the wrong tradition, always proven false tradition.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Oh my gosh.... 4th time... "three days" is an idiom that can mean any part of 3 days, it can mean 72 hours, it can mean 3 days and nights. But when he said, "three days and nights" he left the abstract world of speech... he was no longer using an idiom, it was specific. "Three days" CAN BE an idiom... "three days and nights" is NOT. Look it up... instead of getting frustrated with me... do a Google search. You'll find "three days" "in three days " "on the third day" all idioms with various meanings. You won't find "three days and nights" to be an idiom. It is specific.

Again, it was specific BECAUSE it was specifically the telling of the Yonah story. He could not say in 3 days when the story was 3 days and nights. Understand?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Sorry, each step you propose is broken (wrong, in error).
Whatever or whoever you trusted in their explanation
got it all wrong, not just a little bit.
Wrong. 4th day ending sunset to sabbath ending sunset makes 3 days. This fits perfectly with all Scripture.
You're accepted popular scheme doesn't. Never did, never will.

Totally wrong. Not even close to possible with Scripture.
ONly tradition, that has been known to be wrong for , well, since the beginning of deceiving people with it so long ago.

Keep it truth , keep it simple: 3 days and 3 nights
means
3 days and 3 nights.
No twisting partial this, part of that to try to justify the wrong tradition, always proven false tradition.

The one in error here is you. You cant count. Read the road to Emmaus account. We have witnesses TELLING us what day it was. You can stay in your error or your eyes may be opened one day. I gave you the truth and you refuse...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The one in error here is you. You cant count. Read the road to Emmaus account. We have witnesses TELLING us what day it was. You can stay in your error or your eyes may be opened one day. I gave you the truth and you refuse...

Sorry. You have gone along with tradition instead of what is written.
According to tradition, I'm wrong. Obviously.

According to what is written, tradition is wrong, totally.

You have not given anyone the truth about this,
if
you had, we would be in agreement. (and it looks like you won't find out very soon)

 

[Ken Rank]

Again, it was specific BECAUSE it was specifically the telling of the Yonah story. He could not say in 3 days when the story was 3 days and nights. Understand?

Yes I do... but for some reason you can't seem to differentiate between the use of an idiom and an exact time. "Three days" can mean "three days and nights." But "three days and nights" isn't an idiom.... like I said, Google it. You will not find it in a Jewish or Hebrew source as being an idiom. "Three days" is an idiom, but "three days and nights" is not. Trust me, I looked... I wanted it to be.... I tried to make it be... but there is no evidence that is was ever used idiomatically. So... I had to accept that and work through the days... three days and nights means any part of 3 consecutive days and nights and if true... that means Thursday at 3:00PM.

But again... if you think he died Friday like Catholic tradition holds to... that's fine. You are still holding to him being dead for 3 days as you read Scripture. We are not in disagreement on the main point here... just on some details that don't matter.

Shalom.
Ken

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.

So we KNOW that day was Sunday. That day was the THIRD DAY since the events happened on the 14th. So it was Sunday the 16th. Saturday was the 15th and Friday was the 14th...REALLY SIMPLE.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Sorry. You have gone along with tradition instead of what is written.
According to tradition, I'm wrong. Obviously.

According to what is written, tradition is wrong, totally.

You have not given anyone the truth about this,
if
you had, we would be in agreement. (and it looks like you won't find out very soon)

No you are wrong Scripturally too and you cant count...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No you are wrong Scripturally too and you cant count...

He said she said huh ?

You continue if you like to go along with roman catholic tradition ,
and
I will continue to go along with God's Word. Simple.
They
have never been the same. (and they admit it! - because they have authority OVER God's Word, so they say)