GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
What do you believe that John 5:24 teaches that is different than what I shared in the matters of the "heareth" and "believeth"? Are these not a continual action with a beginning, rather than merely a one time off event?

It's what you spoke about and emphasized. I understand you to believe the Christian is obligated to the law. I post bout salvation, redemption and eternal life. I believe you think the Christian will appear in the judgment. The verse says we've already passed it.

The verse speaks of assurance, as it is in Christ Jesus. However, that assurance does not take away my freedom to walk away. This was the point I was attempting to get across. It is paralleled in Romans 8:31-39 KJB.

This is a change from your prior post. It's also a change of subject.

I do not hear "despair", nor "condemnation". I clearly showed that the text speaks of the "believing" Christian, will not come into "condmenation", which is ultimately the second death. That is the assurance.

However, it does not take away from the facts that all persons, will be judged by God, as the texts cited show. I do not need to make up any theologies in this. And since those texts are as valid as John 5:24 KJB, then they are to be studied together.

Most people have a wrong understanding of the Investigative Judgment. Is it an awesome and most serious thing? Absolutely, but it doesn't take away the assurance in Christ, nor the promises. It merely allows for the testing of the faith, and all faith must be tested, for there are true and false professing persons. If the faith is genuine, what unnecessary fear?

I believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent and all knowing God.

1 John 4:18 KJB - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If the faith were not so tested, sin could end up in Heaven all over again.

You preach salvation by obedience which bottom line is motivated by fear.

It will not be a matter of "tried". It is a matter of walking by the promises of God [New Covenant, "I will ...", thus the just living by faith, and so doing according to that "faith of Jesus". God brings those who will believe to completion, as He is the Author and the Finisher.

Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In-other-words one only has this right if the observe the ten commandments. I just do not buy that because it would be salvation by works (self justification by the law), not faith. You can say all you want to that grace or the Holy Spirit enables one to keep the law. The invitation has been extended for years to name anyone save Jesus having accomplished this incredible feat. So far I've never seen anyone's name. First and last name is required. If you want to say their sins will be remembered no more, you basically void the law.

Jesus Christ is the spiritual Tree of Life, notice:

John 6:57 KJB - As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Eating the words of Jesus, brings spiritual life. It is not a one time 'eating' and 'drinking'. It must be a 'daily' 'eating' and 'drinking' in His presence. It, again, is a continual ongoing, and even eternal, faith that must be alive.

What happened to the law? Isn't what you're doing called dualism of conflicting concepts?

Yes, Jesus is the door [which is sanctuary language], and in Him is no sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. See the condition? We must allow Him to cleanse us from "all unrighteousness" -- of every last sin, and tht includes transgression of HIs 4th Commandment in regards the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB]. If I may share a bit more on this door, as Paul mentions something very important:

There is a "door of faith":

Acts 14:27 KJB - And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Consider this about the word door:

used of any opening like a door, an entrance, way or passage into
in a parable or metaphor
1. the door through which sheep go in and out, the name of him who brings salvation to those who follow his guidance
2. "an open door" is used of the opportunity of doing something
3. the door of the kingdom of heaven (likened to a palace) denotes the conditions which must be complied with in order to be received into the kingdom of God

I think you should also look at the word church here. The word synagogue isn't used. Hmmm. My reason for noting this difference is in the promotion of the sabbath many verse show assembly in the synagogue.

How does one have this "door" opened? Natural to spiritual. We "knock", through asking, by Prayer, to God:

Matthew 7:7 KJB - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Luke 11:9 KJB - And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Now, notice the door of the human heart, does Jesus have Faith when He calls unto us? Doesn't He continually knock? Every knock is in Faith.

Revelation 3:20 KJB - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Who is doing the knocking in your verse? No I'm not trying to invalidate you other verse about seeking and knocking.

Laodicea, is interesting, in that since Jesus is outside, and He is the light, where then is the darkness? How then an a person see to open the door when the Light is outside? Notice that Laodicea has eye problems, and notice the counterfeit "light":

They aren't the only ones with eye problems.

About the rest of your post: I don't need the SDA clap trap, therefore it is deleted.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
I pray not Listed. Really. My Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, is in the Most Holy Place, and will forgive sin, if we come to Him, to have it forgiven and cleansed. We cannot enter heaven, while we remain in any sin. It is up to us to go to Christ, by listening to His pleading with us by/through the Holy Ghost. He cannot/will not make us come to Him. He draws by love. However, there is a time limit Listed, to overcome our personal sins. It cannot go on forever, for that would immortalize sin and sinners. Sin has a limited time:

This isn't evidenced in your posts.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
I understand time contraints. However, if I go back to the date of my post, and consider the time spent by some since it has been posted in other locations, my question would then be, could not a little of that time have been taken to consider the evidences presented in the other thread also?

Ok, I understand [I think].

May I ask you though, why do you spend the time you do here? For instance, I know why I do, but I am curious as to you. Is it so important to you, that you oppose those who teach to keep the 4th commandment? Is that so wrong a belief [in your perspective] that the time you do spend here is not better spent in those other things? I am just asking. I am curious to know.

What are you trying to do?

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
You mean that you do not believe in the [angelic] legions of light and the [angelic] legions of lie-ght [darkness]? if so, can I show you from scripture [KJB]? If not, can you explain a little more, for I am not sure I caught your meaning. Please.

Do you mean you don't understand "we" as I've used it here to mean the pro grace posters or Christians? Your post indicates satan and his host. I take this as an accusation.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Actually, spiritually, he was. Egypt is symbolic of the world/worldliness/sin, numerous texts on that [see also "spiritually Egypt" in Revelation 11:8 KJB, Isaiah 19:1,3, "the heart of Egypt", "the spirit of Egypt", see also Exodus 20:2; Deuteronomy 5:6 "house of bondage"; Hebrews 11:24-27, "pleasures of sin"; Jeremiah 9:26, "uncircumcised of heart"; 2 Timothy 3:8, "resist the truth" &c]. However, if we look at the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], in Exodus 20:2 [Deuteronomy 5:6 KJB] KJB is the preamble so to speak [not an actual commandment], of God's saving Grace. Exodus 20:3 [Deuteronomy 5:7] KJB, is the actual first commandment, which is:

Exodus 20:3 KJB - Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

In Adam's physical life time you can't show he we was delivered or redeemed from sin. In fact he was kicked out of Eden (Canaan - the picture word).

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Listed, the words of the OT, come by the Holy Ghost, right?

2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 KJB - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:16 KJB - Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 28:25 KJB - And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

etc.

But the Holy Ghost speaks that which He hears, which is Jesus words:

John 16:12 KJB - I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

John 16:13 KJB - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Revelation 3:1 KJB - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 22:16 KJB - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 KJB - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Therefore, the OT words are the words of Jesus, by and through the Holy Ghost, even as the Ten Commandments are, written with the Finger of God, the Holy Ghost [Exodus 8:19, 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10; Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28 KJB]. The Holy Ghost is the representative of Christ Jesus on earth.

I must quote it unto death, even the death of the cross.

In quoting the scripture, how did I add to the word of God? please explain. I am citing scripture, which explains itself, such as what the "word" is, etc, as per Genesis 40:8; Isaiah 28:10,13, KJB, etc.

Are these word from the Holy Ghost:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Can you show me from scripture, where the Ten Commandments are only given to Israel? I read Deuteronomy 5 KJB. I see several things therein, but not that the Ten Commandments are only for Israel.

You missed this?

5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

That is just unreal.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
The OT [Genesis to Malachi] has everything to do with Christianity. It is the very word which Jesus quoted against the devil, and it is the very word by which the words of Matthew to Revelation are to be tested, etc. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John quoted extensively from the OT [Genesis to Malachi].

Christianity isn't based on the OT. Christianity is based solely in the NT.

Listed. Please listen. Please open to Deuteromony 4:13. Please pray before so doing. now as you read, show me where the Ten Commandments are called the 'old covenant'. in Deuteronomy 4:13. Listed it isn't there. You might say by other texts ... but you quoted to me Deuteornomy 4:13. Here is what it plainly says:

OK I listened. I claim the ten commandments are the covenant. Your claim is this isn't the old covenant because the word old isn't in the verse. You however can't claim they are part and parcel of the NT. Jeremiah says the new covenant isn't like the covenant made with Israel. You can't have new with out old.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
The OT [Genesis to Malachi] has everything to do with Christianity. It is the very word which Jesus quoted against the devil, and it is the very word by which the words of Matthew to Revelation are to be tested, etc. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John quoted extensively from the OT [Genesis to Malachi].

Listed. Please listen. Please open to Deuteromony 4:13. Please pray before so doing. now as you read, show me where the Ten Commandments are called the 'old covenant'. in Deuteronomy 4:13. Listed it isn't there. You might say by other texts ... but you quoted to me Deuteornomy 4:13. Here is what it plainly says:

Deuteronomy 4:13 KJB - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The Ten Commandments were to be "perform[ed]", by the peoples Israel because they [in Exodus 19 & 24] had agreed to obey God's voice in all things. The Ten Commandments are God's "my covenant", "his covenant". They are not the agreement between the peoples Israel and God, which was "If ... then ..." and "All that the LORD hath said, we will do."

Are you really trying to say the ten commandments aren't what Israel agreed to?

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Actually both statements together, made an excellent point, at least to my mind. And yet, there may be something else in there, for instance, Jesus is now also man. He still enters into the counsels of God, His Father, and the Father hears the Son, and the Son the Father. I have to think on that some more. Interesting, [at least to my mind] that came out of that exchange between you both.

Where does Jesus take the counsel of the Jews?

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Listed. I accept the New Covenant. God's Law is written upon my heart to both to will, do and obey the laws He wrote there, as he said He would as found in scripture [KJB], which is why I can test the law written upon my heart, by the word of God, and see that it is what God said He would write there.

You have no new covenant because you claim the old covenant is written on the heart. You further claim is isn't the covenant, but require the keeping of the 4th point of the law. You're self conflicted.

I do have questions for Marco70 though on that, in how he tests that which is upon his heart, but it seems I will not get an answer at the moment, but perhaps at some future event, hopefully not too far, time is very short.

The old covenant still exists today. We ought to be aware of what it is, and knowledgeable about it. God does not say things, by/through the Holy Ghost to merely tickle our curiosities. Man lives by "every word" that proceedeth out of the mouth of God [and especially the Ten Commandments, since He most certainly spake those aloud].

We don't deny the record. The old covenant you both talk about and claim to keep is written on the heart. Jeremiah flat out says no.

If the old is not understood, how then can the new be seen for what it really is?

There's no new covenant by what you claim. You tlk about a continued and amended (old) covenant. Jeremiah doesn't say God will make anew the covenant already given. That isn't a typo using the word "anew."

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
I quoted them all. You mean this verse?

Jeremiah 31:32 KJB - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

How so?

What covenant did God make with Israel? Isn't it:

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

listed · May 12, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
If I may also participate:

"... Not an external written letter, stony law. Now as it was always meant to be, an internally written, fleshy [not fleshly] law of spirit.

The Holy Ghost writes both.

Same Law.

Differing [a change in] ministrations [not Moses and lambs blood, but Jesus and His blood].

Differing [a change in] glories [not the face of Moses, but the face of Jesus].

Differing [a change in] locations [not stone, but flesh/heart].

Differing [a change in] promises [not the peoples "we will do", but God's "I will"].

This is the difference in the covenants. The promises of the people were fleeting, vanity, but the promises of God are eternal, unfailing. ..." - The Sabbth-day Law Can Be Violated

Jeremiah is talking about contents.

listed · May 12, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
As usual, you misread... I said you were ignorant of the sanctuary message. Unless you would like to show the gospel though the OT sanctuary service and prove me wrong.

I'm not ignorant of the Sanctuary doctrine as I already posted.

listed · May 12, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
The same as how the Commandment to not murder changed... from merely the literal "letter" to the figurative "spirit". We are told by Christ that not only is killing someone wrong but also the seed, anger, is also under condemnation unless repented of.

The Sabbath is no different... the literal "letter" still applies... not working and doing our own pleasure on God's Holy day but now the "spirit" also is understood. That we are to rest in Christ and give glory to the Creator of all things. The Sabbath is not now just about physical rest but also reverence and recognition of our Creator. To contemplate the spiritual aspects of our world through nature and to glorify the maker of Heaven and earth.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

listed · May 12, 2018

Marco70 said:
Though there is nothing to be gained by responding to your posts...

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Under the NC the law God desires you to follow is written in your heart and placed on your mind. Therefore, if, or when you wilfully transgress it, you MUST(MUST) have heartfelt conviction you sin by doing so. As, if you understood where your theology leads, you would agree with me. But you appear not to. It seems you believe you can only be sure of knowing what sin is/the law God desires you to follow by reading the letter of OT law. Why? Do you not believe sin is the transgression of the law? Do you not believe through the law we become conscious of sin? Do you not believe the law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of the believer? What is in your mind, you in your mind must surely know, and the law in your heart must bring heartfelt conviction of sin if you wilfully transgress it. And yet, you appear to disagree.

As to which law is written on the heart and mind.
I think(correct me if I am wrong) You agree with lgw, the entire law God wants you to follow is based on the TC. All other law is a derivative of the Ten. So if you obey the TC, you will find yourself obeying all the law God desires you to follow.

Lets look at Jesus words:

Jesus replied: ‘“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
Matt22:37-40

Now I'm sure you will not criticise Jesus for failing to say the law hangs on obeying the TC, but rather the law hangs on loving God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. And there are many dirivites of this. are you now asking me to give an inexhaustible list of dirivites of love God and love your neighbour? Do you wish to do the same where the TC are concerned?

I will give you one example, of love your neighbour, hows that?
Paul wrote:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

Is it in your heart and mind to love your neighbour as yourself, to carry their burdens in love for them?
If it is, would you agree with what is in my heart and mind, that to reel off the partial letter of scripture, and to demand of others by doing so, what you do not demand of yourself/you fail to practice in your own life, is to go against the heart of the law that must be in the believers heart and mind. And therefore, you must, if you have truly been born again be conscious you do wrong by doing so? For you would not be carrying your brothers burdens in love, but crushing him with burdens you yourself do not even try to carry. And, Jesus called that hypocrisy.
Hope you will answer the question. Thanks in advance

By their posting I don't think they know what sin is. It does appear what they post is sin for others but not themselves not even if they amend it.

listed · May 12, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
Death will indeed come to the Law breakers... the new covenant is an individual one not corporate like the old.

Only those who refuse Jesus as their Redeemer will be judge guilty of sin and be eternally separated from God, not cease to exist.

listed · May 12, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
Any known unrepented sin will stand in Judgement... the seed of the outward sin is in the mind. Remember though, temptation is not sin, only the harbouring and contemplation on the tempting thought.

Not according to John 5:24.

Marco70 · May 12, 2018

listed said:
By their posting I don't think they know what sin is. Ot does appear what they post is sin for others but not themselves not even if they amend it.

I agree. I'm afraid they are reduced to making pat statements from their heads that have no bearing on the reality of their own lives. I grew up with it! I can only repeat. Over decades I have seen, the people who most earnestly insist you must obey the TC/to remain saved/be in a saved state/attain heaven etc, etc, are the very people who can most casually break the moral law, and justify sin as no sin at all.
I think it has something to do with, only recognising sin by reading the OT law-in many cases.

Bob S · May 12, 2018

Hi The7thColporteur, I have a few comments and some questions.

At Sinai did God give the book of the law to the Israelites?

Do the commands in the book of the law explain the consequences of breaking the ones written on stone?

Where are the commands to love found?

Where do SDAs get their unclean meat command?

Why do you call the book of the law shadow laws when we get the most important commands from them?

The 10 commandment covenant, as you refer to it as "my covenant", was a bilateral covenant, it was conditional on both parties. IF one broke the covenant then the covenant would become obsolete. Is this not what happened?

If the "my covenant" was broken, and I am sure you would agree that it was then how could an obsolete covenant become the new and better covenant with better promises?

Paul wrote the following: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Why did Paul write his thoughts in past tense?

In verse 11 why did Paul write that the 10 were done away?

Why did Paul write that the ministration of the Spirit be glorious?

Was Paul telling us that instead of the 10 commandments being our guide it is now the Holy Spirit that leads us into a righteous life?

What place then would the done away ministry of death have on our being when we are under the power of the Holy Spirit?

Why would anyone tell us that it is the 10 commands, the ministry of death that is written on our hearts?

Why in 1Jn3:19-24 John tells us we are doing right if we believe in Him and love others as Jesus loves us?

Why didn't John tell us to observe the "my law" with its Sabbath command, you know the command that has a halo around it?

Well, it is obvious that the 10 commandments were the schoolmaster to bring Israelites to the need of the Savior. For them it still a beacon. Gentiles never had that beacon. We were taught righteousness by faith. The ministry of death couldn't save one soul. All it could do is condemn all of Israel.

GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

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