God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

[Optimax]

God never commands the Lost to Keep His commandments.

In Exodus 20:6 IN The TEN Commandments we are to "LOVE God and Keep His Commandments".

in John 14:15 "IF you LOVE ME - KEEP My Commandments".

All of these are the pre-cross teaching of God under the ONE Gospel.

The command to the lost is to surrender, to give up, to repent, to confess, but not to "try harder to be good" because the lost DO Not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they.

in Christ,

Bob

The ten commandments were given to Moses.

Moses was not born again, neither was the millions that were with him.

The ten were given to the lost.

 

[MJohn7]

The ten commandments were given to Moses.

Moses was not born again, neither was the millions that were with him.

The ten were given to the lost.

I think you are mistaken to suggest Moses was lost.

 

[from scratch]

And BEFORE that we have Romans 7


6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This says we've been released from the law. Just like you quoted. But the problem arises because you seem to think we're now bound in the spirit what we've been released from in the flesh.

Not so. We've been released in the Spirit from the law. We're not obligated to the law in any form. Every needs a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees. Where did they get their righteousness from? Wasn't it from obedience to the law? Is any one obedient to the law? Not according to the Psalms.

Romans 4 explains the details. It says by imputation (declaration) of God.

Phil 3:9 says its not our righteousness. Therefore it can't come by our obedience to the law including the Ten Commandments. If one sins for violation one is (self)righteous for obedience. No one can acquire in such a manner. The law doesn't provide for salvation. The law only provides for death.

Paul both demonstrates this and calls the law the ministration of death. No where does Paul say the law brings life.

 

[BobRyan]

The ten commandments were given to Moses.

Moses was not born again, neither was the millions that were with him.

The ten were given to the lost.

Moses stands with Christ and Elijah in Matt 17.

Moses is listed among the saved in Heb 11 - those who stand by faith, "The righteousness which is by Faith" Heb 11:7 this might be the lost condition for some - but in my view it is the saved state that a lost person does not have.

As Romans 8:6-8 the only thing a lost person can do with the Ten Commandments is stand condemned and be unnable to keep it or submit to it. Which if they know it -and that is the case -should lead them to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Optimax]

Moses stands with Christ and Elijah in Matt 17.

Moses is listed among the saved in Heb 11 - those who stand by faith, "The righteousness which is by Faith" Heb 11:7 this might be the lost condition for some - but in my view it is the saved state that a lost person does not have.

As Romans 8:6-8 the only thing a lost person can do with the Ten Commandments is stand condemned and be unnable to keep it or submit to it. Which if they know it -and that is the case -should lead them to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

Ok.

Explain to me how Moses or anyone that lived in OT times could be born again before Jesus came.

Before Jesus was resurrected no one could be born again (saved).

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Regarding Romans 8:6-8 being ignored --

Originally Posted by Sophrosyne

Read the verses before these to get the correct context if you dare to.
​

So then - anything about vs 6-8?


Here as some verses before Romans 8:6-8

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Emphasizing again that the saints are in favor of the Law of God - and lost -- at war with it. Because the Law of God is written on the heart of the saints.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And BEFORE that we have Romans 7


6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

This says we've been released from the law.

Just like you quoted.

It says that the saved are in perfect agreement with the Law of God and that "sin in them" is at war with it.

It says that the lost are released from the condemnation of the Law by dying with Christ (Romans 6) but then they are fully in agreement with the law of God.

The problem with some arguments on this thread is that they "circle back" to the view that the lost person has of the Law of God. The lost are at war with it - the saints are in harmony with it.

Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In 2Cor 3 the Law is only death to the lost - to those who have it external - but not written on the heart as on tablets of the human heart - under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MJohn7]

Ok.

Explain to me how Moses or anyone that lived in OT times could be born again before Jesus came.

Before Jesus was resurrected no one could be born again (saved).

They sure were not lost. Faith justified them.

 

[Optimax]

They sure were not lost. Faith justified them.

They had to wait until Jesus was resurrected before they could be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok.

Explain to me how Moses or anyone that lived in OT times could be born again before Jesus came.

Before Jesus was resurrected no one could be born again (saved).

Before the Cross - Elijah and Moses stand glorified with Christ in Matt 17. Peter is so befuddled by this that he wants to build temples/memorials to all 3 of them - not realizing that just because they are in glorified form and appear with Christ as He is glorified - that does not make them equal to God. Christ alone is God.

Elijah goes directly to heaven in 2Kings.

Enoch goes directly to heaven in Genesis 5.

Paul says in Heb 4:1-2 "WE have had the GOSPEL preached to US Just as they also" speaking of OT Jews vs saints after the cross.

Gal 1:6-11 "there is only ONE Gospel".
Gal 3 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".

1Cor 10 "They all drank from the same SPIRITUAL Rock and that Rock was Christ".

John 3 - BEFORE the Cross Jesus says to Nicodemus "unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven...are you a Bible teacher in Israel and yet you claim not to already know this?"

In Heb 11 the giants of faith held up to NT saints - are all OT saints.

2Peter 2:20-21 "HOLY men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke FROM GOD".

Numbers 12 "If there is a prophet among you I will speak to them in a dream or a vision - but not so with MY servant Moses - with Him I speak FACE to Face... therefore you should have been afraid to speak against Him".

I think we have quite a bit of Bible evidence that the OT saints were saved because as God says in Romans 4 "He counts those things that are not - as though they are" and so the "Lamb was slain from the Foundations of the World" in the timeless eyes of God.

Hebrews 11 says "without faith it is impossible to please God" but they ALL gained acceptance with God (all the saints of the OT) for they are listed among the faithful - the people of faith, the great cloud of witnesses. The only thing missing for them is that they must wait for the end of the NT age for the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MJohn7]

They had to wait until Jesus was resurrected before they could be saved.

And not all were destroyed in the wilderness, those who stayed faithful got to the promise land. Perhaps the promised land is a shadow or symbol of something greater, i.e., the kingdom

 

[from scratch]

Before the Cross - Elijah and Moses stand glorified with Christ in Matt 17. Peter is so befuddled by this that he wants to build temples/memorials to all 3 of them - not realizing that just because they are in glorified form and appear with Christ as He is glorified - that does not make them equal to God. Christ alone is God.

Elijah goes directly to heaven in 2Kings.

Enoch goes directly to heaven in Genesis 5.

Paul says in Heb 4:1-2 "WE have had the GOSPEL preached to US Just as they also" speaking of OT Jews vs saints after the cross.

Gal 1:6-11 "there is only ONE Gospel".
Gal 3 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".

1Cor 10 "They all drank from the same SPIRITUAL Rock and that Rock was Christ".

John 3 - BEFORE the Cross Jesus says to Nicodemus "unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven...are you a Bible teacher in Israel and yet you claim not to already know this?"

In Heb 11 the giants of faith held up to NT saints - are all OT saints.

2Peter 2:20-21 "HOLY men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke FROM GOD".

Numbers 12 "If there is a prophet among you I will speak to them in a dream or a vision - but not so with MY servant Moses - with Him I speak FACE to Face... therefore you should have been afraid to speak against Him".

I think we have quite a bit of Bible evidence that the OT saints were saved because as God says in Romans 4 "He counts those things that are not - as though they are" and so the "Lamb was slain from the Foundations of the World" in the timeless eyes of God.

Hebrews 11 says "without faith it is impossible to please God" but they ALL gained acceptance with God (all the saints of the OT) for they are listed among the faithful - the people of faith, the great cloud of witnesses. The only thing missing for them is that they must wait for the end of the NT age for the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

So is the message we don't need Jesus? After all those you mentioned didn't if I follow you. Never mind what Jesus says in John 10.

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 10 "They all drank from a SPIRITUAL Rock ...and that Rock was Christ".

So is the message we don't need Jesus?

I find your logic illusive.

After all those you mentioned didn't if I follow you. .

Jesus is the God of both the NT and the OT. The OT saints were Christians in that sense.

1 Cor 10
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

"The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:1-2

The only way to remove Christ from the OT is to imagine a "Christless Christ" in 1Cor 10 and a "Christless Gospel" in Heb 4:1-2

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3.

I do not imagine such christless models to be supported in the Bible. My guess is that you will agree with this.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Optimax]

OT saints looked forward to the cross.

NT saints look back to the cross.

OT saints had to wait, could not go to heaven until Jesus was raised from the dead.

They had to wait because Jesus had not paid the penalty for sin.

Therefore no one could be born again until Jesus was resurrected.

 

[MJohn7]

OT saints looked forward to the cross.

NT saints look back to the cross.

OT saints had to wait, could not go to heaven until Jesus was raised from the dead.

They had to wait because Jesus had not paid the penalty for sin.

Therefore no one could be born again until Jesus was resurrected.

Born again to hope.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[from scratch]

1Cor 10 "They all drank from a SPIRITUAL Rock ...and that Rock was Christ".

That spiritual rock isn't Jesus Christ. You don't understand the word Christ is a title and not a name.

I find your logic illusive.

So what. God isn't logical either.

 

[FredVB]

Yahweh provided for the faith that was needed in old testament times as well, and he used types for Christ to do that, with this there were people coming to the faith and having that life in him. It was certain as Christ's atonement was ordained and God always knew about it and its effectiveness. Such incomprehensible love is what he had for us that he made all of creation with that planned. So people then were saved just as much as people since, with it showing in the obedience to what Yahweh said was to be done.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Its alright with me you attack by miniscule point to promote keeping the law.

I responded to the phrase "the law". The Christian isn't obligated to any the law.

I am not promoting the Law there brother. Where do you get that?

Jesus' simple commands of love is following the law. I am saying you are following the law no matter what you do. I can't accuse you of not doing this. You're a Christian, so its automatically implied to me you are.

 

[from scratch]

I am not promoting the Law there brother. Where do you get that?

Jesus' simple commands of love is following the law. I am saying you are following the law no matter what you do. I can't accuse you of not doing this. You're a Christian, so its automatically implied to me you are.

So are you promoting universal salvation? My neighbor performs like Romans 2 says of Gentiles. We know that Paul was talking about pagans not Christians or Jews.

I think the distinction that needs to be made is one isn't living a life style of sin such as Enoch, Noah and Abraham before the law.

Not sinning isn't obedience to the law.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Not sinning isn't obedience to the law.

Here is something that legalists cannot fathom... that sin is not dependent upon the Law.

 

[from scratch]

Here is something that legalists cannot fathom... that sin is not dependent upon the Law.

But they quote Bible about it all the time. One of them even quoted the whole verse recently.