LDS God pre-existed the Universe

[PeaceJoyLove]

Jane,
Here is the OP

Mormonism teaches God is a resurrected man from another planet who attained Godhood. The bible teaches that God created the Universe and everything in it:

Her is what you said: "D&C does not say anything in relation to the OP."
And then what Brigham Young taught is below. So, you are saying what Brigham Young taught is 'speculation'?

Doctrine and Covenants" of LDS[/I]

[Y]e shall come forth in the first resurrection; … and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths … (and you) shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to (their) exaltation.” (132)

This passage concludes with “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue… . Then they shall be gods because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them.” (132:20)

Again, to address the OP - Brigham Young TAUGHT “[T]hat God the Father was once a man on another planet who ‘passed the ordeal we are now passing through…

 

[Jane_Doe]

So, you are saying what Brigham Young taught is 'speculation'?

Yes, for the ninth time.

LDS doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Other statements are NOT automatically doctrine. More useful info: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

The quote you are referring (which originated with Lorezno Snow, not Brigham Young) is speculation, not actively taught in church, and an LDS person is free to be oblivious/agree/disagree/notcare/whatever about it and be 100% in good standing.

 

[frienden thalord]

I have told you multiple times now that it is Jesus Christ whom is my head and testifies through the Spirit. I cannot and will not follow anyone else.

the catholics say they follow JESUS
etc. the question remains HOW does ONE truly KNOW they follow JESUS
cause all them religions cant be right.
HOW does one KNOW they truly follow ONLY CHRIST
and not men. OH, the answer is clear as crystal.
HOW, I did not ask if you DO follow JESUS
I asked HOW do you KNOW its really JESUS.
their is a clear and conscise answer.
let me hear yours.

 

[frienden thalord]

And how does this flow from what I posted?

You said , you had death threats, from even mainline christains

 

[Jane_Doe]

the catholics say they follow JESUS
etc. the question remains HOW does ONE truly KNOW they follow JESUS
cause all them religions cant be right.
HOW does one KNOW they truly follow ONLY CHRIST
and not men. OH, the answer is clear as crystal.
HOW, I did not ask if you DO follow JESUS
I asked HOW do you KNOW its really JESUS.
their is a clear and conscise answer.
let me hear yours.

I've already given you a concise answer many times.

 

[frienden thalord]

Here is how we KNOW we are following JESUS
and not some other spirit .
IF the Spirit within you has you living HIS sayings YOU KNOW CHRIST
but, if any is
omitting or chaning them, that is the work of satan.
Got bad news...........all religions have omitted parts of his sayings.
twisted them,
so lets reread them sayings and go one by one
and see who is following Christ or some other spirit.
I am the ONLY way to the FATHER , NO other way.
so. IF we cant sit and hug in the name of world peace
and warn muslims not to repent of their false god allah
JESUS is not in us.
period. IF I can tell a muslim , hey man its all good
we worshp the same god differently
we all get heaven. Then I would be of satan.
if I try and trick myself into believing
that I don't have to say anything to them.
I can just do good works with them
yet refuse to show them Christ and tell them
they follow a false god. I would be following satan.
If I say one has his way , I have mine
and we all get to heaven. I would be of satan.
if I say, well hey everyones going to be saved anyway
so I don't really have to warn men to repent
then I would be of satan.
Would you all agree with that.
GO ye into all the world preaching the gospel.
How bout remariage
how bout not taking any to court
how bout not swearing
How bout his dire warnings
How bout if any loves family , son or daugther etc wife or husaband
more than me , HE is not worthy of me.
would you agree.

 

[thesunisout]

Teach this belief? I went through and documented the number of Sunday School / other sermons that even touch on this subject in any speculative manner (not even doctrinal). The sum total was <10 minutes in the last 270720 minutes of teaching, or 0.005%.

When was the last time you attended LDS services and saw this taught?

Jane, please stop pretending this belief is "speculation". It was taught verbatim by your prophet. Without Joseph Smith the Mormon religion wouldn't exist. Here it is again:

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

He obviously wasn't speculating when he taught what God the Father was like, he was "taking away the veil so that we could see".

This is the doctrine of your church. It's on the church website Jane:

Becoming Like God

"What kind of a being is God?” he asked. Human beings needed to know, he argued, because “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”36 In that phrase, the Prophet collapsed the gulf that centuries of confusion had created between God and humanity. Human nature was at its core divine. God “was once as one of us”

The sermon is also on your churches website:

The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971 - ensign

Joseph is collapsing the gulf of centuries of confusion by teaching us that God was once as one of us. This should be such a revelation to you about the truth of your religion that you know this belief is completely indefensible. It is so indefensible that your only strategy is to deny that it is a doctrine of your church.

If your prophet was wrong, then come out and say he was wrong. The followup question is obvious. What else was he wrong about? God taught us that if a prophet teaches something that wasn't true about God, he was not only a false prophet but he deserved to die.

Deuteronomy 18:20

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die

So which is it Jane? Is Joseph Smith a false prophet who deserved to die, or is what he said about God the Father true? Please stop doing this dance and also cherry picking my posts. Please directly answer these points.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane, please stop pretending this belief is "speculation". It was taught verbatim by your prophet.

Which does NOT automatically make it doctrine or True.

Thesunisout: you're misunderstanding fundamental LDS beliefs by seemingly trying to impose some type of "whatever comes out a leader's mouth is automatically doctrine" idea that has no place in actual LDS theology. Now, you can either acknowledge this error or not, that's your choice. But don't except any LDS person to take your assessment of the LDS faith seriously while you are blatantly choosing to misunderstand it in this way. If you want to learn and be taken seriously, I'm happy to explain it to you. But if you're not interested and just want to preach your misunderstanding at me, I'll pass. Again, your choice.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Here is how we KNOW we are following JESUS
and not some other spirit .
IF the Spirit within you has you living HIS sayings YOU KNOW CHRIST
but, if any is
omitting or chaning them, that is the work of satan.
Got bad news...........all religions have omitted parts of his sayings.
twisted them,
so lets reread them sayings and go one by one
and see who is following Christ or some other spirit.
I am the ONLY way to the FATHER , NO other way.
so. IF we cant sit and hug in the name of world peace
and warn muslims not to repent of their false god allah
JESUS is not in us.
period. IF I can tell a muslim , hey man its all good
we worshp the same god differently
we all get heaven. Then I would be of satan.
if I try and trick myself into believing
that I don't have to say anything to them.
I can just do good works with them
yet refuse to show them Christ and tell them
they follow a false god. I would be following satan.
If I say one has his way , I have mine
and we all get to heaven. I would be of satan.
if I say, well hey everyones going to be saved anyway
so I don't really have to warn men to repent
then I would be of satan.
Would you all agree with that.
GO ye into all the world preaching the gospel.
How bout remariage
how bout not taking any to court
how bout not swearing
How bout his dire warnings
How bout if any loves family , son or daugther etc wife or husaband
more than me , HE is not worthy of me.
would you agree.

I am not denying the existence of one ultimately Truth and that Jesus Christ is the way. There are people who obviously believe other things. I'm going to keep respecting their right to believe whatever in peace. I will cerebrate whatever limited goodness they have and treat them with kindness. Meanwhile my hand will be continually outstretched offering to share more of Christ's goodness to whomever would welcome it into their life.

 

[thesunisout]

Which does NOT automatically make it doctrine or True.

Thesunisout: you're misunderstanding fundamental LDS beliefs by seemingly trying to impose some type of "whatever comes out a leader's mouth is automatically doctrine" idea that has no place in actual LDS theology. Now, you can either acknowledge this error or not, that's your choice. But don't except any LDS person to take your assessment of the LDS faith seriously while you are blatantly choosing to misunderstand it in this way. If you want to learn and be taken seriously, I'm happy to explain it to you. But if you're not interested and just want to preach your misunderstanding at me, I'll pass. Again, your choice.

Again, you're cherry picking my posts which is intellectually dishonest.

Joseph Smith isn't some leader of your church, he is its main PROPHET and he speaks for God. There would be no Mormons without Joseph Smith. So when a prophet teaches about what God is like, he isn't speculating, he is imparting doctrine.

Jane, own your belief system. Stop trying to pretend that Mormons don't believe this or Joseph Smith didn't teach this as doctrine. You clearly do and he clearly did even according to your own website.

The question remains; if Joseph Smith taught falsehood about God, does he deserve to die according to Deuteronomy 18:20? If what he taught was true, what is your answer to the massive contradiction to the word of God which says God is eternal and there are no other gods?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again, you're cherry picking my posts which is intellectually dishonest.

Joseph Smith isn't some leader of your church, he is its main PROPHET and he speaks for God. There would be no Mormons without Joseph Smith. So when a prophet teaches about what God is like, he isn't speculating, he is imparting doctrine.

Jane, own your belief system. Stop trying to pretend that Mormons don't believe this or Joseph Smith didn't teach this as doctrine. You clearly do and he clearly did even according to your own website.

The question remains; if Joseph Smith taught falsehood about God, does he deserve to die according to Deuteronomy 18:20? If what he taught was true, what is your answer to the massive contradiction to the word of God which says God is eternal and there are no other gods?

(Warning: incoming bluntness)

Thesunisout, you are grossly misunderstanding and misrepresenting LDS beliefs. If your goal here is to somehow evangelize me through repeating your misunderstanding over and over again: frankly, you are wasting your time and will only give me a negative opinion of yourself.

If you are willing to actually talk with me and learn what LDS folks actually believe, then I'm willing to explain them to you.

Please let me know which of the above two options your are honestly interested in. I will wait to respond to rest of your posts until this question is answered.

 

[thesunisout]

(Warning: incoming bluntness)

Thesunisout, you are grossly misunderstanding and misrepresenting LDS beliefs. If your goal here is to somehow evangelize me through repeating your misunderstanding over and over again: frankly, you are wasting your time and will only give me a negative opinion of yourself.

If you are willing to actually talk with me and learn what LDS folks actually believe, then I'm willing to explain them to you.

Please let me know which of the above two options your are honestly interested in. I will wait to respond to rest of your posts until this question is answered.

Jane, I know what Mormons believe; it's on your website, it is in your writings, it is in the testimony of Mormons in history, and today. It's all over the internet. Your prophet taught it as truth. Your blanket denial of the obvious facts show the poverty of your religion, that you consider its doctrines to be so indefensible that you deny they are true. Maybe you can live with that internal contradiction, but I never could. I gave up my beliefs and gave my life to the Lord because the truth is more important than my personal preferences. God gave me the grace to see that and I pray He does the same for you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane, I know what Mormons believe

The fact that you are trying to impose this mistaken idea that "anything that comes out of a prophet's mouth is automatically doctrine" is great evidence to the contrary. Reality is that LDS believe that there's only be one perfect man on this earth: Jesus Christ. All others are not.

I am actually going to be meeting with some Mormon missionaries this week to debate the issue.

No, you are not. If the LDS missionaries are coming over to meet with you, they are coming over to teach you. If you are uninterested in learning, they will simply leave.

Maybe you can live with that internal contradiction, but I never could. I gave up my beliefs and gave my life to the Lord because the truth is more important than my personal preferences. God gave me the grace to see that and I pray He does the same for you.

If you want to understand me, you're welcome to ask (and no, there is no contradictions or conflicts). IF you wish to pray for a person you refuse to understand, you of course can do that too.

 

[thesunisout]

The fact that you are trying to impose this mistaken idea that "anything that comes out of a prophet's mouth is automatically doctrine" is great evidence to the contrary. Reality is that LDS believe that there's only be one perfect man on this earth: Jesus Christ. All others are not.

When a prophet is teaching others about God, it is doctrine. What do you think "I will take away the veil so that you can see" means?

No, you are not. If the LDS missionaries are coming over to meet with you, they are coming over to teach you. If you are uninterested in learning, they will simply leave.

You're wrong Jane, I have already discussed this subject with them and they said they wanted to study it more and then get back to me and talk it out.

If you want to understand me, you're welcome to ask (and no, there is no contradictions or conflicts). IF you wish to pray for a person you refuse to understand, you of course can do that too.

I understand that you're in denial of the beliefs of the Mormon church and I applaud you for that. I am glad that you can agree with me that God is eternal and there are no other gods. That is incredibly hopeful. Unfortunately for your church, but fortunately for you, you have departed from the orthodoxy of your church. I am not sure why you are here trying to defend the church when you don't even believe what they believe.

 

[Rescued One]

Pheobe Anne, which prophet are they to follow?

The current one and the teachings of previous ones with the exception of teachings they've concluded were wrong. They must believe though that all of their prophets were called of God.

The children's song Follow the Prophet:


Lyrics

1. 1. Adam was a prophet, first one that we know.
   In a place called Eden, he helped things to grow.
   Adam served the Lord by following his ways.
   We are his descendants in the latter days.
2. 2. Enoch was a prophet; he taught what was good.
   People in his city did just what they should.
   When they were so righteous that there was no sin,
   Heav'nly Father took them up to live with him.
3. 3. Noah was a prophet called to preach the word,
   Tried to cry repentance, but nobody heard.
   They were busy sinning-Noah preached in vain.
   They wished they had listened when they saw the rain.
4. 4. Abraham the prophet prayed to have a son,
   So the Lord sent Isaac as the chosen one.
   Isaac begat Jacob, known as Israel;
   Jacob's sons were twelve tribes, so the Bible tells.
5. 5. Moses was a prophet sent to Israel.
   He would lead them to the promised land to dwell.
   They were slow to follow, or so it appears.
   They were in the wilderness for forty years.
6. 6. Samuel was a prophet chosen as a boy.
   Hannah promised God her son would serve with joy.
   In the tabernacle, Samuel heard his name;
   He was called by God and answered, "Here I am!"
7. 7. Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away,
   But he later learned to listen and obey.
   When we really try, the Lord won't let us fail:
   That's what Jonah learned deep down inside the whale.
8. 8. Daniel was a prophet. He refused to sin;
   So the king threw Daniel in the lion's den.
   Angels calmed the lions, and the king soon saw
   Daniel's pow'r was great, for he obeyed God's law.
9. 9. Now we have a world where people are confused.
   If you don't believe it, go and watch the news.
   We can get direction all along our way,
   If we heed the prophets-follow what they say.
10. Chorus
    Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
    Follow the prophet; don't go astray.
    Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
11. Follow the prophet; he knows the way.
12. Words and music: Duane E. Hiatt, b. 1937. (c) 1989 IRI

Follow the Prophet

At home, I taught my children to sing Jesus Loves Me.

 

[Jane_Doe]

When a prophet is teaching others about God, it is doctrine.

That's Catholic theology, not LDS. Here's a source explaining actual LDS theology: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

I understand that you're in denial of the beliefs of the Mormon church and I applaud you for that. I am glad that you can agree with me that God is eternal and there are no other gods. That is incredibly hopeful. Unfortunately for your church, but fortunately for you, you have departed from the orthodoxy of your church. I am not sure why you are here trying to defend the church when you don't even believe what they believe.

*Jane bangs her head against the table in frustration of being totally ignored*

 

[Rescued One]

Here's a Mormon hymn about Joseph Smith:

Praise to the Man

1. 1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
   Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
   Blessed to open the last dispensation,
   Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.
2. (Chorus]
   Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
   Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
   Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
   Death cannot conquer the hero again.
3. 2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
   Honored and blest be his ever great name!
   Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
   Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.
4. 3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
   Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
   Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
   Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
5. 4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
   Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
   Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
   Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.
6. Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872
   Music: Scottish folk song

Praise to the Man

 

[thesunisout]

That's Catholic theology, not LDS. Here's a source explaining actual LDS theology: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

No, it's actually Mormon theology:

Gospel Principles Chapter 9: Prophets of God

"How can we sustain the prophet? We should pray for him. His burdens are heavy, and he needs to be strengthened by the prayers of the Saints.

We should study his words. We can listen to his conference addresses. We can also subscribe to the Ensign or Liahona so we can read his conference addresses and other messages he gives.

We should follow his inspired teachings completely. We should not choose to follow part of his inspired counsel and discard that which is unpleasant or difficult. The Lord commanded us to follow the inspired teachings of His prophet:

“Thou shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet’s] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).

The Lord will never allow the President of the Church to lead us astray."

So, Jane, why are you discarding the inspired teachings of Joseph Smith in defiance of the teachings of your church?

 

[Rescued One]

From the 1984 Priesthood Manual:

1 God Was Once a Man
As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth”
(Teachings, pp. 345-46; italics in original).

President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: “It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with” (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151-152

 

[withwonderingawe]

Why would a man from another planet choose to live here ? too crowded there ?

that's funny and I'm Mormon