LDS God pre-existed the Universe

[PeaceJoyLove]

Actual LDS doctrine: A person *should* (not must) follow inspired teaching from the Lord. This is very different than what are saying above.

Again, talking about inspired teaching from the Lord. Not everything the man says.

No, I did not say it was false. I said it was not doctrine and a person is free to believe/disbelieve/whatever. Please do not misconstrue my words.

Post # 5, Jane Doe verbatim, "This is a false statement" in response to the OP. Yes you did say it was false, Jane.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Post # 5, Jane Doe verbatim, "This is a false statement" in response to the OP. Yes you did say it was false, Jane.

"This" = YOUR statement that I quoted and said "this statement". I was not referring to anyone else's words.

Please quite trying to twist my words.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Do Mormons believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit? Or do they believe it was a natural, physical conception by an exalted, resurrected god-man, Elohim. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547) Do Mormons believe Jesus had to be married as it is one of the requirements to achieving Godhood? Or, how about the three gods taught about in Mormon Temple, Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael/Adam with no Holy Ghost? That Adam is the Father God (being the father of Jesus Christ)? D & C 27:11 even calls Adam the 'ancient of days'.

These things are all contrary to The Holy Bible. (John 4:22,24)

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Post #5 was not addressed to me. It was addressing thesunisout and his OP! I am not twisting your words, Jane. The very first sentence you use after thesunisout's quote - "This is a false statement." There it is, Post #5 in screenshot for all to see what you wrote and to whom that reply was addressed. It was not to me. Sorry for the confusion there seems to be.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Standing on the The Holy Bible and what is between its covers has stood the test of time. It has not morphed and changed. God's word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Unchanging and it will not return void to that which HE has sent it. There is ONE true God and no other. We are called to become holy, like God...but never be God. We can become a son/daughter of the Almighty God through His son, Jesus Christ by walking in HIS footsteps and obeying HIS sayings. Jesus Christ is The only WAY to gain entrance into The Kingdom of Heaven.

We know we have Jesus Christ when we obey HIS sayings by the grace of God. HIS spirit indwells our being causing us to walk in His ways. No special underwear required, but clean hands and a pure heart.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do Mormons believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit? Or do they believe it was a natural, physical conception by an exalted, resurrected god-man, Elohim. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547) Do Mormons believe Jesus had to be married as it is one of the requirements to achieving Godhood? Or, how about the three gods taught about in Mormon Temple, Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael/Adam with no Holy Ghost? That Adam is the Father God (being the father of Jesus Christ)? D & C 27:11 even calls Adam the 'ancient of days'.

These things are all contrary to The Holy Bible. (John 4:22,24)

I notice how you're witching topics a lot here. For the sake of brevity, I'll just go through and copy the statements that are actual doctrinal statements without any spinning or half-truthing involved:

Mormons believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit

 

[Jane_Doe]

View attachment 196836

Post #5 was not addressed to me. It was addressing thesunisout and his OP!

I am not twisting your words, Jane. The very first sentence you use after thesunisout's quote - "This is a false statement." There it is, Post #5 in screenshot for all to see what you wrote and to whom that reply was addressed. It was not to me. Sorry for the confusion there seems to be.

My apologies, I got my people mixed up late last night. I had already specifically told you that it was Thesunisout's statement that was false back in post 134:

Thesunisout's statement was false. That's the statement I quoted and said "this is false". Again, for details see post #5.

Again, I do apologize for the person mix-up late last night- that was my mistake. But I am also getting really tired of having my responses ignored and having to constantly repeat myself.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm not saying every word that comes out of his mouth, but when he is teaching about God. This is what Joseph Smith said in his sermon:

"I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority."

He was speaking with authority. Here is another quote from the same sermon:

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

He said it the first principle of the gospel to understand this truth.

According to Joseph Smith himself, this is inspired teaching from God.

This should be a big red flag to every lds. Smith himself sets himself up to show he is a false prophet.

"...all persecutions against me ought to cease." They didn't, even up to the day he died.

"You will then know that I am His servant..." Since the persecutions did not cease, then, by his own words, he is not a servant of God.

Another big red flag for the lds religion is Joseph Smith apparently believed he was God's mouthpiece when speaking these words (same with Brigham Young in his sermons), but yet the lds church is unwilling to "sustain their prophet" by "voting" it as scripture. I wonder why? Perhaps the prophet isn't really a prophet?

Which brings up another red flag - having the congregation "vote" on whether a prophet's words are scripture or not. Never happened in the OT prophets. In the NT, scripture was compared with scripture to validate its consistency.

Too many red flags!

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

My apologies, I got my people mixed up late last night. I had already specifically told you that it was Thesunisout's statement that was false back in post 134:

Again, I do apologize for the person mix-up late last night- that was my mistake. But I am also getting really tired of having my responses ignored and having to constantly repeat myself.

Your responses are not being ignored. It is when you deny something that is clearly stated in LDS D & C, saying it is falsehood, or not to be observed. Then, you say the D & C is something you must follow, yet when quotes directly from that book/document are made , you still come back saying you can accept or reject your prophets' teachings.

Sorry if I seem confused, but it seems contradictory to me what you are saying and what your D & C states.

Like here regarding your prophets and that members are to heed all his words and commandments...receive those words.



Doctrines and Covenants

Section 21
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Fayette, New York, April 6, 1830. This revelation was given at the organization of the Church, on the date named, in the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. Six men, who had previously been baptized, participated. By unanimous vote these persons expressed their desire and determination to organize, according to the commandment of God (see section 20). They also voted to accept and sustain Joseph Smith Jr. and Oliver Cowdery as the presiding officers of the Church. With the laying on of hands, Joseph then ordained Oliver an elder of the Church, and Oliver similarly ordained Joseph. After administration of the sacrament, Joseph and Oliver laid hands upon the participants individually for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost and for the confirmation of each as a member of the Church.
1–3, Joseph Smith is called to be a seer, translator, prophet, apostle, and elder; 4–8, His word will guide the cause of Zion; 9–12, The Saints will believe his words as he speaks by the Comforter.


4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The you quoted from does not say anything about such a distinguish based on subject matter as you are claiming. Rather it specifically says *inspired*.

For all your goingson about something not be "doctrine", you cannot deny that the lds church teaches what has been posted on here, as it does appear on the lds.org website and/or in official lds teaching manuals and has been documented as such.

The elephant in the room, Jane_Doe, is does the lds church teach false doctrine? You're saying it's not doctrine, yet the lds teach it, so how do you reconcile that?

May I remind you that not all that is considered "doctrine" is found in your 4 standard works. A "heavenly mother" is not found in them, yet, according to the lds.org website (bold for emphasis mine):

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints.

Mother in Heaven

If you are truly seeking the truth as you have stated in other posts, you will not find it in the lds organization.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Your responses are not being ignored.

Then why do you keep repeating the same questions over and over again that I just answered. For example, post 134 and 182?

It is when you deny something that is clearly stated in LDS D & C, saying it is falsehood, or not to be observed. Then, you say the D & C is something you must follow, yet when quotes directly from that book/document are made , you still come back saying you can accept or reject your prophets' teachings.

Sorry if I seem confused, but it seems contradictory to me what you are saying and what your D & C states.

Like here regarding your prophets and that members are to heed all his words and commandments...receive those words.

Doctrines and Covenants

Section 21
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Fayette, New York, April 6, 1830. This revelation was given at the organization of the Church, on the date named, in the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. Six men, who had previously been baptized, participated. By unanimous vote these persons expressed their desire and determination to organize, according to the commandment of God (see section 20). They also voted to accept and sustain Joseph Smith Jr. and Oliver Cowdery as the presiding officers of the Church. With the laying on of hands, Joseph then ordained Oliver an elder of the Church, and Oliver similarly ordained Joseph. After administration of the sacrament, Joseph and Oliver laid hands upon the participants individually for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost and for the confirmation of each as a member of the Church.
1–3, Joseph Smith is called to be a seer, translator, prophet, apostle, and elder; 4–8, His word will guide the cause of Zion; 9–12, The Saints will believe his words as he speaks by the Comforter.


4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

I already answered this exact question from this exact quote, as has WithWonderingAwe. See posts 166, 172, 142, etc.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

My apologies, I got my people mixed up late last night. I had already specifically told you that it was Thesunisout's statement that was false back in post 134:

Again, I do apologize for the person mix-up late last night- that was my mistake. But I am also getting really tired of having my responses ignored and having to constantly repeat myself.

Confusion, I'll say!! Your prophets (founding fathers words, even) are taught within the LDS and contained on their website. Verbatim quotations to these teachings with bibliography are provided. Then you make a statement addressing those quotations "That is a falsehood." So, in essence, are you saying that LDS teachings are falsehoods? I believe they are, too.

Why would these things be taught as stated and linked to on the LDS website if they be falsehoods? Why would anyone want to sit under teachers of falsehoods?

The prophets of the Old Testament are tried, tested and true. Our blessed Jesus Himself said that not jot or tittle (smallest letter or stroke of the pen) will pass from the Law until all things are fulfilled. HE was speaking to the written scriptures that He grew up learning...and teaching.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Confusion, I'll say!! Your prophets (founding fathers words, even) are taught within the LDS

Again: Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

Please actually read this: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

contained on their website.

You can also download coloring pages from the website. Doesn't make them doctrine either.

Verbatim quotations to these teachings with bibliography are provided. Then you make a statement addressing those quotations "That is a falsehood." So, in essence, are you saying that LDS teachings are falsehoods?

I quoted a poster on here, a specific sentence, and said that this sentence said by the poster on here was false. I did NOT say anything about any LDS quote being false.

This is now the FIFTH time I have restated this, only to have the exact same question repeated at me. I'm sorry: but I am feeling completely and utterly ignored, and am growing very impatient here.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again: Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

Please actually read this: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

You can also download coloring pages from the website. Doesn't make them doctrine either.

I quoted a poster on here, a specific sentence, and said that this sentence said by the poster on here was false. I did NOT say anything about any LDS quote being false.

This is now the FIFTH time I have restated this, only to have the exact same question repeated at me. I'm sorry: but I am feeling completely and utterly ignored, and am growing very impatient here.

PeaceJoyLove, you said you are listening. I would really like to believe you in this, but am admittedly really struggling with it. Could you please give me some indication that you are doing as you say?

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

The plurality of God teaching, you say is false. And here it says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are now gods...by exaltation. Totally contrary to The Holy Bible.

D & C 132:37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

Teachings of The Presidents, p. 346 "Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves. " With a capital "G" no less.

"Every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions" (TPJS, p. 374)

From Brigham Young University The Encyclopedia of Mormonism "Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man..."

I will stick to The Holy Bible and the revelation of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit...according to that Book. Its promise are true to those who have faith, truly trusting in the One and only Almighty God, unchanging...the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The only thing that changes...those who have genuine faith are given the power and grace by the Holy Spirit to be overcomers in the ways of Jesus. Amen.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The plurality of God teaching, you say is false.

NO!!!!!!!

You are NOT listening at all!!!

For the SIXTH time: I quoted a poster on here, a specific sentence, and said that this sentence said by the poster on here was false. I did NOT say anything about any LDS quote being false.

Please quit trying to put words in my mouth and actually treat me as a person.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

NO!!!!!!!

You are NOT listening at all!!!

For the SIXTH time: I quoted a poster on here, a specific sentence, and said that this sentence said by the poster on here was false. I did NOT say anything about any LDS quote being false.

Please quit trying to put words in my mouth and actually treat me as a person.

Jane, I have quoted your answer even took a screen shot where the OP quoted one of your prophets (verbatim)or teachers proclamations. You said it was falsehood. Not speculation or whatever. Then, to the post on here speaking to the plurality of Gods, and you made the statement something like, no we don't believe that, there is only ONE God. I am not going searching AGAIN. And yet when much LDS scriptures and teachers have taught the plurality...

You seem to be ignoring or not comprehending the things myself and others have presented and questioned that are literally called "teachings" by LDS. I get that you say you are free to accept or reject those things. Quotes given from the very founding fathers of LDS, you have called falsehood, then said well they are not actually doctrine, so take it or leave it. SEE, I have been listening. You have called these quotes both falsehood and then also "take it or leave stuff." And yet, these things are taught by LDS. Get what we are trying to convey?

That is where the confusion is arising and you think we are not listening and we see it the other way around, or even that you are skirting the LDS teachings we have quoted. Whether they are considered doctrine, speculation or whatever you choose to call them matters not. They ARE teachings. Plain and simple. When you state it is a take or leave type of thing, then I guess many LDS may think it is truth and some think it is falsehood. I guess we find it difficult to understand how LDS prophets are held in such high esteem, and on the other hand their teachings and such are called falsehood. No need to try and explain any further, I've heard enough and it just doesn't add up to ONE God of TRUTH.

We don't need 14 books and church presidents to tell us anything. All we need is our Holy Bible, the faith to seek HIM and the Spirit of Christ. HE leads us into HIS truth that can be trusted and tested to scripture. HE will not lead astray... if we have genuine faith and walk in HIS Way. The only WAY according to The Bible. And HE will lead us into all Truth. The Gospel of Jesus Christ contained within that Book is not so complicated, just obey the sayings of Jesus Christ to obtain all the promises of God.

I found it to all be TRUE. And by the grace of God HE has made it real as HIS WORD has brought me New LIFE in HIM. I have no doubt or shadow of turning as I Trust totally and utterly in God Almighty. There is nothing good in me but HIM.

James 3:17

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane, I have quoted your answer even took a screen shot where the OP quoted one of your prophets (verbatim)or teachers proclamations. You said it was falsehood.

No, you did not.

The truth: you took a screenshot of me stating the thesunisout's statement I quoted was false. I did not quote any other statement nor say any other statement was false. I have now stated this SEVEN times.

Please acknowledge this fact.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, you did not.

The truth: you took a screenshot of me stating the thesunisout's statement I quoted was false. I did not quote any other statement nor say any other statement was false. I have now stated this SEVEN times.

Please acknowledge this fact.

Will acknowledge that the lds church teaches doctrine that is not found in your 4 standard books (i.e., heavenly mother)?

If you adhere to the stance that the 4 standard works are the only doctrine, will you also acknowledge that the lds church teaches non-doctrinal topics and is therefore teaching false doctrine?

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

No, you did not.

The truth: you took a screenshot of me stating the thesunisout's statement I quoted was false. I did not quote any other statement nor say any other statement was false. I have now stated this SEVEN times.

Please acknowledge this fact.

Jane. The opening post as stated was a verbatim quote of a LDS prophet or teacher. See post #184

Did you read post 197. I have tried to explain the reason for the confusion. We non-LDS see things on LDS site and writings that are noted as teachings. That means something, obviously, different to us than to you. You take the stand that these 'teachings' are not doctrines and you can take them or leave them.

When I have quoted from the D & C where it state that members "must heed" the prophets...and you have said that D & C is doctrine. Then you say that prophets sayings and teachings are take it or leave kind of things. (As many LDS prophet quotes have been shared) So, yes it is all very confusing. D & C says something that you say you do not have to do...because it is speculation. The D & C seems to contradict other things within the dynamics of how a LDS practices their religion...like taking or leaving what a prophet speaks while D & C states "must heed."

For each quote that has been given from various LDS writings, whatever the source, you answer has been take it or leave and or falsehood...even when it has been verbatim from prophet.

They are all here on the thread. I'm done this dance. I have listened intently to what you wrote and have grown weary of the contradictions (as noted in this very post.) Each of the other posts have addressed various quotes from D & C supporting the statements made by me (and others) and you still come back with "but that is not doctrine" or some other dismissive answer.

So, I'm sorry. I have been listening, but just cannot follow your answers that seem contrary to D & C quotes. And even others who have brought quotes of teachings...you dismissed when I perceived D & C saying otherwise. And you said the D & C was doctrine to follow. So, yes I am happily confused. I don't mind you leaving me in this condition at all.

Have a good day.