God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

Cribstyl · Feb 13, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
To be honest I dont know and actually I cant really say that Mary was just the host, that is the first thing that seems plausible...

do you think part of Jesus' genes came from Mary?

I say all
The fact that God told Satan that the seed of woman would bruise his head, established that Jesus would be the womans seed.

Also....Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

JohnMarsten · Feb 13, 2012

Cribstyl said:
I say all
The fact that God told Satan that the seed of woman would bruise his head, established that Jesus would be the womans seed.

Also....Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Ok, maybe I was mistaken then...

Sophia7 · Feb 13, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
To be honest I dont know and actually I cant really say that Mary was just the host, that is the first thing that seems plausible...

do you think part of Jesus' genes came from Mary?

Yes, I do.

Sophia7 · Feb 13, 2012

Stryder06 said:
The same place Adam's human nature came from

That doesn't fit with the Bible. Jesus wasn't created the same way Adam was; He was conceived in Mary's womb:

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgins name was Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you. 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. 34 Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I am a virgin? 35 The angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said, Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her.

Also, God foretold in Genesis 3 that the woman's seed (Jesus) would bruise the serpent's head:

Genesis 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent,
Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.

He couldn't be the woman's seed if He were not her genetic offspring.

Stryder06 · Feb 14, 2012

Sophia7 said:
That doesn't fit with the Bible. Jesus wasn't created the same way Adam was; He was conceived in Mary's womb:

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgins name was Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you. 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. 34 Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I am a virgin? 35 The angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said, Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her.

Doesn't the verse you just quoted say that the Power of the Holy Spirit would accomplish this thing? It fit's with the bible perfectly considering that Jesus was called the second Adam by Paul.

Also, God foretold in Genesis 3 that the woman's seed (Jesus) would bruise the serpent's head:

Genesis 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent,
Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.

He couldn't be the woman's seed if He were not her genetic offspring.

Mary gave birth to Jesus, thus He was her seed. He developed inside of her. I'm sorry, but twice, when it came to Mary, from what we see during His ministry, Jesus gave her no special recognition. At the marriage feast, He called her "woman". And when the people told Him his mother and brothers were looking for Him, He said "Who is my mother...?"

Mary being host to Jesus is no different than a woman receiving in vitro, IMO.

JohnMarsten · Feb 14, 2012

I guess this is again a subject with many different opinions, difinitely not a salvational issue and no certainty as to which is could be the right answer...

Personally it always seemed right to me that Mary is the mere host...

Stryder06 · Feb 14, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
I guess this is again a subject with many different opinions, difinitely not a salvational issue and no certainty as to which is could be the right answer...

Personally it always seemed right to me that Mary is the mere host...

Agreed..

I would say however, that depending on who you're talking to, this could become a salvational issue.

JohnMarsten · Feb 14, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Agreed..

I would say however, that depending on who you're talking to, this could become a salvational issue.

sustained...

Sophia7 · Feb 14, 2012

Stryder, are you aware that the traditional Adventist view of EGW is that Jesus took on the inherited characteristics of His human ancestors? He couldn't have "accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity" if He were not the genetic offspring of Mary, and a descendant of Adam and Eve:

The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden “the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.” Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour’s sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.6}

Do you agree with EGW?

Stryder06 said:
Doesn't the verse you just quoted say that the Power of the Holy Spirit would accomplish this thing? It fit's with the bible perfectly considering that Jesus was called the second Adam by Paul.

The Holy Spirit accomplished the conception. Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb, not just implanted there. He was "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4).

What Paul actually says is that Adam was "a type of Him who was to come":

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He also says this:

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

And this:

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Jesus wasn't created in the same way that Adam was, without a human mother, and the point of the "second Adam" idea is that one man, Adam, brought sin and death to humanity, and the second man, Jesus, brought grace and righteousness to save us from our sins and to give us eternal life.

Styrder06 said:
Mary gave birth to Jesus, thus He was her seed. He developed inside of her. I'm sorry, but twice, when it came to Mary, from what we see during His ministry, Jesus gave her no special recognition. At the marriage feast, He called her "woman". And when the people told Him his mother and brothers were looking for Him, He said "Who is my mother...?"

Mary being host to Jesus is no different than a woman receiving in vitro, IMO.

Simply carrying Him in her womb and giving birth to Him wouldn't make Him her seed. It is not veneration of Mary to recognize that she was actually Jesus' mother, not just a surrogate, adoptive parent.

Sophia7 · Feb 14, 2012

Cribstyl said:
Also....Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Stryder06 · Feb 15, 2012

Sophia7 said:
Stryder, are you aware that the traditional Adventist view of EGW is that Jesus took on the inherited characteristics of His human ancestors? He couldn't have "accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity" if He were not the genetic offspring of Mary, and a descendant of Adam and Eve:

The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God. Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviours sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take mans nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.6}
Do you agree with EGW?

I don't see anything in what you quoted that goes against what I believe.

The Holy Spirit accomplished the conception. Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb, not just implanted there. He was "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4).

What Paul actually says is that Adam was "a type of Him who was to come":

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
He also says this:

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
And this:

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Jesus wasn't created in the same way that Adam was, without a human mother, and the point of the "second Adam" idea is that one man, Adam, brought sin and death to humanity, and the second man, Jesus, brought grace and righteousness to save us from our sins and to give us eternal life.

I agree 100% with what Paul said. Doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned. Not saying that it's impossible for Jesus to have received His physical makeup from Mary's genes. I just don't think that's what happened considering that we are, from Head to toe Sinful. Of course our sinful nature might not be a genetic condition.

Simply carrying Him in her womb and giving birth to Him wouldn't make Him her seed. It is not veneration of Mary to recognize that she was actually Jesus' mother, not just a surrogate, adoptive parent.

My issue has nothing to do with veneration, and everything to do with reconciling the sinful nature that we have. In other words, if our genetic makeup itself is polluted with sin, then I don't believe Jesus would have gotten any part of that form Mary. If it's not however, then there's no issue.

Like John said, it's not a salvational issue. So I'll leave it at that.

Cribstyl · Feb 15, 2012

It's sad when commentary tends to undermind scriptures.

Rom 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Mary was of the seed of David, Jesus was the seed of Mary.

Stryder06 · Feb 15, 2012

Cribstyl said:
It's sad when commentary tends to undermind scriptures.

Rom 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Mary was of the seed of David, Jesus was the seed of Mary.

I thought Joseph was the seed of David.

JohnMarsten · Feb 15, 2012

Stryder06 said:
I thought Joseph was the seed of David.

it is not entirely clear

fact is that we have two versions of Jesus ancestory...

if He was indeed the seed of David through Joseph, the Mary/host theory would become even more substantial...

Stryder06 · Feb 15, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
it is not entirely clear

fact is that we have two versions of Jesus ancestory...

if He was indeed the seed of David through Joseph, the Mary/host theory would become even more substantial...

I was under the impression that lineage was counted through the father, not the mother. Considering that Joseph took Mary to His hometown for the census, and that town was Bethlehem, it would seem that the lineage is coming from Joseph, not Mary.

Laureate · Feb 15, 2012

The Holy Spirit did reveal unto me an example of (at least one way) how one such as our Creator (who knows all things) could create a situation where he places a set of options before an individual, and though our Maker knows what is behind every option/door, he allows us to choose which one; so on one hand He does not know in (this type of situation) which option/door an individual will choose until they make that decision, nevertheless it makes no difference which door one chooses, when He already knows the out come of every decision made, hence he still knows all things: It was further explained that today we may have many options, yet tomorrow we may only have one or two; and that all such options are routes to fulfilling his will; the question then (in these situations) is not if we will fulfill his will, but how? Then there are the situations that do not give an individual any choice, as to how Aloah's will shall be achieved; i.e., in a case of predestination it is likely that one would have little to no options at all.

JohnMarsten · Feb 15, 2012

Stryder06 said:
I was under the impression that lineage was counted through the father, not the mother. Considering that Joseph took Mary to His hometown for the census, and that town was Bethlehem, it would seem that the lineage is coming from Joseph, not Mary.

so why are there two different bloodlines in the bible...???

Laureate · Feb 15, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
so why are there two different bloodlines in the bible...???

EPHRAIM & JUDAH? and they shall no longer be two nations, Ezekiel 37:22

Stryder06 · Feb 15, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
so why are there two different bloodlines in the bible...???

Got me. In both cases though, the line of David is associated with Joseph, not Mary.

JohnMarsten · Feb 15, 2012

Laureate said:
EPHRAIM & JUDAH? and they shall no longer be two nations, Ezekiel 37:22

cant follow you in regard to the given context

God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

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