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God is big

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by primarymay, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Why should I take this seriously, I don't have to follow something I don't believe in.

    But you do.
     
  2. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    He he he, yes.

    But remember, the bigger the stuffed bear, the greater the love.
     
  3. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    I'm hard pressed where it might say that God is in fact big, as in size.
     
  4. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    The problem with God being unmeasurable, is that there would be no end to him. Therefore creating a paradoxical problem, he'd be greater than the parts of himself.
     
  5. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Always bigger.
     
  6. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hello, for this line of reasoning to be valid, I mean logically valid, you need a working definition of your subject and a different set of criteria, or at the least different terminology. Speaking about the ´bigness´of God or of his love being ´unmeasurable´ or of his ´parts´ is speaking figuratively, that´s your starting point. If you take those terms to mean that God has actual physical size, or that there is some sort of unit for measuring the volume of God´s love, or that his love is a ´part´of him in the sense of a physical part like an elbow or a finger, then your working definitions of God, and of love, don´t describe the God of the bible or give a satisfying definition of love. First of all, God is spirit - we don´t really have an adequate way of describing what that means, well not one I´m aware of in any case. In answer to Moses saying ´who shall I say sent me´God says ´I am´. I take this to mean an absolute expression of existence, absolute in the sense of being beyond terms of reference like size, time etc. He exists in a way that we cannot understand because he is outside of all of our terms of reference, we say that he is spirit but what do we mean by that? He is not bound by time, or physical size, or any other dimensions. There are no limits to his existential nature - he is a full and complete expression of who he is, and his existence is absolute. Secondly, God´s love is not part of him, it is an expression of who he is, in the same absolute way that he simply ´is´. We can talk about God´s love or God´s justice as being ´parts of him´, but that´s figurative language, it´s not using language used to describe something physical. He´s not made of lego, with parts than can be taken off and measured. Lastly you need to define what you mean by ´measure´. Love does not have physical dimensions. For instance, I can say ´I love my dog´, and, if you were curious, you might ask ok how much do you love your dog - so how would you measure that? Well, you can´t, because there isn´t a unit of measure for love, because love does not have properties that make it measurable, in the sense of defining its size or volume. You can however find out what the limits of that love are by testing the expression of it, you could ask me for example would you do this or that for your dog and so on, to get some idea of how far my willingness to do things for my dog can give you an impression of how my love for my dog is expressed and so what are the limits of my love for my dog. You could then say, if you wanted to use archaic language, that you ´have the measure´ of my love for my dog, i.e. that you have tested it and have some notion of how it is expressed, but you can´t really say in modern English that you have measured it if you want to be accurate about what you are saying. So, again if you want to pursue this argument you need to rethink your understanding of your subject and the terminology you´re using.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  7. Silmarien

    Silmarien Vaguely Neoplatonic

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    You might want to look into philosophical concepts like divine simplicity. Especially in the Neoplatonic tradition (which informed a lot of early Christian theology), monotheism was embraced because they didn't believe that the ultimate nature of reality could be a composite of parts. I can't find anything specifically on that issue, but you might find this more general article useful: Why Is There Anything At All? It’s Simple | Edward Feser
     
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  8. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Work it out:

    If this god actually exists, then you'd be stepping into more than one paradox, so how can he exist?

    How I tell you, how.
     
  9. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Haha ok. I’ll take the bait, gimme a paradox (a real one)

    Cheers
     
  10. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    And here's another thing if Jesus was fully god and fully man, but god is infinite, how could his wholeness fit into the body and brain of a man.
     
  11. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    I just did, look up, hells another paradox.
     
  12. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hello again. Do you acknowledge that things spiritual and things physical both exist, and are fundamentally different in nature? Or do you have a different view, and if so, what is it?
     
  13. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not really. There’s a difference between a paradox and ‘I don’t have a full understanding of what this means’. Without understanding that difference then this post is doomed to go round in circles. Unmeasurable, eternal circles
     
  14. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    I can say physical things exist, but I can't say spiritual things do. For argument sake I gave that reply, but there are so many spiritual beliefs. Who would know what's true or false, if you can't test spiritual subjects then your left with opinion only.
     
  15. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I wouldn't entirely disagree with you there. At the end of the day, whatever a person chooses to believe, they've put their faith in something, whether that's an intellectual construct or whatever else it might be. The notion of absolute proof, proof in the sense of something demonstrable to our senses, for any answer to life, the universe and everything, is a pretty dodgy one. But, I do think it is important to be careful just how you form opinions, and in my experience a process of examining any question from different perspectives, rather than just picking one and sticking with it no matter what, can eventually lead you to things that are true, and that is where God is found.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  16. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    Sure god can be found, if there is a creator, it can be found. But then I disagree with myself, it might not be found.

    But it just so happens Christians have found god, and he is Jesus, what are the chances that the creator of this universe popped in to say hello to some monkey's. He also decided to come as a monkey, and die for all the monkeys out there.
     
  17. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, it’s all a bit mad. Like Paul said, the gospel is ‘foolishness’ to the Greeks (and maybe by extension all gentiles), and he was a ‘fool’ for Christ. The notion that there is a God who cares so intensely about us seems crazy, it’s so far outside of the everyday experience of life. But, it’s a good question to start with - why? (Btw current evolution theory doesn’t teach that we are a type of monkey but that humans and apes have a common ancestor, a kind of proto-human/monkey creature)
     
  18. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    I'm sure god cares, but not to the degree that it needs to sacrifice itself for monkey half breeds.

    I'm sure here god can reconcile his creation without a drop of blood.

    Now that seems foolishness too, so am I correct?
     
  19. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Haha my friend I think that you need to go back to some first principles with your arguments. The gospel isn’t true because it seems foolish, you won’t get yourself anywhere just plucking things out of the air like that. I’d suggest establishing in your own mind some thing or things you are sure of and work outwards from there.
     
  20. primarymay

    primarymay Member

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    I'm sure that the years I was a Christian failed me. That my experience as a Christian was such a maddening one, I choose the right to dismiss it now.
     
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