God does not change

[brinny]

To a point... remember, God had redemption on His mind before He even made Adam (consider post 53 above) so all He did was in progression to the day Yeshua would come. It was prophesied and waited on... looked forward to. So yes it shifted the course of events (those from the nations now being called) but that isn't God changing, that is the next phase of His plan to redeem mankind.

Exactly.

 

[Tree of Life]

To a point... remember, God had redemption on His mind before He even made Adam (consider post 53 above) so all He did was in progression to the day Yeshua would come. It was prophesied and waited on... looked forward to. So yes it shifted the course of events (those from the nations now being called) but that isn't God changing, that is the next phase of His plan to redeem mankind.

I just think it's exegetically irresponsible to dismiss any differences between the Old Covenant era and the New Covenant era by saying the truism: "God doesn't change".

 

[Ken Rank]

I just think it's exegetically irresponsible to dismiss any differences between the Old Covenant era and the New Covenant era by saying the truism: "God doesn't change".

We just see it differently. I don't see a "new covenant" like you do, I see that which God called the "everlasting covenant" being renewed through Yeshua's blood. I see the text of the covenant being moved from stone to the mind and heart by God Himself. But the core of the covenant, Him being our God and we being His people...and the text (the 10 Words - Deuteronomy 4:13) is the same. And I do have my reasons for renewed if you care to hear. Otherwise, I don't care if we walk away not agreeing here. This isn't what many would call a salvation issue.

 

[Tree of Life]

We just see it differently. I don't see a "new covenant" like you do, I see that which God called the "everlasting covenant" being renewed through Yeshua's blood. I see the text of the covenant being moved from stone to the mind and heart by God Himself. But the core of the covenant, Him being our God and we being His people...and the text (the 10 Words - Deuteronomy 4:13) is the same. And I do have my reasons for renewed if you care to hear. Otherwise, I don't care if we walk away not agreeing here. This isn't what many would call a salvation issue.

I'm just trying to use the language of Scripture. Do you deny that Scripture talks about a New Covenant?

 

[brinny]

I'm just trying to use the language of Scripture. Do you deny that Scripture talks about a New Covenant?

Scripture also declares that God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and always and forever. That's why He is called our Anchor.

 

[Tree of Life]

Scripture also declares that God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and always and forever. That's why He is called our Anchor.

So why don't we worship at the temple in Jerusalem anymore or celebrate Passover? Why is the Levitical priesthood now defunct? Aren't these things that the unchanging God instituted?

 

[brinny]

So why don't we worship at the temple in Jerusalem anymore or celebrate Passover? Why is the Levitical priesthood now defunct? Aren't these things that the unchanging God instituted?

As was mentioned in this thread already, from the very beginning, God had planne3d for His only begotten Son to pay the penalty for fallen man.

It never changed.

What you mentioned is what happened on the way to the plan from the gitgo, and that was for God to do as it is written in John 3:16.

God changes not.

He says so Himself.

It is written.

 

[Everybodyknows]

I just answered this for another member in my last post above, but in short, that the text of the covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13) is being moved form stone to the heart. This has been prophesied all along... it isn't something new God is doing, it is something He planned from the beginning. (See Ezekiel 11:19, Deuteronomy 30:1-6 and please read the last paragraph in my post above, #50)

Just because it's prophesied doesn't mean it's not new though. Sure it was God's plan all along, but what changes is that he brings that plan into existence in reality. Promise vs fulfillment, plan vs action. If I have drawn up some plans for my new house you don't walk past my still vacant lot and say 'there's a new house'. That plan needs to be put into action to bring forth that house into existence. Once the actual house is brought into existence then we can say 'there's a new house'. The same with God, he fulfilled his promise through Christ. Something changed for us in reality through the fulfillment of that promise. It changed from being a promise to being a reality.

If this is how you see it, that's fine. We are not at odds here... I just see a God that knew we would fall before He made us and thus made a way for us to come back to Him before He went ahead and made us. Therefore, everything He did from then on came with the plan to redeem us and it should be looked at as a single progression rather than individual ages where finally God gets it right later. I know you don't necessarily believe that but I have seen people say the most vile things about the Law until I ask them who wrote the Law. If God is the author is has to be perfect and according to His will which means we have to embrace it, not demonize it. The problem is we don't understand it... mainly because we don't understand some of Paul's methods. And that is the issue... Paul used methods and we aren't raised to even recognize that. Anyway.... I am going off on a tangent... sorry.

I don't see how his foreknowledge of his action it's relevant. He knew he would die in the cross before Adam was created, fine. That still doesn't change the fact that when the appointed time came to actuate that plan, it brought a change into existence in reality. Meaning that things were different after the action than before.

Let me ask you a few questions. What did Israel do to earn God sending a Prophet into Egypt to square off against what is really their god and eventually lead them out to safety? And while on that trek and they murmured against God and that Prophet, why did God continue leading them to safety? Why after the golden calf did God still make a covenant with these people? I will stop here because I think you know I can list off another 100 "why did God..." and because I think you know the answer. It is mercy, grace... they did NOTHING to earn being set free from Egypt and we did NOTHING to earn the right to be set free from our Egypt. How do we have more grace?

Blessings.
Ken

I don't see how earning or not earning his mercy is relevant to the topic.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

If I asked you what the difference is in the covenant, what makes it better, how would you answer?

Thanks for your in depth explanation. I agree God's character is unchanging and immutable. My answer to the question is rather more simple (I hope).

There are three types of covenant: grant, kinship and vassal (suzerainty treaty). I'd like to focus on two, the grant and vassal. A grant covenant is where one party offers safety and blessing while the other party offers their loyalty. Abraham's covenant with God was a grant covenant. The greater party being God and the lesser party being Abraham. The Mosaic covenant was not a grant covenant but was initially similar to a kinship covenant and later resembles the suzerainty treaty of the Hittites. Vassal covenants award blessings for good behaviour and curses for bad behaviour. God did not intend for this kind of vassal covenant with the Israelites. He initially offered a grant covenant but the people were afraid of coming near to God and requested a covenant similar to that of those in the Near East. As often occurs, God granted their request. Jesus came and ended the vassal covenant with His death. He then established the best covenant, the grant covenant where we offer our loyalty, and God offers blessing and safety (spiritual blessing and safety).

God doesn't change, but the covenants do, because people change.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

really means He is GOD and He NEVER changes His position of being GOD. NOT that He doesn't change His mind.

Exodus 32:14 = God changed his mind.

I love Malachi! it has a very relevant message.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Right! Some even believe He's not around anymore after the Bible was completed. Maybe He's taking a vacation on Mars.

Can't be Mars. Ever since that book Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, I can't think Mars.

lol.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God doesn't change, but the covenants do, because people change.

Yup.

God Himself calls the New Covenant better. Based on better promises.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Can't be Mars. Ever since that book Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, I can't think Mars.

lol.

LOL You are soooooooo funny, girl!

 

[DennisTate]

You see a new age... I don't, not at all... not in the language nor the continuity in Scripture from Genesis through Revelation. I can go with you on grace "expressed a new way" because, though the Tanach (OT) pointed to Yeshua's work, it was pointing... he actually came and did it. And what he did began a call into the nations that was prophesied, so a new expression? Sure... decent wording but mercy/grace in the end is still "unmerited favor." So how it was extended might have broadened beyond Judea.... but it is still unmerited favor.

Can you imagine a world where the amount of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh.....
on all humans and on all animals.......
is at a much greater level than at any time since Eden previous to the fall of Eve and Adam......?

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

Howard Storm's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Perhaps the poster was referring to how the greek word for grace charis is used in Luke 2:52; we see even Jesus grew in grace/favour. Now because of the work accomplished by Jesus, all of the covenant blessings in every covenant are available to us. The fact Jesus grew in grace shows us that grace (in this sense) is not a constant, but is something that we can grow in. I'm not sure I've heard anyone argue that God's character changes, rather that we can grow in grace, and that more grace/favour is available to us today because of what Jesus did -- He began a new covenant on our behalf -- a better covenant.

I don’t see that Jesus as God grew in grace.

Who’s favor is God seeking

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can you imagine a world where the amount of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh.....
on all humans and on all animals.......
is at a much greater level than at any time since Eden previous to the fall of Eve and Adam......?

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

Where are verses that support God gives the Holy Spirit to animals? And what would be the purpose?

Verses.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God.

You need to be careful. The Greeks (Aristotle) were convinced that the gods could not change since changing from one form to another implies that one form is better than another... which means the gods are changing from perfection to more perfection...

In modern thinking the idea that God cannot change is also contradictory to God being omnipotent. If God is omnipotent then he can change. If he can't change then he isn't omnipotent... and I think my head might explode.

So the principle that he is the same yesterday, today and forever is sound, but if yesterday God was a changing God, then he would be today and forever also.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We just see it differently. I don't see a "new covenant" like you do, I see that which God called the "everlasting covenant" being renewed through Yeshua's blood. I see the text of the covenant being moved from stone to the mind and heart by God Himself. But the core of the covenant, Him being our God and we being His people...and the text (the 10 Words - Deuteronomy 4:13) is the same. And I do have my reasons for renewed if you care to hear. Otherwise, I don't care if we walk away not agreeing here. This isn't what many would call a salvation issue.

When does God call the Old Covenant everlasting?

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm just trying to use the language of Scripture. Do you deny that Scripture talks about a New Covenant?

Look, I don't care if you don't agree with me. Yeshua was miraculously brought into this world, he lived without sin, died, and was raised after 3 days. It is through his life ALONE that the curse of sin and death that was introduced into this world by Adam is reversed. Life alone comes through Yeshua.

That, if you believe it... makes us brothers, the rest are details we can argue about, agree upon, but not divide over nor take little shots at each other like using terms like "irresponsible" because I reached a conclusion that differs from you. Do YOU have all knowledge and understanding? Are YOU 100% correct on ALL doctrinal positions? If yes.. well, you're the first one, congratulations. If no, then can't I say you are irresponsible about some of your doctrines like you did you me? My answer would be NO! because we all have error and maybe I am in error on this. But irresponsible because my conclusions differs from yours when I figure you just admitted while reading this you are not 100% accurate either???

Anyway.. to answer your question and then move on... I don't deny that the ENGLISH LANGUAGE used the word "new" as an adjective to describe the noun "covenant." However, in Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) you'll find that the word for new is chadashah. This is the verb chadash (from the root H2318) which means "to renew" being used as an adjective. This is the same word used to describe the noun "moon" (as in "new moon") but it isn't a NEW moon, it is the SAME moon that is renewing it's cycle. So, when we see "b'rit chadashah" whether it fits into your doctrinal bias or not... it is literally translated as "covenant renewed" or "renewed covenant." This remains consistent then, with the idea that when God made the covenant at Sinai He called it "everlasting" (Psalm 105:8-10).

That is the Hebrew... but what about the Greek seeing Jer. 31:31 is repeated in Hebrews 8:8? Well, it is consistent. The adjective "new" is the word kainos. We have two Greek words in play here, kainos and nehos (or neos as some prefer). Kainos means "new in regards to FRESHNESS; renew." The word nehos means, "new in regards to AGE; brand new." So, when the covenant is called kainos it is being made fresh, renewed. This is the same word used for "new heaven and earth" but God isn't deleting the old earth and starting over, He is RESTORING the one He called good to it's sinless perfect state.

So no... I don't see the covenant the way you do and you don't see it as I do I don't care. Because, again, in the end... the roots of our faith are things we agree on and that is what makes us Sons of God. Not whether or not "new" is a good translation or not.

Shalom.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

Just because it's prophesied doesn't mean it's not new though. Sure it was God's plan all along, but what changes is that he brings that plan into existence in reality. Promise vs fulfillment, plan vs action. If I have drawn up some plans for my new house you don't walk past my still vacant lot and say 'there's a new house'. That plan needs to be put into action to bring forth that house into existence. Once the actual house is brought into existence then we can say 'there's a new house'. The same with God, he fulfilled his promise through Christ. Something changed for us in reality through the fulfillment of that promise. It changed from being a promise to being a reality.


I don't see how his foreknowledge of his action it's relevant. He knew he would die in the cross before Adam was created, fine. That still doesn't change the fact that when the appointed time came to actuate that plan, it brought a change into existence in reality. Meaning that things were different after the action than before.


I don't see how earning or not earning his mercy is relevant to the topic.

But none of that means it is new to God... this was something He planned from the beginning and is simply an action in a process leading to a result He desires. It is "new" to us because we don't see through His eyes, yet.

As for "earning mercy" that is a contradiction in terms. If you "earn it" then it isn't a gift, it becomes something you work for and that negates the need for messiah's work because why die if we can work our way to God?