God does not change

[SBC]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever.

Agree.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] it is a matter of that we must learn to not think above that which is written, and except we learn this, we shall only continually be in exaggeration and over-estimation.

 

[SBC]

Actually the first promise was given to Satan, of all people!

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Satan was the first to Lie.
Satan was the first to Murder.
Satan was the first to Kill the Word of God, as the foundation of the earth was being laid.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[YouAreAwesome]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

Perhaps the poster was referring to how the greek word for grace charis is used in Luke 2:52; we see even Jesus grew in grace/favour. Now because of the work accomplished by Jesus, all of the covenant blessings in every covenant are available to us. The fact Jesus grew in grace shows us that grace (in this sense) is not a constant, but is something that we can grow in. I'm not sure I've heard anyone argue that God's character changes, rather that we can grow in grace, and that more grace/favour is available to us today because of what Jesus did -- He began a new covenant on our behalf -- a better covenant.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Respectfully, you and I have drastically different paradigms. I don't see a "new" covenant as in brand new as that is how it reads in English but NOT how it reads in Hebrew (Jer. 31:31) and Greek (Heb. 8:8).

I'm curious what you think has changed (if at all) then under the new covenant?

You see a change in the function of the Spirit and I see God using the Spirit in us for reasons He has used before... but on a smaller scale (I have a short article on this if you are interested).

Sure it's all about scale, that's kind of what I was getting at. Mercy on a larger scale = more mercy. It was all there foreshadowed in the OT. God didn't suddenly change the way he worked, he fulfilled his promise and released grace to all mankind and the spirit to all believers.

I'm interested in your article too btw.

We walk and talk as if us having the Spirit is the end all when Scripture very plainly calls it a deposit or down payment toward much more to come (see 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5).

Agree

 

[SBC]

Perhaps the poster was referring to how the greek word for grace charis is used in Luke 2:52; we see even Jesus grew in grace/favour.

Jesus came to earth without His reputation.
That doesn't mean He didn't have a reputation, but that, He came to earth, without it.
So, yes, mankind first met Jesus, without His reputation.
As Jesus' reputation was coming down from Heaven, mankind, was privy to seeing His reputation being revealed.

Phil 2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God...
[7] But made himself of no reputation...

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Mountainmanbob]

You know the verses, languages and meanings do change over time. Maybe thousand years from now it will read “God doesn’t change more than needed” and future forums activist can have a field day interpreting what that means.

The man of today whatever that day seems to be always thinks for some crazy reason that he is smarter than the men that came before him -- wrong!

It's a little too early 1:57 AM to even comment on the quote above.
Except maybe to say -- NOT.

M-Bob

 

[Ken Rank]

[for me anyway] it is a matter of that we must learn to not think above that which is written, and except we learn this, we shall only continually be in exaggeration and over-estimation.

That is one area I believe I was blessed in... but in an odd way. I didn't grow up as a Christian, I grew more agnostic... meaning, in my case, I figured there was a God but didn't care enough to bother learning of Him. It wasn't until I was 29 years old that I came in faith through messiah to God. And so because I had 29 years of virtually no religion, I had no real bias' in terms of doctrine. I was even old enough to recognize that when I read and was able to just let whatever the truth was that being presented, to be whatever it was. That doesn't mean I have everything correct today, we ALL have error... but I think I was able to have a more unbiased pair of glasses on and see some things I might not have had I been raised under a church bylaw system.

 

[DennisTate]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

On the other hand.......
G-d adapts to changing circumstances......
and we humans..... even us genetic descendants of Judah, Levi or one or more of the Lost Tribes of Israel..... we are so weakened in comparison to our ancestors........
that perhaps G-d has to give us more and more and more and more of the Holy Spirit......
just to get us to accomplish ten percent as much as one of our ancestors who was so much stronger physically.... mentally.......
and in a way.... spiritually.........

 

[Ken Rank]

Perhaps the poster was referring to how the greek word for grace charis is used in Luke 2:52; we see even Jesus grew in grace/favour. Now because of the work accomplished by Jesus, all of the covenant blessings in every covenant are available to us. The fact Jesus grew in grace shows us that grace (in this sense) is not a constant, but is something that we can grow in. I'm not sure I've heard anyone argue that God's character changes, rather that we can grow in grace, and that more grace/favour is available to us today because of what Jesus did -- He began a new covenant on our behalf -- a better covenant.

If I asked you what the difference is in the covenant, what makes it better, how would you answer? I would answer like this... (and feel free to stop for a second before reading on to develop your own answer before seeing mine)


Deut. 4:13 says the covenant (this would be Sinai) is the 10 Words, or 10 Commandments if you prefer. So that is the covenant, the text, that which Moses and the elders agreed to. The text of the covenant was then written on stone and God said in Deut. 6:6 that those words will be on your heart. But a couple of verses later (6:8) we see the people putting them on their hand and foreheads. Man was unable to keep God's instructions, the text of the covenant, on their own heart 24/7/365 and thus God also promised that He would end up putting them on our minds and hearts Himself... He would do the work. This we have verses like this...

Deut 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezek 11:19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

4 verses, please read them. God promised that He would ultimately circumcise our hearts (this is what Paul was quoting) and in Ezekiel we see a "new" spirit and also a heart of STONE (Law on stone) and then a heart of flesh (Law on the heart). Why is the covenant BETTER now? Because it isn't on stone, the text was MOVED from stone to heart by God.

We then have Jeremiah 31 (repeated in Hebrews 8) and we see "new" covenant and then the promise (again) of the law being written on the mind and heart BY GOD. Again... a promise...

When this all comes to pass through messiah, this isn't something NEW, this is something God had planned from the beginning and then included in His word as a promise of that which He would do. He doesn't change... all we see was prophesied and promised long ago and is part of the progression that led from Adam's fall to our ultimate restoration (amen).

I put the word new in the above verse in quotes.... you might be wondering why? Well, we see the word in English, "new" and think something brand new. But the underlying word in both the Ezekiel and Jeremiah passages that use "new" has chadashah where we see "new." Significance? Simply that this is the word chadash which means to renew. The root word (H2318) means "to be new; causatively to rebuild: - renew." This is the same word used for "new moon" but think, each month we are not getting a NEW moon, we are getting a renewing of the cycles of the SAME MOON. So this is the same word, being used as an adjective (which is why the form changes slightly from chadash to chadashah) to describe the noun... the word covenant. It is literally a renewed covenant which should not surprise us... God called it an "everlasting covenant" in Psalms 105:8-10. And if we are going to monkey around with the Hebrew word olam (everlasting) in that Psalm, then we open the door to doing the same thing when God calls Himself olam. The covenant made at Sinai is an everlasting covenant and it has been renewed through Yeshua's blood and the text of the covenant is being moved from stone to the heart. That is why it is better... because the instructions, how God desires for us to live, will be part of us... in us... perhaps in our DNA.

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm curious what you think has changed (if at all) then under the new covenant?

I just answered this for another member in my last post above, but in short, that the text of the covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13) is being moved form stone to the heart. This has been prophesied all along... it isn't something new God is doing, it is something He planned from the beginning. (See Ezekiel 11:19, Deuteronomy 30:1-6 and please read the last paragraph in my post above, #50)

Sure it's all about scale, that's kind of what I was getting at. Mercy on a larger scale = more mercy. It was all there foreshadowed in the OT. God didn't suddenly change the way he worked, he fulfilled his promise and released grace to all mankind and the spirit to all believers.

If this is how you see it, that's fine. We are not at odds here... I just see a God that knew we would fall before He made us and thus made a way for us to come back to Him before He went ahead and made us. Therefore, everything He did from then on came with the plan to redeem us and it should be looked at as a single progression rather than individual ages where finally God gets it right later. I know you don't necessarily believe that but I have seen people say the most vile things about the Law until I ask them who wrote the Law. If God is the author is has to be perfect and according to His will which means we have to embrace it, not demonize it. The problem is we don't understand it... mainly because we don't understand some of Paul's methods. And that is the issue... Paul used methods and we aren't raised to even recognize that. Anyway.... I am going off on a tangent... sorry.

Let me ask you a few questions. What did Israel do to earn God sending a Prophet into Egypt to square off against what is really their god and eventually lead them out to safety? And while on that trek and they murmured against God and that Prophet, why did God continue leading them to safety? Why after the golden calf did God still make a covenant with these people? I will stop here because I think you know I can list off another 100 "why did God..." and because I think you know the answer. It is mercy, grace... they did NOTHING to earn being set free from Egypt and we did NOTHING to earn the right to be set free from our Egypt. How do we have more grace?

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm interested in your article too btw.

If you are on Facebook you can read it here, otherwise, I can send it to you by PM.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

On the other hand.......
G-d adapts to changing circumstances......

Does he really, brother? In Revelation 13:8 we find that there was a "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The word for "foundation" is katabolē and literally means "throwing or laying down" but also means conception, foundation, the point in life where something is still SEED.... you get the idea. This was at or before the first "Let there be" which means in God's mind, at least, there was a sacrifice before there was even a man let alone a sin.

When we get to Genesis 1:14 now, we find that the sun, moon, and stars were placed into the skies and they were, "to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years." The word seasons, a Hebrew word I think you are familiar with Dennis, the word moedim. The word "moed" means appointed time or appointment but is the word translated as "feast." The "im" ending simply makes it plural, feasts. So the sun, moon, and stars were placed in the heavens for a number of reasons INCLUDING being markers to know when the feasts are. My point? The Feasts were designed to point to the various works of Messiah. Passover... to redeem the first born (us), Unleavened bread to show the sinless life. Shavuot (Pentecost) the giving of the Spirit and the promise to write the law on the heart rather than stone. Trumpets, the final call of assembly... the call to the bride to prepare for the bridegroom. Kippur, the removal of sin (perfection) and the coming of the bridegroom and Sukkot (Tabernacles) the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. This is what the "Feasts" all point to and God placed that which would mark those day in place before He even made Adam... obviously before Adam sinned.

My point... God KNEW we would fall and if He knew in advance that we would fall, then these "changing circumstances" you perceive were also known to Him before He made Adam and therefore are also part of His plan, somehow. Therefore, there is grace when circumstances change (i.e. we are in the nations under secular rule and can't walk fully in His instructions yet there is grace extended from Him because He knows we can't walk as even He prefers us to walk... at this time) but I am not sure I like the idea of Him adapting, brother. I think we have been and we continue to fall away (as a people, not as every individual) from Him and it is US who need to adapt and RETURN to His ways... that is what "repent" really means in Hebrew. A return, not just turning from as we have it defined within Christianity today.

 

[Dawnhammer]

The man of today whatever that day seems to be always thinks for some crazy reason that he is smarter than the men that came before him -- wrong!

How true. Your post is truly inspiring example of proving your stament of certain people not mentally or spiritually progressing anywhere despite all the knowledge, skill , experience and wisdom their contemporaries acquire.

 

[Ron Gurley]

One of the many attributes of God: immutability!

Here is "GOD" of the Bible and spirit-led writings
which refect His "meaning" and nature and SPIRITUAL essence and character and attributes.

1. Existent (Spirit Being)
2. Unified (not in different parts)
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...pure
4. Infinite (no Beginning, no End)
5. Eternal (beyond limits of time and space)
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER (immutable)
7. All Present (spiritually everywhere and available)...omnipresent
8. All Sovereign (rules over/in complete control of {as He directs all things vs. all}
9. All Knowing (Omniscience...perfect wisdom)
10.All powerful (Omnipotence...God Almighty)
11.Perfectly JUST (fairness in His JUDGMENT of ALL SPIRITS)
12.Perfectly LOVING / Merciful (God IS Love;undeserved help for the afflicted)
13.Perfectly TRUE / Truthful (always truth-telling, inerrant)
14.Perfectly FREE (from sin and unrestricted power
15.Perfectly Separate (to mark off from others by boundaries)

"He delights in unchanging love"

"..Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

...The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind...

...Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it...

(“ THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

God is not dead, asleep, or changing / changeable,

God does and has changed His METHODS / ECONOMY of relating to Man:
OT covenants ...to NT covenants

 

[Ken Rank]

One of the many attributes of God: immutability!

Here is "GOD" of the Bible and spirit-led writings
which refect His "meaning" and nature and SPIRITUAL essence and character and attributes.

1. Existent (Spirit Being)
2. Unified (not in different parts)
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...pure
4. Infinite (no Beginning, no End)
5. Eternal (beyond limits of time and space)
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER (immutable)
7. All Present (spiritually everywhere and available)...omnipresent
8. All Sovereign (rules over/in complete control of {as He directs all things vs. all}
9. All Knowing (Omniscience...perfect wisdom)
10.All powerful (Omnipotence...God Almighty)
11.Perfectly JUST (fairness in His JUDGMENT of ALL SPIRITS)
12.Perfectly LOVING / Merciful (God IS Love;undeserved help for the afflicted)
13.Perfectly TRUE / Truthful (always truth-telling, inerrant)
14.Perfectly FREE (from sin and unrestricted power
15.Perfectly Separate (to mark off from others by boundaries)

"He delights in unchanging love"

"..Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

...The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind...

...Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it...

(“ THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

God is not dead, asleep, or changing / changeable,

God does and has changed His METHODS / ECONOMY of relating to Man:
OT covenants ...to NT covenants

While I don't agree with the last sentence (unless moving the text of the everlasting covenant from stone to the heart counts as changed methods) the rest was beautiful! He has to remain consistent or we will run off on tangents that will ultimately lead to our destruction. Look how many already fall away or fall into apostasy when He stands as unchanging. And when we recreate Him as a changing God, we unwittingly open the door for one to say, "what makes you believe He won't change His mind concerning who the door to salvation is?" God's consistency is really what we stand on because His promises as recorded through the bible are based on Him following through which demands consistency.

 

[SBC]

On the other hand.......
G-d adapts to changing circumstances......

Disagree - God does not change. Men change.

God does not adapt - God knows all things. There is nothing new to Him. Nothing new under the sun. Nothing new that has not been before. He knows every person from before their birth and forward. He knows every thought, of mans mind, of mans heart, every deed, word, disease, goodness, path, belief, sin, spot, wickedness, decision, act, hardship, success, work, etc. of every single person.

God has prepared, for every single person, who doubts, believes, falters, stumbles, follows & departs, follows & commits, never believes.....
an appointed time, an appointed place, an appointed life, and appointed death, appointed gift, an appointed blessing, an appointed judgement, an appointed separateness from and an appointed togetherness with God.

These are the short list of the PRE-DESTINIES of mankind, that God knows, has prepared before hand for every man, and each individual man begins learning of his
individual own destiny as he journey's through his own (natural blood life), existing
upon the earth (created and made by God for mankind's habitat).

And ALL men, shall pay to God, what He requires of them.(man's own natural blood life)

Gen 9
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

I disagree that God adapts. God reveals, what He has created and made, for mankind of all generations to find and discover for their good use, to glorify His Great Names.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Tree of Life]

God does not change.

But the times do change. Seasons change. New epochs in Revelation change our understanding of God. The advent of Jesus Christ dramatically changed the way that God is understood and worshipped. Jesus himself said that at one time worship was centralized to the temple in Jerusalem, but since the time of Christ true worshippers will worship neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria, but in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[Ken Rank]

God does not change.

But the times do change. Seasons change. New epochs in Revelation change our understanding of God. The advent of Jesus Christ dramatically changed the way that God is understood and worshipped. Jesus himself said that at one time worship was centralized to the temple in Jerusalem, but since the time of Christ true worshippers will worship neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria, but in Spirit and in Truth.

To a point... remember, God had redemption on His mind before He even made Adam (consider post 53 above) so all He did was in progression to the day Yeshua would come. It was prophesied and waited on... looked forward to. So yes it shifted the course of events (those from the nations now being called) but that isn't God changing, that is the next phase of His plan to redeem mankind.

 

[brinny]

God does not change.

But the times do change. Seasons change. New epochs in Revelation change our understanding of God. The advent of Jesus Christ dramatically changed the way that God is understood and worshipped. Jesus himself said that at one time worship was centralized to the temple in Jerusalem, but since the time of Christ true worshippers will worship neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria, but in Spirit and in Truth.

Thank you for sharing that.

Any Bible verses that will provide clarity on it?