God does not change

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for your in depth explanation. I agree God's character is unchanging and immutable. My answer to the question is rather more simple (I hope).

There are three types of covenant: grant, kinship and vassal (suzerainty treaty). I'd like to focus on two, the grant and vassal. A grant covenant is where one party offers safety and blessing while the other party offers their loyalty. Abraham's covenant with God was a grant covenant. The greater party being God and the lesser party being Abraham. The Mosaic covenant was not a grant covenant but was initially similar to a kinship covenant and later resembles the suzerainty treaty of the Hittites. Vassal covenants award blessings for good behaviour and curses for bad behaviour. God did not intend for this kind of vassal covenant with the Israelites. He initially offered a grant covenant but the people were afraid of coming near to God and requested a covenant similar to that of those in the Near East. As often occurs, God granted their request. Jesus came and ended the vassal covenant with His death. He then established the best covenant, the grant covenant where we offer our loyalty, and God offers blessing and safety (spiritual blessing and safety).

God doesn't change, but the covenants do, because people change.
And we disagree here too, but that is ok. You see many covenants, I see one. Do a word search in a bible program on "my covenant" and see where and how God uses it. I think you'll see that God created a covenant He calls "my covenant" and then He make the covenant with certain people(s) as a progression that leads to Yeshua. You can get a glimpse of the progression by looking at Psalms 105:8-10. What was a promise to Abraham was extended to Isaac as an oath, and then extended to Jacob as a Law, and then to his offspring, Israel, as an everlasting covenant. Read it... it is the same promise going from generation to generation in different forms but at it's core is still the same promise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SBC
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Can you imagine a world where the amount of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh.....
on all humans and on all animals.......
is at a much greater level than at any time since Eden previous to the fall of Eve and Adam......?

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience
When was that time, not at Pentecost? And as for this near death stuff... maybe some is true maybe not. I do know this... God is not the only Spirit that can whisper in our ears or manipulate the physical. I don't trust accounts of what somebody claims to have seen. We have in the 66 books what God intended for us to live... it is LITERALLY an instruction book. Why not just live by it and leave the rest of this alone? It is too easy to get distracted and even turn from God when we place so much weight on things outside of the intended instructions. You look for the next Elijah... he won't be sharing near death experiences... he will be urging people to get back to the Word of God!
 
  • Useful
Reactions: DennisTate
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You need to be careful. The Greeks (Aristotle) were convinced that the gods could not change since changing from one form to another implies that one form is better than another... which means the gods are changing from perfection to more perfection...

In modern thinking the idea that God cannot change is also contradictory to God being omnipotent. If God is omnipotent then he can change. If he can't change then he isn't omnipotent... and I think my head might explode.

So the principle that he is the same yesterday, today and forever is sound, but if yesterday God was a changing God, then he would be today and forever also.
But the BIBLE says God does not change. And the BIBLE says God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is consistent, we are not. And when we allow God the ability to change... we have given us the avenue through which we can recreate Him in our image.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SBC
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
When was that time, not at Pentecost? And as for this near death stuff... maybe some is true maybe not. I do know this... God is not the only Spirit that can whisper in our ears or manipulate the physical. I don't trust accounts of what somebody claims to have seen. We have in the 66 books what God intended for us to live... it is LITERALLY an instruction book. Why not just live by it and leave the rest of this alone? It is too easy to get distracted and even turn from God when we place so much weight on things outside of the intended instructions. You look for the next Elijah... he won't be sharing near death experiences... he will be urging people to get back to the Word of God!

I am sure that yes.....
at the fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts 2 there would be an increase in the amount of Holy Spirit poured out on both humans...... as well as animals......

And... you are obviously correct... somebody can be near death and can meet Satan appearing as an angel of light so we really need to look at each case to be able to make an educated guess as to what happened.........

Ms. Benita Morissette for example.... similar to Matthew chapter 4... met Satan appearing as an angel of light..........

but the fact that he revealed his identity to her has intriguing implications......


My theory at this time is that Stanley Milgram Lucifer Satan is attempting to
divide.... and destroy his own kingdom.......
and send many of his highest level followers to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus much as
Mr. John Ramirez has became one of the most fearless Christians at this time.....
 
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
When was that time, not at Pentecost? And as for this near death stuff... maybe some is true maybe not. I do know this... God is not the only Spirit that can whisper in our ears or manipulate the physical. I don't trust accounts of what somebody claims to have seen. We have in the 66 books what God intended for us to live... it is LITERALLY an instruction book. Why not just live by it and leave the rest of this alone? It is too easy to get distracted and even turn from God when we place so much weight on things outside of the intended instructions. You look for the next Elijah... he won't be sharing near death experiences... he will be urging people to get back to the Word of God!

Will the final Elijah be one of those Christians who is so worried about what the board of directors of a church might say about him that he will reject the admonition to leave the one......
(the already saved Holy Spirit filled Christian).... and go to the 99, (the lost)
and the Lukewarm Christians?

Pastor Rick Joyner: ....... "This is My cup. Will you drink it with Me?"

There was no way that I could refuse Him. As the Lord continued to look at Me I began to feel His great love. Even as foul as I was He still loved me. As undeserving as I was He wanted me to be close to Him. Then He said:

"I love all of these with a love that you cannot now understand. I also love all who are supposed to be here but did not come. I have left the ninety nine to go after the one who was lost. My shepherds would not leave the one to go after the ninety nine who are still lost. I came to save the lost. Will you share My heart to go to save the lost? Will you help to fill this room? Will you help to fill these thrones, and every other seat in this hall? Will you take up this quest to bring joy to heaven, to Me and to My Father? This judgment is for My own household, and My own house is not full. The last battle will not be over until My house is full. Only then will it be time for us to redeem the earth, and remove the evil from My creation. If you drink My cup you will love the lost the way that I loved them."

He then took a cup so plain that I was surprised that it even existed in a room of such glory, and He placed His tear in it. He then gave it to me. I have never tasted anything so bitter. I knew that I could in no way drink it all, or even much of it, but I was determined to drink as much as I could. The Lord patiently waited until I finally erupted into such crying that I felt like veritable rivers of tears were flowing from me. I was crying for the lost, but even more I was crying for the Lord.

I looked to Him in desperation as I could not take any more of this great pain. Then His peace began to fill me and mix with His love that I was feeling. Never had I felt anything so wonderful. This was the living water that I knew could spring up for eternity. Then I felt as if the waters flowing within me caught on fire. I began to feel that this fire would consume me if I could not begin declaring the majesty of His glory. I had never felt such an urge to preach, to worship Him, and to breathe every breath that I was given for the sake of His gospel.

"Lord!" I shouted out, forgetting everyone but Him. "I now know that this throne of judgment is also the throne of grace, and I ask You now for the grace to serve You. Above all things I ask You for grace! I ask You for the grace to finish my course. I ask You for the grace to love You like this so that I can be delivered from the delusions and self-centeredness that so pervert my life. I call upon You for salvation from myself and the evil of my own heart, and for this love that I now feel to flow continually in my heart. I ask You to give me Your heart, Your love. I ask You for the grace of the Holy Spirit to convict me of my sin. I ask You for the grace of the Holy Spirit to testify of You, as You really are. I ask for the grace to testify of all that You have prepared for those who come to You. I ask for the grace to be upon me to preach the reality of this judgment. I ask for the grace to share with those who are called to occupy these empty thrones, to give them words of life that will keep them on the path of life, that will impart to them the faith to do what they have been called to do. Lord, I beg You for this grace."

The Lord then stood up. Then all of those who were seated upon the thrones for as far as I could see also stood up. His eyes burned with a fire I had not seen before.

"You have called upon Me for grace. This request I never deny. You shall return, and the Holy Spirit shall be with you. Here you have tasted of both My kindness and My severity. You must remember both if you are to stay on the path of life. The true love of God includes the judgment of God. You must know both my kindness and severity or you will fall to deception. This is the grace that you have been given here, to know both. The conversations you had with your brethren here were My grace. Remember them."

He then pointed His sword toward my heart, then my mouth, then my hands.

When He did this fire came from His sword and burned me with a great pain. "This too is grace," He said. "You are but one of many who have been prepared for this hour. Preach and write about all that you have seen here. What I have said to you say to My brethren. Go and call My captains to the last battle. Go and defend the poor and the oppressed, the widows and the orphans. This is the commission of My captains, and it is where you will find them. My children are worth more to Me than the stars in the heavens. Feed My lambs. Watch over My little ones. Give the word of God to them that they may live. Go to the battle. Go and do not retreat. Go quickly for I will come quickly. Obey Me and hasten the day of My coming."

A company of angels then came and escorted me away from the throne. The leader walked beside me and began to speak.

"Now that He has stood He will not sit again until the last battle is over. He has been seated until the time when His enemies are to be put under His feet. The time has now come. The legions of angels that have been standing ready since the night of passion have now been released upon the earth. The hordes of hell have also been released. This is the time that all of creation has been waiting for. The great mystery of God will soon be finished. We will now fight until the end. We will fight with you and your brethren."

I awoke." (Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest)
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I am sure that yes.....
at the fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts 2 there would be an increase in the amount of Holy Spirit poured out on both humans...... as well as animals......

Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 that on that day we were given an "Earnest" and "down payment" toward more to come. I don't think we were given more Dennis, I think we were given was was necessary to complete the task. I write about that here, if you are interested. If not, that's fine.

As for animals... not one verse in the BIBLE suggests the animals got the Spirit... only the sons of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DennisTate
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Will the final Elijah be one of those Christians who is so worried about what the board of directors of a church might say about him that he will reject the admonition to leave the one......
(the already saved Holy Spirit filled Christian).... and go to the 99, (the lost)
and the Lukewarm Christians?
Whoever or whatever will be urging people to walk according to God's WORD and nothing more or less.
 
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 that on that day we were given an "Earnest" and "down payment" toward more to come. I don't think we were given more Dennis, I think we were given was was necessary to complete the task. I write about that here, if you are interested. If not, that's fine.

As for animals... not one verse in the BIBLE suggests the animals got the Spirit... only the sons of God.

What about this verse?

Does this mean that even animals will be affected during the Sabbaths?

Will animals be able to feel more of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth?

Isaiah 66:23

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Joel 2:28

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Isaiah 11:6

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What about this verse?

Does this mean that even animals will be affected during the Sabbaths?

Will animals be able to feel more of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth?

Isaiah 66:23

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Joel 2:28

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Isaiah 11:6

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
The Isaiah 66 verses are not talking about now...

and "all flesh" is a phrase... and it is quantified in the remainder of the sentence being quoted... "and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions." Where do you see dogs and cats there? :) You're mixing verses speaking about 2000 years ago with verses that are dealing with just prior to the return of Messiah AND verses dealing with the Millennial Kingdom AND BEYOND. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SBC

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2017
2,477
584
US
✟38,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
When does God call the Old Covenant everlasting?

What - Tho OLD Covenant.

[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
[16] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Pss 105
[8] He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

TO WHO - God's children, WHO "are" His PEOPLE.
WHO "are" His PEOPLE "are" ~

Ex 6
[7] And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Ex 7
[4] But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

Nothing has changed; The children of Israel are STILL Gods People ~ whom God IS their God.

Later ~ a NEW covenant was given TO ALL PEOPLE - Jews AND "including" Gentiles.

The NEW covenant DID NOT DESTROY the OLD covenant. (that required obedience TO the LAW)

Matt 5
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:

Matt 5
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Some ;
remain under the OLD covenant; which requires; God be their God, and they obey the LAW; and keep receiving repeated cleansing and forgiveness of their sins.

Some:
accept to be under the NEW covenant; which requires; God be their God; and provides; forgiveness and cleansing of all of their sin and unrighteousness FOR EVER, by the mans committed belief in Lord Jesus the Christ of God.

Regardless of WHICH covenant ANY man chooses to subject himself TO ~
It is constant ~ God is their God, and the man chooses to SUBJECT himself TO ~
Gods Word.

God Bless,
SBC
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What about this verse?

Does this mean that even animals will be affected during the Sabbaths?

Will animals be able to feel more of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth?

Isaiah 66:23

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Joel 2:28

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Isaiah 11:6

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
I linked an article in post 87, please consider it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: DennisTate
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No one said the Covenant with Abraham ended.

I thought we were talking about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant
It says that God made a promise to Abraham, extended THAT to Isaac as an oath, CONFIRMED THE SAME to Jacob as a Law, and then from him to Israel as an EVERLASTING COVENANT. How can you confirm the SAME to Jacob and not be seeing a progression through generations here? God's covenant with Israel is EVERLASTING, period... end of story. It was broken not by God but by the people and He does not need or is obligated to let ANYONE come back into it. But He does, He is renewing it through Yeshua (as per even the wording in Jer. 31:31 [chadashah] and Heb. 8:8 [kainos]) and that is grace, unmerited favor... grafting back in those who were cut off.

Again... if you don't believe this that's fine... I don't care to discuss it. As soon as I get through the rest of my notifications, I am signing out and am done indefinitely here.
 
Upvote 0

Silly Uncle Wayne

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,332
598
57
Dublin
✟102,646.00
Country
Ireland
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
But the BIBLE says God does not change. And the BIBLE says God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is consistent, we are not. And when we allow God the ability to change... we have given us the avenue through which we can recreate Him in our image.
To be clear, the reference to yesterday, today and forever refers specifically to Jesus Christ and it is in the context of teaching and leadership and being led astray.

This means that it should be read as the Jesus the I worship and follow is the same Jesus that Paul and the writer the Hebrews worshipped and followed. It is NOT some person who changes based on the teachings of any given individual.

It is most certainly not a reference to the fact that God cannot change, which as I pointed out is a limitation imposed on God by Greek philosophy, not by Jewish or Christian theology which expected a dynamic God who could and did change in accordance with the actions of himself and others.

God cannot destroy the Earth by flood... yet he used to be able to. Ergo he has changed.

This is not to say that God can change to whatever I want him to. There are clearly parameters to any change that are self imposed. God cannot stop being God for example, or have a day off.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To be clear, the reference to yesterday, today and forever refers specifically to Jesus Christ and it is in the context of teaching and leadership and being led astray.

That context is about doctrine but it is a narrow view to think that there can only be one meaning in the words, "same yesterday, today, forever." Do you believe Yeshua is God? If yes, there are other verses that state, "God does not change" which would apply to him, as well, and give the Hebrews verse a wider meaning. It is because He does not change, because He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that we can rest on His words not changing and thus learn and apply what we learn in security.

This means that it should be read as the Jesus the I worship and follow is the same Jesus that Paul and the writer the Hebrews worshipped and followed. It is NOT some person who changes based on the teachings of any given individual.

Yes, I know... that was my exact point!

It is most certainly not a reference to the fact that God cannot change, which as I pointed out is a limitation imposed on God by Greek philosophy, not by Jewish or Christian theology which expected a dynamic God who could and did change in accordance with the actions of himself and others.

Actually Wayne, it isn't Greek thought that says God cannot change... it is Hebraic thought that says God cannot change. It is from the Greek philosophical influences on our culture that has caused Christianity to spiritualize anything it doesn't understand. That is Greek thought and it causes God to change.

God cannot destroy the Earth by flood... yet he used to be able to. Ergo he has changed.

No, God cannot destroy the world by flood because He promised He wouldn't ever do that again. That isn't God changing His character or changing His person... that is God simply not breaking a promise.

This is not to say that God can change to whatever I want him to. There are clearly parameters to any change that are self imposed. God cannot stop being God for example, or have a day off.

If the character of God can change, then what is and is not sin can change because that which is sin stands in contrast to His character. If God can change... then perhaps He determines that Yeshua is no longer the door to walk through and that there becomes some other way to salvation. When we take your position, which is a very Greek one, we open the door to everything we know and hold dear potentially ending because "God just changed His mind." That undermines the whole faith!
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I don’t see that Jesus as God grew in grace.

Who’s favor is God seeking

There is more than one definition of grace.

He grew in power, all sorts, like knowledge when a child. And then was filled with the divine power of God at His baptism when the Holy Spirit fell on Him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There is more than one definition of grace.

He grew in power, all sorts, like knowledge when a child. And then was filled with the divine power of God at His baptism when the Holy Spirit fell on Him.
So grace now means power and knowledge.

Do you have verses to support this definition of grace?
 
Upvote 0