God does not change

[Ken Rank]

There are ways to understand that without the need for God to change his character attribute of mercy. When Jesus resurrected and ascended to heaven he ushered in a new age of the spirit. Salvation was no longer just for the Jews but also went out to the gentiles. The relational position of humanity relative to God was changed through God's action, which enabled his grace to be expressed in a new way. Good himself didn't change in his attributes, but through his action he changed the way man relates to him.

You see a new age... I don't, not at all... not in the language nor the continuity in Scripture from Genesis through Revelation. I can go with you on grace "expressed a new way" because, though the Tanach (OT) pointed to Yeshua's work, it was pointing... he actually came and did it. And what he did began a call into the nations that was prophesied, so a new expression? Sure... decent wording but mercy/grace in the end is still "unmerited favor." So how it was extended might have broadened beyond Judea.... but it is still unmerited favor.

 

[Ken Rank]

The question one of divine immutability, and how exactly we understand 'God does not change'. Does that mean he doesn't change in any way at all (known as strong immutability), or does it mean he doesn't change in his nature or character.

While I believe God can and does adapt to us to a point (i.e. He is the inspiration for all language seeing He confounded the one language) His character, reputation, and authority (His name) does not change. I hold the view that if something is sin today it always has been and always will be. And if something was sin 4000 years ago it still is today and always will be. Why? Because that which is sin stands in contrast to the character of God... and that which is permissible is in harmony with God's character. Since that character doesn't change... then what is sin and what is not does not either. But it is obvious, in Scripture, that He can alter how He goes about something based on circumstances. That isn't Him changing His nature or His character.... that is Him extending unmerited favor to beings far less than He is.

 

[mukk_in]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

Thoughtful post. Thank you .

 

[Everybodyknows]

You see a new age... I don't, not at all... not in the language nor the continuity in Scripture from Genesis through Revelation.

Perhaps new covenant would have been a better phrase. However you interpret that you must see some shift in the relationship between man and God accomplished by the work of the cross. Furthermore the function of the spirit also changed in relation to believers.

I can go with you on grace "expressed a new way" because, though the Tanach (OT) pointed to Yeshua's work, it was pointing... he actually came and did it. And what he did began a call into the nations that was prophesied, so a new expression? Sure... decent wording but mercy/grace in the end is still "unmerited favor." So how it was extended might have broadened beyond Judea.... but it is still unmerited favor.

Well of course one wouldn't expect the definition of mercy to change. Yes the unmerited favour now extends beyond the old covenant with Israel to all mankind. So in a sense there is more mercy from man's perspective, because it is now available to all. That doesn't mean God has changed at all in his mercifulness, but now he has means by which to extend that mercy to a wider audience through the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ken Rank. God is Love, and God does not change. What does God want from us? Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Love is very catching, and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 7-10; we are told: Ask and you shall receive, we ask God for Love and Compassion, then we thank God, and share all love and compassion with our neighbour: (all we know and all we meet)
The Bible tells us: give up all selfish wishes and wants, ask God for Love, then our loving behaviour, and God will Bless us greatly. God is LOVE, let us love God and ask for Love, then share love all around us.
God will be with us, and God is LOVE. Love will always be victorious, no matter what else we forget to mention. Let Love lead us always. Why not try Ken, love is very, very catching. Let us try and change this imperfect world. I say this with love, and send greetings. From Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ken Rank. I have answered once before, but cannot find your answer. Usually my Grandson helps me, but he is away at the moment. Did you get my reply? I would dearly like to know your thoughts on it. Thank you Ken. P.S. I write often about love, but I find love very strong and helpful. Please let me know your thoughts. Your sister in Christ Emmy.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Now THAT I disagree with but that is for another thread. The Greek OT translated in 300BC used ekklesia for Israel around Sinai. The Hebrew equal to the word ekklesia is used often in reference to Israel. If you want to pick a beginning, chose Sinai where that which will be on the heart NOW was placed on stone THEN. Of chose the moment God said, "Let there be" for the first time because He said those words knowing Adam, whom He hadn't created yet, would fall. Therefore, if the progression leading to our redemption began then... then we can use that time as a starting point as well. I, personally, would rather avoid starting points... it gets too dispensational for me.

Actually the first promise was given to Satan, of all people!

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

 

[1am3laine]

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

really means He is GOD and He NEVER changes His position of being GOD. NOT that He doesn't change His mind.

Exodus 32:14 = God changed his mind.

 

[Ken Rank]

Perhaps new covenant would have been a better phrase. However you interpret that you must see some shift in the relationship between man and God accomplished by the work of the cross. Furthermore the function of the spirit also changed in relation to believers.

Respectfully, you and I have drastically different paradigms. I don't see a "new" covenant as in brand new as that is how it reads in English but NOT how it reads in Hebrew (Jer. 31:31) and Greek (Heb. 8:8). You see a change in the function of the Spirit and I see God using the Spirit in us for reasons He has used before... but on a smaller scale (I have a short article on this if you are interested). We walk and talk as if us having the Spirit is the end all when Scripture very plainly calls it a deposit or down payment toward much more to come (see 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5). So, there is no sense trying to win the other over here with facts (as we see them) because we have such a different lens through which we are reading the bible. Who is correct? I don't care... we both have things that are correct and we will both be corrected for things we have wrong, in due course.

 

[brinny]

Just as a note: God looks for opportunities to show mercy. He doesn't "change His mind" in that He was "mistaken" or "wrong", He seeks "mercy". Many times He has used one of His Godly servants to plead on behalf of a sinful people (as He did with Moses). He prefers "mercy" than any falling into His holy hands for lack of repentance.

That's what this verse is referring to:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

 

[Ken Rank]

Actually the first promise was given to Satan, of all people!

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Are you saying Genesis 3:15 is the first promise? That might be considered the first messianic prophecy (though I could make a good argument for Gen. 1:14 instead) but that isn't the first promise. Unless we are defining promise differently? God promised to give Adam dominion over creation before the verse you mention shows up. I am sure I can find another example somewhere else before the 3rd chapter.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Are you saying Genesis 3:15 is the first promise? That might be considered the first messianic prophecy (though I could make a good argument for Gen. 1:14 instead) but that isn't the first promise. Unless we are defining promise differently? God promised to give Adam dominion over creation before the verse you mention shows up. I am sure I can find another example somewhere else before the 3rd chapter.

We had been talking about "the Church." The Seed is the first mention of a Messiah.

 

[Ken Rank]

We had been talking about "the Church." The Seed is the first mention of a Messiah.

That is what I am saying... many take it at that. But since the feasts are all used to point to his work, and the feasts are mentioned in Genesis 1:14, then I kind of see that as the first promise of what he would do even if what those feasts pointed to, individually, didn't occur until a later time.

 

[Ken Rank]

Dear Ken Rank. God is Love, and God does not change. What does God want from us? Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Love is very catching, and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 7-10; we are told: Ask and you shall receive, we ask God for Love and Compassion, then we thank God, and share all love and compassion with our neighbour: (all we know and all we meet)
The Bible tells us: give up all selfish wishes and wants, ask God for Love, then our loving behaviour, and God will Bless us greatly. God is LOVE, let us love God and ask for Love, then share love all around us.
God will be with us, and God is LOVE. Love will always be victorious, no matter what else we forget to mention. Let Love lead us always. Why not try Ken, love is very, very catching. Let us try and change this imperfect world. I say this with love, and send greetings. From Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Why do you assume, my sister, that I lack love or that I don't understand that love is the basis for all the law and prophets?

By the way, the great 2 commandments were not new... Yeshua was quoting Deuteronomy and Leviticus in sharing love God and love neighbor. Just more evidence that God does not change.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

Sure. God Himself doesn't change. But, this doesn't mean that He might not qualify or requalify some principle He previously put in place in the world. And I think this is where people get confused.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Ken Rank]

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

really means He is GOD and He NEVER changes His position of being GOD. NOT that He doesn't change His mind.

Exodus 32:14 = God changed his mind.

I didn't say He wouldn't change His mind... although I will say this, He knew in the beginning what He will know in the end. I can prove using at least 2 verses from different biblical books that God knew Adam would fall before He even created Him. And if He knew that, then He knew He would not go through with what He threatened in Exd. 31:14. This is like with Isaac... God had no plans to allow Abraham to take his son's life... and with the Exodus verse you bring up the context is clear that had God done what He threatened, His promises that God said we "everlasting" wouldn't come to pass profaning His own name (character). So what we draw from this verse you bring up is personal sacrifice on the side of Moses stepping up and interceding AS A PICTURE OF CHRIST. This is no different than us deserving death and God relenting because of what Yeshua did... Moses is a picture of that here and that is the message we should take from this.

 

[Ken Rank]

Sure. God Himself doesn't change. But, this doesn't mean that He might not qualify or requalify some principle He previously put in place in the world. And I think this is where people get confused.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

My contention is simply that God knew before He created Adam that Adam would fall and I have two verses that come from different books that make this claim. Therefore, if He knew before Adam was created that Adam would fall, then everything God did from creating Adam on was done with our redemption in mind. Therefore... I see one line of progression and continuity between the OT and the NT that most don't see. I don't think He changed the rules of the look of the game... I think He simply progressed from generation to generation until we are finally perfected.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My contention is simply that God knew before He created Adam that Adam would fall and I have two verses that come from different books that make this claim. Therefore, if He knew before Adam was created that Adam would fall, then everything God did from creating Adam on was done with our redemption in mind. Therefore... I see one line of progression and continuity between the OT and the NT that most don't see. I don't think He changed the rules of the look of the game... I think He simply progressed from generation to generation until we are finally perfected.

I'm definitely in agreement with you there, Ken. I don't see any inconsistency with God knowing beforehand that He'd have to reach across the Gap of Spiritual Incontinence and do for us what we don't have within ourselves to do since we're human beings and not gods.

But, you don't think He changed the rules? How so, Ken?

 

[Andras]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

 

[Andras]

If folks don't see grace in the OT it's simply because they are blind to it.

The following verse nurtures this theology:
"For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah."
For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah.
John 1:17 (Complete Jewish Bible)
I personally, as a Jewish believer in Yeshua (Jesus), agree with You, because G-D's grace (along with HIS true judgement) accompanies the whole history of the Jewish people in the Torah.
Shalom and blessings to You in HIM.