God does not change

[Ken Rank]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

 

[Dawnhammer]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change.

You know the verses, languages and meanings do change over time. Maybe thousand years from now it will read “God doesn’t change more than needed” and future forums activist can have a field day interpreting what that means.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

I agree that God never changes. This is why I find it odd to see people believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

 

[Ken Rank]

You know the verses, languages and meanings do change over time. Maybe thousand years from now it will read “God doesn’t change more than needed” and future forums activist can have a field day interpreting what that means.

Troublemaker!

 

[Ken Rank]

You know the verses, languages and meanings do change over time. Maybe thousand years from now it will read “God doesn’t change more than needed” and future forums activist can have a field day interpreting what that means.

I will say this though... languages can change, cultures, other influencing factors but what that reveals is what we already know, man changes.

 

[Almost there]

I agree that God never changes. This is why I find it odd to see people believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

Well, I see it more like a parent changing how they raise their child as the child matures. God hasn't changed, but we have (as a civilization). It's why we get the type of Grace we do in the new covenant.

When you wax an old paint job more often than when it was new, it's the paint job, not you, that has changed. And you handle it accordingly.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well, I see it more like a parent changing how they raise their child as the child matures. God hasn't changed, but we have (as a civilization). It's why we get the type of Grace we do in the new covenant.

When you wax an old paint job more often than when it was new, it's the paint job, not you, that has changed. And you handle it accordingly.

You said the word, but I'm not sure that you know that things do not change in a COVENANT. We need the power of the gifts as much today as we did in the 1st century.

 

[Ken Rank]

Well, I see it more like a parent changing how they raise their child as the child matures. God hasn't changed, but we have (as a civilization). It's why we get the type of Grace we do in the new covenant.

I hear your point but if the grace we get now is different than the grace we got long ago... then grace has two faces? Has changed? Can mean one thing to one person and something else to another? David got a different grace than Paul? God knew we would fall before He created us. I don't believe He created us to fall but created us knowing we would. Therefore, everything He did from creating Adam on was already working toward the redemption of creation... so the grace is consistent from start to finish.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If folks don't see grace in the OT it's simply because they are blind to it.

 

[Almost there]

You said the word, but I'm not sure that you know that things do not change in a COVENANT. We need the power of the gifts as much today as we did in the 1st century.

Yes. I mean the same covenant that was there in the first century. But we change over the centuries as a civilization. It's a bit like an airplane taking off. It uses full throttle to get off the ground. It lifts the flaps, it lifts the landing gear. And at cruizing speed it backs off the throttle and continues on to its destination.

There was only one day of Pentecost.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I hear your point but if the grace we get now is different than the grace we got long ago... then grace has two faces? Has changed? Can mean one thing to one person and something else to another? David got a different grace than Paul? God knew we would fall before He created us. I don't believe He created us to fall but created us knowing we would. Therefore, everything He did from creating Adam on was already working toward the redemption of creation... so the grace is consistent from start to finish.

One aspect of grace that the apostles knew is realized in Acts 4:33. They used a Semitic style of writing to show us that grace is the power of God.

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes. I mean the same covenant that was there in the first century. But we change over the centuries as a civilization. It's a bit like an airplane taking off. It uses full throttle to get off the ground. It lifts the flaps, it lifts the landing gear. And at cruizing speed it backs off the throttle and continues on to its destination.

There was only one day of Pentecost.

The Day of Pentecost was the beginning of the Church, not the end. It is still here, and still growing.

 

[Ken Rank]

One aspect of grace that the apostles knew is realized in Acts 4:33. They used a Semitic style of writing to show us that grace is the power of God.

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

I agree... but we need to be careful not to read into that. Meaning, we shouldn't see "greater grace" where it simply says "great grace." I would add, too, that I am not trying to downplay the AMAZING works that God did through them. I am simply saying that God does not change... mercy is mercy... and we see it consistently throughout all 66 books (a fact I know you agree with).

 

[Ken Rank]

The Day of Pentecost was the beginning of the Church, not the end. It is still here, and still growing.

Now THAT I disagree with but that is for another thread. The Greek OT translated in 300BC used ekklesia for Israel around Sinai. The Hebrew equal to the word ekklesia is used often in reference to Israel. If you want to pick a beginning, chose Sinai where that which will be on the heart NOW was placed on stone THEN. Of chose the moment God said, "Let there be" for the first time because He said those words knowing Adam, whom He hadn't created yet, would fall. Therefore, if the progression leading to our redemption began then... then we can use that time as a starting point as well. I, personally, would rather avoid starting points... it gets too dispensational for me.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Now THAT I disagree with but that is for another thread. The Greek OT translated in 300BC used ekklesia for Israel around Sinai. The Hebrew equal to the word ekklesia is used often in reference to Israel. If you want to pick a beginning, chose Sinai where that which will be on the heart NOW was placed on stone THEN. Of chose the moment God said, "Let there be" for the first time because He said those words knowing Adam, whom He hadn't created yet, would fall. Therefore, if the progression leading to our redemption began then... then we can use that time as a starting point as well. I, personally, would rather avoid starting points... it gets too dispensational for me.

I do believe in dispensations, but not as many as some believe. LOL Some are just plain man made.

 

[Everybodyknows]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God.

The question one of divine immutability, and how exactly we understand 'God does not change'. Does that mean he doesn't change in any way at all (known as strong immutability), or does it mean he doesn't change in his nature or character.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We have a number of verses that make the subject statement clear, God does not change. He is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, ANY doctrine we develop that causes God's character to change or His authority to shift, is changing the Word of God. It doesn't mean we have done an evil, it means we have reached a conclusion that needs to be reworked out. Case in point... recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

The story of Joseph is one that cries "grace" from start to finish. In fact, so much so was God's hand on Joseph that Joseph said to his brothers later, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." God was with Joseph, showing him mercy through each ordeal that lead to Israel (the tribes) being saved from the famine... consider...

Had Joseph not had the dreams he did, he would not have upset his brothers. If his brothers did not become angry with him, he would not have been thrown into a pit. Had he not been thrown into a pit, they might not have seen the slave traders he was sold to. If he had not been sold into slavery he would not have been chosen by Potiphar to tend to his house. Had he not been a favorite of Potiphar, he would have been executed over false charges. If it weren't for the false charges, he wouldn't have been in prison to hear the dreams of his cellmates. Had he not interpreted those dreams correctly, Pharaoh would not have become aware of Joseph and Joseph would not have become the #2 in Egypt AND his family (all the tribes of Israel) would have perished in the famine. Grace saw Joseph to the point of being used to preserve God's promises... grace is all through that story and those who don't see it, sadly, don't understand grace!

So the next time somebody says that the law was for long ago and grace is only for today... just tell them that God doesn't change and let it go. They'll figure it out, eventually.

God does not change, our perception of him does.

 

[1stcenturylady]

God does not change, our perception of him does.

Right! Some even believe He's not around anymore after the Bible was completed. Maybe He's taking a vacation on Mars.

 

[Everybodyknows]

recently on this forum I was told that there is "more grace today" than there was before. But since "mercy" (grace and mercy are the same thing) is actually mentioned more times in the OT than grace/mercy is in the NT, how can that be? And how can that be when "mercy" is a character attribute of a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever? I am not really looking for an answer on that... I am really making a statement from the question.

There are ways to understand that without the need for God to change his character attribute of mercy. When Jesus resurrected and ascended to heaven he ushered in a new age of the spirit. Salvation was no longer just for the Jews but also went out to the gentiles. The relational position of humanity relative to God was changed through God's action, which enabled his grace to be expressed in a new way. Good himself didn't change in his attributes, but through his action he changed the way man relates to him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

James 4:6 says we have more grace, I believe that was the passage that came to remembrance when I said "we have more grace"
.
It does not say God is more Graceful, it says "we have more grace" in that we are receiving more grace than the previous age of history prior to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus said it is better that I go so I can send the comforter. Previously, the prophets and kings had elements of the blessings we have today, but not the regular populace. However now, we are in the covenant where people do not say "know the lord" to their neighbour because the greatest to the least all know Jesus in this covenant because his very nature is woven into us: something that wasn't present in the previous age.