GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Strong in Him]

You fail to take into consideration that they made their choices and had to choose differently under the control of God.

They weren't under the control of God.
Pharoah was a pagan and didn't know him. If he'd been under God's control, he would have released the Israelites the first time Moses asked. Unless you're trying to tell me that the pagan Egyptians were already predestined to go to hell and God manipulated events to make sure they got there!
Jonah was a prophet of the Lord, a man who had clearly heard God's voice and knew what God wanted him to do. If he'd been under God's control - like a puppet - he would have had to obey God; God would have made it so he couldn't run away.

Pharaoh had let the people go and would not have pursued them had not God intervened for His glory.

Not according to Exodus 14:
"When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharoah and his officials changed their minds about them and said, 'what have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services'!" (v5)

v 8 says that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart - whatever that means - but Pharoah had already planned what he was going to do before that.
And anyway, the Israelites had already left, so why would God have needed to intervene for his glory? It had already happened - the plagues, the Passover, the exodus. The Hebrew slaves had left Egypt and were on their way to the promised land, just as God had promised. Joseph foresaw that God would do this for them. (Genesis 50:24-25).

Pharoah treated God the same way some people do today - call out to him in times of trouble, make various promises, but then turn their back on him once the danger is passed. Plus, he wanted to keep his cheap slaves who were there to make life comfortable for him.

The same with Jonah and Jonah died in the belly of the whale when He cried out from sheol for redemption.

Jonah didn't die in the whale, he prayed to God and asked for another chance.

One way or the other, if you are one of God's and you don't fight against Him, you will make the choices pleasing to Him.

If you are God's child and you love him, you will want to please him and do his will. And if you say "Jesus is Lord of my life" and are sincere, then the Lord will take you at your word. If you say that you will do God's will and serve him but then disobey, of course he is likely to correct you. Otherwise the phrase "Jesus is Lord" is nonsense, and what the person really means is "I am Lord of my life, and God is there to bail me out when things get tough." Some Christians do pray that God will bless what they've already decided to do, rather than asking him first.

Pharoah's decision to go after Moses and the Israelites was not pleasing to God, so he destroyed them - or at least, the soldiers. Pharoah was the one who gave the order, yet there is no evidence that he, himself, was killed.

 

[Hismessenger]

Because you want it so badly to be so doesn't make it so.

Exd 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.

Exd 14:5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?

As you can read, it was by God's decree that Pharaoh choose the way He did. God caused the change in his demeanor for His purpose and Pharaoh had no choice but to choose the path which God had set for Him. Or do you think that He could have done otherwise?

The word of God is truth and law. It can never come back void and will perform what it is sent to do.

God is in control.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Do you still believe it right to question the Creator. His ways are unsearchable and His thought's are not our thought's. You cannot figure out what God is doing. This is why faith is so important. Trust Him unquestioningly and He will lead your path in the ways of righteousness.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

Because you want it so badly to be so doesn't make it so.

As you can read, it was by God's decree that Pharaoh choose the way He did. God caused the change in his demeanor for His purpose and Pharaoh had no choice but to choose the path which God had set for Him.

Verse 5 says that Pharoah and his officials changed their minds. They suddenly realised that their cheap workforce had gone and they had no one to work for them. So how do you reconcile that with v 8?

Just because the writer of Exodus chose to use the words "God hardened his heart" to explain something, does NOT mean that God sat in heaven thinking, "it's my plan for him to die and go to hell, he HAS to do this - I can't have him thinking for himself, he might be saved. So I have to intervene to make sure that he CAN'T be saved". Such a notion is completely alien to the nature and character of God. God is LOVE. Love protects, hopes, trusts, perseveres, shows compassion.

The reason the Egyptians had to endure so many plagues was because Pharoah would not listen to what Moses said God was telling him to do. With each plague, Pharoah said they could go; after each plague was over, he changed his mind. As I said, human nature can be like that - call out to God to save you, then ignore him.
So when the Israelites had finally gone, it's no surprise that Pharoah changed his mind again. Why would God have needed to intervene and make Pharoah go after the Egyptians?

Do you still believe it right to question the Creator. His ways are unsearchable and His thought's are not our thought's. You cannot figure out what God is doing. This is why faith is so important. Trust Him unquestioningly and He will lead your path in the ways of righteousness.

I can know the God of love because he has revealed himself to me in the Bible and demonstrated his amazing love by the cross. I can know something of the will of God, because a) he has revealed that too, and b) Paul says that if we do not conform to the standard of the world but are transformed by the renewing of our minds, then we will know the will of God (Rom 12:1). Jesus told his disciples he did not call them servants any longer, because a servant did not know what his master was doing. Paul says that we are continually being transformed into the image and likeness of Jesus (2 Cor 3:18). I believe that Jesus hasn't returned yet because God, in his amazing patience and love, is giving as many people as possible the opportunity to know him. Peter says the same thing, (2 Peter 3:9).
God wants us to know him and his will. Faith is not saying, "I don't know what God wants to do - he may do this, he may not, he may change his mind if he feels like it. I'll just believe that he'll lead me somehow." Faith is saying, "I don't know what's going to happen, but I know who God is, I know he wants the best for me, I know he has promised to lead me and I trust that he will never let me down because he is faithful." Faith is putting your hand into God's hand. That means knowing God.

How can we trust God if we don't know what he is likely to do; if there is a possibility he may "harden our hearts", or force us to listen to him, or punish us if we get it wrong? We'd serve him then out of uncertainty and fear, not love, gratitude and joyful obedience.

 

[Hismessenger]

Strong in Him,

Verse 5 says that Pharoah and his officials changed their minds.

I just showed you in the scripture that it was God who caused Pharaoh to change His mind in verse 4. Go back and read the beginning of Moses being sent to Pharaoh. God had already decreed that He was going to use Pharaoh for His Glory before the plagues

But you refuse to have your eyes opened and continue to lean to your own understanding. God hardened Pharaoh heart for His glory. Whether you can agree with this or not is irrelevant because that is what happened and disbelief will not alter the word one iota. Heaven and hell will pass away before His word will fail.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

I just showed you in the scripture that it was God who caused Pharaoh to change His mind in verse 4. Go back and read the beginning of Moses being sent to Pharaoh. God had already decreed that He was going to use Pharaoh for His Glory before the plagues

You haven't explained why God would NEED to make Pharoah change his mind. What was the point?

God had constantly said to Pharoah, "let mmy people go that they might worship me". Pharoah refused, God sent a plague, Pharoah changed his mind, the plague went away, Pharoah went back on his word, Moses went to him and said, "God says 'let my people go".
After the tenth plague, Pharoah gave in - the Israelites not only left Egypt, they took the Egyptians wealth with them. They left the country, which must have taken a few days at least, and must have got some distance away from the Egyptians. God's word had been obeyed, the prophecy that Joseph gave had come to pass; the Israelites were on their way to the Promised Land and were already worshipping God.

So why, at that point, did God HAVE to say "I need to make Pharoah change his mind and send his army after them?" That's the bit that's out of character for God, because the only reason I can see is if he decided, a week or so later, that he wanted to punish them all even further. So he made Pharoah change his mind, sent his army after them and killed them. And did this actually achieve anything? The Israelites praised God - until the next problem came along. Pharoah might have been subdued, but there is no evidence that he lost his life too, or even repented. So what was the point of God having to MAKE Pharoah change his mind? What difference did it make to Pharoah? He didn't honour God before, did he do so afterwards? We don't know.

 

[Hismessenger]

The point is because this is what God decreed.

Exd 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Exd 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Now you ask why would God cause this to happen. Here is the verse that explains it if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

nfo: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

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NLT - Exd 14:4 - And once again I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after you. I have planned this so I will receive great glory at the expense of Pharaoh and his armies. After this, the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD!" So the Israelites camped there as they were told.

: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

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NIV - Exd 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this.

: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

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ESV - Exd 14:4 - “And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

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NASB - Exd 14:4 - "Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

: - New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

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RSV - Exd 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

: - Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

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ASV - Exd 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he shall follow after them; and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host: and the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah. And they did so.

: - American Standard Version 1901 Info

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YNG - Exd 14:4 - and I have strengthened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath pursued after them, and I am honoured on Pharaoh, and on all his force, and the Egyptians have known that I [am] Jehovah;' and they do so.

DBY- Exd 14:4 -
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he may pursue after them; and I will glorify myself in Pharaoh, and in all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah. And they did so.

: - J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

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WEB - Exd 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow them; and I will be honored upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.

: - Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

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HNV - Exd 14:4 - I will harden Par`oh's heart, and he will follow after them; and I will get honor over Par`oh, and over all his host; and the Mitzrim shall know that I am the LORD." They did so.

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I gave you all these translations so that there could be no misunderstanding of why He did this. The end results is so that the Egyptians would know that He was The God of Israel and over all the earth.
The idea is that God had purpose in what He did. It is only for us to trust His righteousness and His judgments.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm finished with this thread.

The OP stated that God created evil. The view of some of us here is that he didn't, but if you want to believe that the only way our God can be glorified is by creating evil and making people disobey him, either so that he can punish them as a message to others, or so that he can rescue them and show his mercy; go ahead.

The God I worship is love.
He does not have to do these things to prove that he is good and great - he has nothing to prove to anyone. He is God.

 

[msortwell]

Consider the following . . .

“31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Ge 1:31-2:3 AV)

By the time of the 7th day of creation, was there evil in the world? No. On the 6th day God pronounced that all that He had created was “very good.” On the 7th day God rested from the work of creation. He had completed the creation of the world. There were within His creation free moral agents with the ability to choose to obey God, or choose to disregard His commands. They would (seemingly soon) usher evil into the world, but at the time that creation was complete, all was very good.

It is useful also to consider that neither evil nor good are created things. Rather they describe the behavior or character of created things. For something to be “good” it must be that which pleases God. For something to be “evil” it must simply not do that which pleases God. It is no coincidence that the Bible often represents goodness and righteousness as light, while representing evil as darkness. Darkness is merely the absence of light. It seems that evil is, similarly, the absence of righteousness.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Hismessenger]

By the time of the 7th day of creation, was there evil in the world?

Believe it or not there was evil in the world. And Satan was the cause of it. Satan was the real cause of the fall of the creation and He fell in eternity and that was before the earth was complete. Then God placed the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL In the garden. How did the tree come to be in the garden. God created it to be there. Anyone have a problem with understanding that fact. So it is a created thing for Good is ever present in the eternal God.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

Believe it or not there was evil in the world. And Satan was the cause of it. Satan was the real cause of the fall of the creation and He fell in eternity and that was before the earth was complete. Then God placed the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL In the garden. How did the tree come to be in the garden. God created it to be there. Anyone have a problem with understanding that fact. So it is a created thing for Good is ever present in the eternal God.

hismessenger

The timing of Satan’s fall is not ascribed a date within Scripture. At the time that God rested in His creative work He proclaimed all that He created “very good.” Therefore, the presence of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil did not necessitate that evil was present in the world. It is without question that to have knowledge of evil is not synonymous with being evil or committing evil acts. Clearly God, in His omniscience, has since eternity past, understood evil, yet He is every bit holy and good. Angels and men, prior to their respective falls, had the ability to sin prior to their respective transgressions. They had the capacity for evil by had not yet exercised that ability. Prior to their exercising that ability, there was no evil - merely the capacity to do evil .

Did God create free moral creatures capable of sinning, who would certainly sin? Absolutely. However, this is substantively different than creating evil.

Before Adam sinned, and plunged his race into sin and 'won' for them a sinful nature, He (Adam) was fully capable of genuine righteousness. He was also fully capable of transgressing God’s command. He was free to choose that which he desired. And unlike every human being that followed him (except Christ Himself) he held no predisposition toward sin. He was not under the bondage of sin, nor was he a slave to righteousness. Other than Christ, Adam was the most “free” man to walk the planet.

God’s Word makes it clear that despite the certainty with which a thing is to occur – it being a part of that which God did foreordain – God holds men accountable for the things they choose to do.

Consider . . .

“Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” (Mt 18:7 AV)

 

[msortwell]

Yes God knew for He had already ordained Christ to bring glory to himself through the salvation of man. Can you not fathom this reality. They had to fall as part of His purpose for Christ. They didn't choose to fall, they fell by design or else there would have been no need for Christ. They had to choose the way they did because God had ordained it to be for His purpose.

hismessenger

But it is not an either/or situation. They (in Adam) fell by design, but they did so by man's choice. Man did fall, and was responsible for that fall. God's foreknowledge and foreordaining of Man's transgression does not make God the author of sin.

 

[Hismessenger]

When do you think Satan was cast down to earth. Future or past?

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Until iniquity was found in Him. Do you really believe that an omnipotent God would have a creation without knowing everything about it since He was the one who planned it. And secondly do you really believe that God is still creating when He said on the seventh day that he rested from His work. Does an omnipotent God have to change things in His creation or alter things because He didn't know how they would turn out. Think hard on that fact.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

When do you think Satan was cast down to earth. Future or past?

hismessenger

Help me out here . . . .

". . . was cast down . . ." "Future or past?"

"Was" is past tense . . . so it seems that you answered your own question - Not likely what you intended.

I suspect that you were intending to ask about Satan's being cast out relative to some other event in history?

If that is the case. Please specify the time in history.

 

[msortwell]

Until iniquity was found in Him. Do you really believe that an omnipotent God would have a creation without knowing everything about it since He was the one who planned it. And secondly do you really believe that God is still creating when He said on the seventh day that he rested from His work. Does an omnipotent God have to change things in His creation or alter things because He didn't know how they would turn out. Think hard on that fact.

hismessenger

Hism . . . was this written in response to my post(s)? I started to respond to it, but it seems to be arguing against things other that what I wrote. What post(s) were you responding to here?

 

[Benoni]

Until iniquity was found in Him. Do you really believe that an omnipotent God would have a creation without knowing everything about it since He was the one who planned it. And secondly do you really believe that God is still creating when He said on the seventh day that he rested from His work. Does an omnipotent God have to change things in His creation or alter things because He didn't know how they would turn out. Think hard on that fact.

hismessenger

Adam was created in God's image on the sixth day; which is spirit; seeing God is a spirit.

On the seventh day God lowered man from the realm of pure spirit to the dust man, soul man. So yes, God's plan for humanity was to process man. That is why we were here; without these processing’s we would be mere puppets.

 

[Hismessenger]

Msortwell

But it is not an either/or situation. They (in Adam) fell by design, but they did so by man's choice.

Let me ask you this question. Could man have chosen not to sin and if so what would be the ramifications of that choice to God?

hismessenger

 

[Benoni]

Man has no choice; look at the scripture instead of you bias opinion.


Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope


Man has no choose, freewill to follow God; in fact the Bible teaches totally too contrary. It was god who caused the fall. And it is God who has a plan to fix it.

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NASB) 20Forthe creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[msortwell]

Msortwell

Let me ask you this question. Could man have chosen not to sin and if so what would be the ramifications of that choice to God?

Man, prior to the fall, had the ability to not sin (in a manner of speaking) been that man would have remained in a right relationship with God - until man sinned against God. In that case, in what way federal headship have its effect?

Of course, it is a complete abstraction (perhaps to the point of being nonsensical) to ponder what abilitites a being might have that, if exercised, would run contrary to what God had foreknown would come to pass. Because what God foreknow would most certainly come to pass.

 

[Hismessenger]

If Man had not fallen, the whole of the creation would have been corrupt in that the word of God would have been made void. Christ was ordained as the saviour of the world before the world began. Could it have been any other way?

hismessenger