GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Benoni]

So what is being said here is man was ordain to fall; which is true.

 

[squint]

But it is not an either/or situation. They (in Adam) fell by design, but they did so by man's choice. Man did fall, and was responsible for that fall. God's foreknowledge and foreordaining of Man's transgression does not make God the author of sin.

Says WHO?!

Many are 'blindly' led to see that the deception of 'the serpent' transpired much much later than it actually transpired.

All sin is a process and progression of THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED.

How then did that process and progression work? Jesus advised us clearly 'how' this comes about. A warning in advance...if you cannot connect the LOGIC DOTS here you too have already been 'stolen from:'

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Sooo...follow the little bouncing ball here.

The Words of Gods Blessings were sown 'in Adam' when God said be fruitful, multiply etc. etc.

THEN what happened? Yeah...SATAN entered the heart of ADAM immediately. How do we know immediately? Because JESUS SAID SO!

So, phase 2. God delivers the LAW to Adam. WHY? Because ADAM already had THE LAWLESS ONE, SATAN entered into his heart. Paul told us that the LAW is for THE LAWLESS. Adam was Gods child. There is no 'cause' to call ADAM and ADAM ALONE lawless 'because' when we do so we also make GOD The Father of THE LAWLESS and this simply does not make sense.

God MADE the flesh and mind of ADAM subject to the ENTRANCE of the deceiver. Adam was more than likely just like YOU AND I. We simply have no PERCEPTION whatsoever of the reality of the entrance of the thief.

So the thief enters. Adam now contains within his flesh/mind the lawless one, SATAN because Gods Words were sown IN Adam.

Then Adam gets 'the law.'

Then we get the 'word' of violation of the command in Eve because she MIS SPOKE the command of God adding the words 'not touch it' when God didn't say that.

And FINALLY we get the actual physical disobedience to the command at the time of 'eating.' This was actually the FINAL STAGE of SIN...the external action.

Now why anyone in their right mind would ignore all these 'facts' is a sign of the entrance of SATAN into them as well.

And what does 'SATAN' do? He accuses our fellow man. And what do YOU DO? You too do EXACTLY WHAT SATAN DOES and in fact WHO is it then in YOUR FLESH/MIND that 'does that?'

Do the math if you can or are allowed to. You may be more of a slave than you realize.

Paul told us SINS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST MANKIND. 2 Cor. 5:19. If you don't get this you are already MARKED to be 'in error.' The real mark misser is IN YOUR HEART.

You have been SCAMMED by the master scammer, the DEVIL.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Benoni]

Says WHO?!

Many are 'blindly' led to see that the deception of 'the serpent' transpired much much later than it actually transpired.

All sin is a process and progression of THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED.

How then did that process and progression work? Jesus advised us clearly 'how' this comes about. A warning in advance...if you cannot connect the LOGIC DOTS here you too have already been 'stolen from:'

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Sooo...follow the little bouncing ball here.

The Words of Gods Blessings were sown 'in Adam' when God said be fruitful, multiply etc. etc.

THEN what happened? Yeah...SATAN entered the heart of ADAM immediately. How do we know immediately? Because JESUS SAID SO!

So, phase 2. God delivers the LAW to Adam. WHY? Because ADAM already had THE LAWLESS ONE, SATAN entered into his heart. Paul told us that the LAW is for THE LAWLESS. Adam was Gods child. There is no 'cause' to call ADAM and ADAM ALONE lawless 'because' when we do so we also make GOD The Father of THE LAWLESS and this simply does not make sense.

God MADE the flesh and mind of ADAM subject to the ENTRANCE of the deceiver. Adam was more than likely just like YOU AND I. We simply have no PERCEPTION whatsoever of the reality of the entrance of the thief.

So the thief enters. Adam now contains within his flesh/mind the lawless one, SATAN because Gods Words were sown IN Adam.

Then Adam gets 'the law.'

Then we get the 'word' of violation of the command in Eve because she MIS SPOKE the command of God adding the words 'not touch it' when God didn't say that.

And FINALLY we get the actual physical disobedience to the command at the time of 'eating.' This was actually the FINAL STAGE of SIN...the external action.

Now why anyone in their right mind would ignore all these 'facts' is a sign of the entrance of SATAN into them as well.

And what does 'SATAN' do? He accuses our fellow man. And what do YOU DO? You too do EXACTLY WHAT SATAN DOES and in fact WHO is it then in YOUR FLESH/MIND that 'does that?'

Do the math if you can or are allowed to. You may be more of a slave than you realize.

Paul told us SINS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST MANKIND. 2 Cor. 5:19. If you don't get this you are already MARKED to be 'in error.' The real mark misser is IN YOUR HEART.

You have been SCAMMED by the master scammer, the DEVIL.

enjoy!

squint

Amen.....

 

[msortwell]

If Man had not fallen, the whole of the creation would have been corrupt in that the word of God would have been made void. Christ was ordained as the saviour of the world before the world began. Could it have been any other way?

But you are positing that which could not be. What God determined would happen - ordained to happen - would certainly come to pass.

Clearly, God did ordain that there would be evil, and by that I mean moral evil - wickedness. But did God CAUSE any free moral agent to perpetrate evil - did God cause any being to sin? I believe the answer is no.

 

[msortwell]

Many are 'blindly' led to see that the deception of 'the serpent' transpired much much later than it actually transpired.

All sin is a process and progression of THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED.

I see what you mean. What you say here is ture. However, despite the smattering of truth that you include in your post, the conclusions that you draw from that truth involve rank error.

God MADE the flesh and mind of ADAM subject to the ENTRANCE of the deceiver. Adam was more than likely just like YOU AND I. We simply have no PERCEPTION whatsoever of the reality of the entrance of the thief.

Not SUBJECT to the entrance of the deceiver. Rather, he was created susceptible to that influence. He was not victimized by Satan. Adam was not deceived.

The original thought - the lust - was Adam's. Satan needed only to convince Adam to do that which he already wanted to do. It was his sin, the guilt for which we share in.

Jas 1:13-15
“13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” (AV)

And for that transgression Adam, and his descendents are judged.

Paul told us SINS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST MANKIND. 2 Cor. 5:19. If you don't get this you are already MARKED to be 'in error.' The real mark misser is IN YOUR HEART.

Again . . . for Adam's transgression Adam and his descendents are judged.

Nu 14:18
“The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” (AV )

Your interpretation of 2 Cor 5:19, ignores the near context of the chapter and the broader context of Scripture. Paul's reference to "the world" in the verse under consideration speaks to the fact that no peoples of the world are excluded from God's grace. It does not teach universal redemption.

 

[squint]

I see what you mean. What you say here is ture. However, despite the smattering of truth that you include in your post, the conclusions that you draw from that truth involve rank error.

Whether you agree or not is quite irrelevant. Jesus told us all that where the Word is sown SATAN ENTERS. It may be a rather disgusting thought, but this remains a fact.

Not SUBJECT to the entrance of the deceiver. Rather, he was created susceptible to that influence. He was not victimized by Satan. Adam was not deceived.

Hmmm? Not subject to the entrance of the deceiver? The facts that Jesus told us will not be changing until the devil is put away permanently.

The original thought - the lust - was Adam's. Satan needed only to convince Adam to do that which he already wanted to do. It was his sin, the guilt for which we share in.

Look, the essence of the fact is that SIN entered Adam 'showing' that to be something entirely DIFFERENT than Adam. All sin is intimately LINKED to the DEVIL in 1 John 3:8. Now, not many 'believers' are going to like this, but the DEVIL is involved with their EVERY sin.

Jas 1:13-15
“13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” (AV)

And for that transgression Adam, and his descendents are judged.

Sorry, sins are NOT COUNTED against mankind per 2 Cor. 5:19.

You and I and all men DO have particular sins that we carry in the flesh and as such these are OURS to bear. Our particular 'burdens.' And we all carry these particular things to our own respective crosses. This does NOT make the sin indwelling us the SAME AS that indwelling sin. Paul DISassociated himself with the sin indwelling his own flesh in Romans 7:17-21 terming it NO LONGER I twice.

Again . . . for Adam's transgression Adam and his descendents are judged.

All sin has been officially judged and condemned. The workers of same are only awaiting final execution.

Nu 14:18
“The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” (AV )

Your interpretation of 2 Cor 5:19, ignores the near context of the chapter and the broader context of Scripture. Paul's reference to "the world" in the verse under consideration speaks to the fact that no peoples of the world are excluded from God's grace. It does not teach universal redemption.

My interpretation? I can certainly read that sins are not counted against mankind and that doesn't require ONE WHIT of 'my interpretation.' Read it for what it is. All mankind shall be SAVED. All DEVIL with them shall be utterly destroyed in the infamous Lake of Fire. You got a problem with that? WHY? You might be thankful that The Saviour of the world is actually SUCCESSFUL. And if you're NOT I'll chalk it up to the DEVIL....

go figure...

enjoy!

squint

 

[Hismessenger]

Msortwell,

I think that in order to define evil we must first take a look at what sin is. What most perceive is that sin is lying, stealing, adultery, disobedience and such and they are all sin. But what is it that makes them sin? The fact that they go against God's will. So with that in mind, you said that God never caused anyone to sin. But If you look at the story of Pharaoh, it was God's will for him to let the people go. But when he did let them go, God caused Pharaoh to go against his will and follow after the people. His will was to free the people but yet he cause Pharaoh to sin against his will. You have to
sit and ponder this in order for it to sink in.
God had purpose for Pharaoh's disobedience so he made him to go against His will to free the people, in essence to sin.

hismessenger
t

 

[msortwell]

I think that in order to define evil we must first take a look at what sin is . . .

Not at all. If you are going down the path you propose, then you have already ARBITRARILY rejected all of the possible defintion of 'evil' and ra'. Webster's 1828 Dictionary tells us that "evil" can mean calamity or wickedness (i.e. moral evil). Strong's Exhaustive Concordance tells us that ra' has the same variability in its meaning. Therfore, to move the discussion immediately to sin is to reject the possibility that the verses that indicate that God created "evil" (translated from ra') indicate nothing more than that God brings calamity when it suits Him.

If you are rejecting such a possibility, you should offer some basis upon which you do so. Otherwise your position is formulated based, at least in part, upon verses that could teach something profoundly different from what you interpret them to mean.

Let's go back to the verse that others holding views similar to yours (and perhaps it was you) brought forward to drive home the point that God created evil - presumably meaning MORAL evil (i.e. wickedness).

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isa 45:7 AV)

It is clear from this verse that God's Word attests to the fact that God created evil. But the verse DOES NOT identify what is meant by "evil." Is it referring to calamity or moral evil. Either meaning would be an appropriate application of the definitions from Webster's or Strong's. Therefore, this verse alone does not contribute to the argument about whether or not God creates moral evil.

Therefore, so as not to get ahead of ourselves . . . Is it your contention that God created moral evil?

If you answer is "yes," please direct our attention to text that makes it clear that God did so. Remember that seemingly clear text (like Isaiah 45:7) cannot serve as your proof text because it uses a non-specific term (ra' / evil). Please direct our attention to verses that document that God caused a moral evil.

Perhaps the verses related to Pharoah that you allude to above would suffice. I'll have to admit, I didn't examine the related text in detail. But I did look it over quickly and did not immediately see where it says that Pharoah acted against his own will (which seems to be key to your position). Perhaps you would direct my attention to the text that makes the points you are asserting - the text that, in my haste, I overlooked? By the way - God hardening Pharoah's heart does not necessitate undermining Pharoah's own will.

Blessings,

 

[Hismessenger]

Msortwell,

I simply gave the bottom line for all that you brought forth. Sin is to be outside the will of God. It is the key principle to which all things must adhere.

Pharaoh did in fact act agains't His will. When His son died, He was totally through with Israel.

Exd 12:31 Then he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, "Rise, go out from among my people, both you and the children of Israel. And go, serve the LORD as you have said.

But God had another purpose for him and caused Him to choose to follow after Israel. This is documented in the text so I won't go into it.

Bottom line is Pharaoh was outside of God's will when he chose not follow after Israel but in God's Devine will and purpose when he chose to follow after the ones he had just told to get out from among His people.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

Msortwell,

I simply gave the bottom line for all that you brought forth. Sin is to be outside the will of God. It is the key principle to which all things must adhere.

Pharaoh did in fact act agains't His will. When His son died, He was totally through with Israel.

But God had another purpose for him and caused Him to choose to follow after Israel. This is documented in the text so I won't go into it.

Bottom line is Pharaoh was outside of God's will when he chose not follow after Israel but in God's Devine will and purpose when he chose to follow after the ones he had just told to get out from among His people.

So . . . Pharaoh was in sin (outside of God's will) when he had opted to allow Israel to go free. But it was a righteous act on Pharaoh's part to pursue Israel (because that was God's will)?

 

[Hismessenger]

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. In essence what you have said is the truth except that he was outside of God's will when he opted to allow Israel to go free. That was what God was doing, freeing the people but he wanted to make an example of Pharaoh and for Him to allow the people to go free was not in the will of God by His (Pharaoh's) hand but by God's hand.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. In essence what you have said is the truth except that he was outside of God's will when he opted to allow Israel to go free. That was what God was doing, freeing the people but he wanted to make an example of Pharaoh and for Him to allow the people to go free was not in the will of God by His (Pharaoh's) hand but by God's hand.

I am sorry, but no. Sin is not anything as challenging to discern as "being outside of God's will." Rather,

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1Jo 3:4 AV)

“13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” (Ro 5:13-14 AV)

 

[Hismessenger]

Sin is not anything as challenging to discern as "being outside of God's will

The scriptures speak.

Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,

Lev 4:13 'Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [something against] any of the commandments of the LORD [in anything] which should not be done, and are guilty;

Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting.

Now the sin has become known. How do you react to what has been revealed. It isn't as we think but what the word says which we must believe and trust that God knows what He's doing as well as what we're doing in His creation.
This is the way to eternal salvation.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

The scriptures speak.

Now the sin has become known. How do you react to what has been revealed. It isn't as we think but what the word says which we must believe and trust that God knows what He's doing as well as what we're doing in His creation.
This is the way to eternal salvation.

What is the sin that you appear to be referring to which has, "become known."

 

[Hismessenger]

Being outside of God's will. Christ always prayed for the will of the father and so should we. The church has fallen prey to self idolatry, I am in Christ thus I am deserving what I ask for myself with out recognizing that we are created for His purpose and this is what we should be asking for. The rest will follow.

Many can't see this sin even when it is exposed to them. Now it has been made known. One of many.

hismesswnger

 

[msortwell]

Being outside of God's will. Christ always prayed for the will of the father and so should we. The church has fallen prey to self idolatry, I am in Christ thus I am deserving what I ask for myself with out recognizing that we are created for His purpose and this is what we should be asking for. The rest will follow.

Many can't see this sin even when it is exposed to them. Now it has been made known. One of many.

Two questions . . .

What do you mean by your being "deserving" of 'what you ask for yourself'?

Clearly the church routinely says the words in its prayers, "Thy will be done, on earth . . ." However, you must then be referring to something beyond the subject of its prayers. Would you elaborate?

 

[Hismessenger]

I'm a kings kid so I deserve all that I ask for myself.

enough said.

hismessenger

 

[msortwell]

I'm a kings kid so I deserve all that I ask for myself.

enough said.

Sorry, but no. Although we are joint heirs with Christ, this is by grace. It falls far short of our "deserving" anything good.

Rather . . .

“6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.” (Lu 17:6-10 AV)


Blessings

 

[Hismessenger]

Msortwell,

you understand the point given. Blessings to you also.

hismessenger

 

[SumMer87]

just saw this thread, and all i have to say is, you first (WHEN MAKING YOUR WAY GENERIC, JUMPING-TO-CONCLUSION CLAIM) need to understand what the concepts of "GOOD" and "EVIL" actually are.

GOOD is what God has made. In the beginning, ALL was "GOOD." There was no sin in the world.
EVIL is in simple terms, ALL that is VOID of GOOD.
GOD creates EVERYTHING, EVIL is not a THING..............it EXISTS, yes, but its existence is simply not GOOD.
The devil/satan/the enemy is the most EVIL because he is VOID of all of Goodness there is from GOD. he is the ABSENCE of GOOD.