GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Strong in Him]

I said I'd get back to this, but I don't think there's any more I can say.
I cannot believe in a God whose whole motive for creating man was to make sure that he sinned and would therefore one day need a Saviour.

God is love and full of Grace. The Gospel is that he gave us freewill about obeying him or not; a choice between life and death. We chose to go our own way without him - to say "thanks for creating us, but we'll do it on our own from now on." We deserved spiritual death, eternal separation from him, because that is what we chose." Some people still think they can do it on their own and get to heaven by their own efforts.
But because the debt for our sin was too great to pay, the sacrifice was too great, and because God loves us soooo much - he paid the price himself. THIS is love, that we could not save or help ourselves but God did.

There is no Scripture which says that God created evil - and especially not that it was a deliberate act because he wanted to be able to send his Son to endure a painful death and rescue us from something which was his doing in the first place. What father would plan and allow for his son to be tortured and killed to overcome something which was his idea? Jesus took the rap for US, not his Father.

 

[Hismessenger]

Why, throughout the entire OT, would God have been angry with people for not keeping his covenant and sinning, if he knew that he had made them to sin? That they had no choice and the existence of sin in the world was all his fault? These people had only done what God made them do - so why would he have sent plagues, wars and allowed some of them to die.

Paul addressed this very statement if you look in His epistles. Why do you find fault when there is none. Only God's Plan running as He planned. We find fault without knowing the why of it. Lean not to your own understanding.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

The angels were created as part of the creation just like heaven and hell. Yes God had Glory but we are created to worship him and to praise Him to his glory .

Yes and Adam and Eve praised and worshipped him before they fell. Had they not sinned, their children would have praised and worshipped him, and when we turn to him, accept what Jesus did for us and receive eternal lfe, then we will truly be free to do what we were created to do. What's more, we will have chosen to do it. Love , praise and worship which are freely given are true love, praise and worship, and all the more precious to God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul addressed this very statement if you look in His epistles. Why do you find fault when there is none. Only God's Plan running as He planned. We find fault without knowing the why of it. Lean not to your own understanding.

I'm not finding fault, I'm saying that I do not believe that God created man, said, "and now I HAVE to make him sin just so that I can put myself through years of pain but look good when I rescue him." That is not love, and there is nothing in Scripture to support such a view.

Like I said, it's almost like someone who is suffering from Muchaussen's by proxy - it is not love, it is manipulating someone so that you can later get attention by playing the good guy and coming to their aid.
Not the God I worship or who is revealed in the Bible.

 

[Hismessenger]

KJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

© Info: - King James Version 1769 Info

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NKJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

© Info: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

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NLT - Isa 45:7 - I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

© Info: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

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NIV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

© Info: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

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- Isa 45:7 -
ESV - Isa 45:7 - “I form light and create darkness,IMakeWell-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Info: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

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NASB - Isa 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

© Info: - New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

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RSV - Isa 45:7 - I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

© Info: - Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

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ASV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

© Info: - American Standard Version 1901 Info

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YNG - Isa 45:7 - Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

© Info: - Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

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DBY - Isa 45:7 - forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

© Info: - J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

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WEB - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

© Info: - Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

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HNV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Here are many translations and they all say the same thing not in the same exact words but if you look up the definition of evil you will find all the words used to describe it in these translation. So who do you believe, Your own understanding or the word. Evil is the thing of which disasters, calamities, woe, good times and bad are brought forth.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

Here are many translations and they all say the same thing not in the same exact words but if you look up the definition of evil you will find all the words used to describe it in these translation. So who do you believe, Your own understanding or the word. Evil is the thing of which disasters, calamities, woe, good times and bad are brought forth.

The Lord does often allow bad things to happen to us - maybe there's a reason or maybe we'll never understand why.
In the OT he sometimes used pagan countries to invade Israel and engage them in battle. The people would have seen these as being evil times; the prophets tell us that God allowed it to chastise his people for breaking the covenant. In the OT, people believed that all good and all evil came from God, and even in the NT they still believed that sickness was a punishment for sin.

All this is different from saying that God created evil and made man sin just so that he could later rescue him and get glory for himself, which is what you said earlier.

The word also says that God is love, faithful, compassionate, merciful, slow to anger - and that if a human father would not give bad things to his children, like a snake instead of a fish, then how could God? So what are you going to believe? Either the Bible contradicts itself or people in the OT's understanding of God was different. God is the same as he always has been. Either we believe that and try to reconcile the two different pictures of God that the Old and New Testaments seem to give; or we don't, and say that there was an OT God and a NT God.

Your choice, but I know what I believe.

 

[Hismessenger]

What is happening is that the religious world is trying to fit God into the religious box.
Because they cannot understand the why of what God has created they say that it can't be of God. But I ask you one definitive question.

If God were to end the creation right now what would there be that would still exist. Would the heavens and hell still be here. Would Good and evil still be here. Good would be, but there would be no evil. In understanding this fact, how do you reconcile your understanding to say that God did not create evil for His purpose.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

I said that He rescued man before man was created which says that there was a plan going forth before man ever had A THOUGHT.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

What is happening is that the religious world is trying to fit God into the religious box.
Because they cannot understand the why of what God has created they say that it can't be of God. But I ask you one definitive question.

If God were to end the creation right now what would there be that would still exist. Would the heavens and hell still be here. Would Good and evil still be here. Good would be, but there would be no evil. In understanding this fact, how do you reconcile your understanding to say that God did not create evil for His purpose?

Because to create something you first have to have the idea of it, and then bring it in to being.

God is love. here's what 1 Cor 13 says about love:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

How could God, who is not self-seeking, create man, MAKE him sin and then rescue him just so that he would look good and get praise from men?
How could God, who does not delight in evil, think up the idea of evil and then create it?
How could God, who always protects, create sin, make men sin and then punish or kill them for doing what he made them do?

God is pure and holy. This means that he cannot tolerate sin - sinners cannot come into his presence without having made some sacrifice or having been cleansed in some way. So how could he have created what he cannot bear?
People say that God can do anything - the one thing he cannot do is go against his own nature. It's impossible. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Beelzebub (the devil), Jesus said, "how could that be? How can a house that is divided against itself still stand?" Why would the devil have given Jesus power to drive out other fallen angels? Similarly, why would God, who by your reckoning created evil, then send his Son to earth to die an agonising death in order to defeat evil and overcome the sin he had created?

If someone asked you to do something really wicked/outrageous/illegal/hurtful, I'm quite sure you'd respond by saying, "no, that's not in my nature, I'm not like that." If you can conceive of something being against your nature, why can't you conceive of it being against God's?

If the world were to end right now and Jesus return again, then we would be taken to be with him forever and the world eventually destroyed. How does the destruction of the world prove that God created evil for that purpose? It is mankind that sinned and chose evil. God gave us a choice between accepting him or not, living his way or going our own. He didn't have to create evil, both men and angels found it for themselves when they decided to disobey God and go their own way - when they decided they could do a better job of running either the world or their own lives than the One who made both.

But as you so rightly said, God will not share his glory with another, he will not let men have their own way forever and will not let evil go unpunished. He is the judge. He judges people's hearts and punishes people for the evil they do. How could he do this if he created it in the first place?

 

[Strong in Him]

I said that He rescued man before man was created which says that there was a plan going forth before man ever had A THOUGHT.

He provided a Saviour before the sin was even committed, but Adam and Eve did not need to be rescued before they had sinned. They were driven out of paradise after they had disobeyed God - not before.

God appointed a Saviour before the sin had been committed because he knew what we would choose; he knew we would sin and be unable to keep his law and rescue ourselves. Nothing takes him by surprise. When Adam and Eve disobeyed, God didn't go into panic mode and think "oh dear, what's my plan B? How do I solve this?" Even when he sent the flood to wipe out all wickedness, he still knew what would happen.

God saw the whole thing - the creation of the world, sin, salvation and the final destruction of the world, before he began to create any of it.

 

[Hismessenger]

So how does a perfect God allow imperfection to exist in His creation. That makes less sense than what you are trying to refute. IF and He did know, why did He allow it? That is the question which we will never know until the day of redemption. I for one will not attempt to say what God didn't do or does for He is the one controlling. Not us.

There is only one God and He answers to no man.

hismessenger

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
-Amos 3:6b

 

[Strong in Him]

So how does a perfect God allow imperfection to exist in His creation.

I don't know for sure, but I would say that it's because he is love, and loves us.

God created Adam and Eve, they turned away from him - basically said, "thanks but no thanks, we don't need to listen to you."
He could have destroyed them there and then, before they'd begun to have children, but he didn't. If he had, they'd have died in their sin, spiritually seperated from God with no chance of repentance. God wasn't pleased with them, and drove them out of paradise, but they still had a chance to repent and turn back to him.

Throughout the OT the Jews disobeyed God, followed evil and broke his covenant. God gave them opportunities to repent and turn back to him, and some of them did for a while. But those who continuously rebelled were punished. The nation had many, many opportunities to turn back to God. He did not destroy them all the very moment they began to sin, he gave them many chances.

And it's the same with us; God does not destroy people the moment they reject Jesus, or sin. He gives people a chance to repent, come to him and accept what he did for them in Jesus. And if someone refuses, he keeps trying to reach them. Peter said that God is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish but eveyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:19) There will come a point when that person will die - everyone does. And if they have still refused to choose life and Jesus, God honours that choice. But that doesn't mean he wanted that person to go to hell. (And that's another thing, people DO go to hell. If God had created evil and MADE people sin just so he could rescue them from it and get glory for himself, wouldn't he make sure that everyone received Jesus and became Christians? Otherwise his plan backfired.)

To be continued.

 

[Strong in Him]

Continued

IF and He did know, why did He allow it? That is the question which we will never know until the day of redemption.

That's true, we may never really know. But I would guess it may be because God wanted us, his creation, to love and worship him by choice, not because we were perfect people in a perfect world with no other option.

He could have made us robots; people who worshipped him because we were programmed to, or because he gave us everything and made it difficult for us not to. Remember Job? God told the devil that Job was his righteous servant, and the devil replied, "of course he is, you've given him everything, he's got no reason not to worship you. Try taking everything away from him and see what happens." (Job 1:8-11). Job did suffer greatly for a while but chose to remain faithful to God, even though he had many questions, and was eventually restored and rewarded for it.

When Moses came down Mount Sinai to find the Israelites had made a golden calf, he told them to choose who they were going to serve. Joshua said the same thing, as did Elijah and many of the prophets. Jesus invited people to follow him; he didn't force or make them. God wants people to choose him, to accept his love and follow him because they want to.
Sometimes, my nephews send me 'thank you' cards or letters. It's nice, but I suspect they do so only because they are prompted by their mothers. It's far nicer to receive a note from them completely out of the blue, just because they feel like writing. (Doesn't often happen.)

God wants us to love him, but he will not force anyone, and is willing to take the risk that some will reject him.

I for one will not attempt to say what God didn't do or does for He is the one controlling. Not us.

I'm not speaking for God because I understand his mind or have inside information. I've said what I've said because I believe this is consistent with the nature of God as revealed by him in his word.
I keep coming back, again and again, to the words which Jesus spoke;
"if you then, though you are evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?" (Matthew 7:11). In the same way, if imperfect, human parents love their children enough to give them their freedom, choose their own values (when old enough), partners, careers etc and do not attempt to force them or control what they do; how much more will our perfect heavenly Father do this for us?

God doesn't control us, that's the point.

 

[Strong in Him]

Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
-Amos 3:6b

In OT times they believed that everything - good and evil - came from God.
This is not what James says in his letter:
"every good and perfect gift is from above," (James 1:17)
Evil is neither good nor perfect.

 

[Hismessenger]

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

God is in control. There are many times when God has decreed something and what is the outcome of it. Man will make a "Choice" that brings about what God has ordained to be. Need some examples. I just gave you one with Nebuchadnezzer. How about Pharoah. And then there is Jonah. And then there is Elijah and then.............. Need I go on. Our choices are to the fulfillment of God's devine will. Who then is in control? Man or God.

hismessenger

 

[aidan55]

I am not generally one for this kind of impossible argument, but I have been thinking about this a little recently. Sin is not the existence of something, but the absence of God, as He alone is righteousness. God didn't create darkness, he created light, but in differing quantities. Sin seems to merely be choosing to accept one's own righteousness over God. Not something God would have had to create, and can easily be present in a perfect creature with a free will made in the image of God. Man didn't choose evil to be evil, he just chose himself without understanding the consequences of that decision. God made everything good, including man. He was perfect, an chose to be his own righteousness. Eating from the tree wasn't evil because it was an inherently evil act, it was expected of man to do that (as made obvious by the plan of redemption) but is a result of choosing one's own righteousness over God. Now we see the truly evil consequences of our seemingly okay acts and treat evil as if it were a substance in and of itself that God had to have made, but that seems to be fallacious reasoning. It wasn't the eating of the fruit that was evil, it was the choosing of one's own righteousness over God.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

In OT times they believed that everything - good and evil - came from God.
This is not what James says in his letter:
"every good and perfect gift is from above," (James 1:17)
Evil is neither good nor perfect.

A clarifying question:

You're saying Amos was wrong?

 

[icamewithasword]

Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
-Amos 3:6b

So that I can understand...
By quoting this small part of Amos, are you saying that disaster coming to a city is evil, and that the Lord did it?
I'm a bit curious, because the OP was saying God created evil....

 

[Hismessenger]

Aidan55,

What you have said in essence is correct. When we are outside of God's will, we are in sin. It doesn't matter if we are doing a good thing or bad thing if it isn't what God had purposed for us to do, it is sin. This is why prayer is so important. So that we can be led in the way of the Father to complete His will. Not asking of ourselves but asking of God for His will in the earth{us}.

hismessenger