GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

So that I can understand...
By quoting this small part of Amos, are you saying that disaster coming to a city is evil, and that the Lord did it?
I'm a bit curious, because the OP was saying God created evil....

If God brings disaster isn't that evil?

Not saying God is evil. Whatever He does is right and good. It may be that the city deserves evil to be brought upon it.

And this is the point.

No one is saying that God arbitrarily works evil, but He does visit His wrath upon the wicked.

If the question is whether God "creates" evil, tha answer is no, He does not.

But if the question is whether God ordains the evil done by contingent causes, whether they're people, the weather, geologic changes, etc. and whether there is any purpose to this then the answer must be, in the providence of God, yes.

Because nothing happens beyond the providence and control of God. There are no moral free agents.

If God is Who we say he is, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, immutible, etc. there can be no disconnect between His knowledge of a thing and His ordination or decree of it.

But this does not make Him complicit in our sin or the author or creator of sin and evil. It means that the wickedness done by His creatures is always in the service of His greater Glory and Purpose.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

And, of course, the ultimate illustration of this is the cross.

It was no accident. It happened, as the Apostle says, according to the perfect plan of God.

But there are many others, the evil which befell Job, the treason of Judas, the flood, the sending away of Israel into bondage, the selling of Joseph into slavery, the list goes on.

In each case someone sinned, whether it was Judas, the Romans, Joseph's brethren, the Babylonians.

How can we say that God ordained the ends but not the means in these cases? Especially since in most cases He actually tells us that He brought the thing about?

How can we say that He does not ordain both the ends and the means in any or every case?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

In OT times they believed that everything - good and evil - came from God.
This is not what James says in his letter:
"every good and perfect gift is from above," (James 1:17)
Evil is neither good nor perfect.

There is nothing in that which excludes judgment or wrath or the ordination of wicked means.

The rain falls upon the just and the unjust alike.

Some still believe that everything comes from God.

Woe then unto the wicked though for a season they profit.

But unto us who are in Christ, mercy and peace.

 

[Strong in Him]

God is in control. There are many times when God has decreed something and what is the outcome of it. Man will make a "Choice" that brings about what God has ordained to be. Need some examples. I just gave you one with Nebuchadnezzer. How about Pharoah. And then there is Jonah. And then there is Elijah and then.............. Need I go on. Our choices are to the fulfillment of God's devine will. Who then is in control? Man or God.

God is in control, in the sense that he is in charge and nothing can happen without his knowledge; nothing takes him by surprise.
He does not control us, in the sense that he does not make us do anything or dictate our actions.

When the rich young ruler decided not to follow Jesus, Jesus didn't make him.
When many people stopped following Jesus after he fed 5,000 people, (John 6:66) he didn't block their way so they couldn't leave.
God told Adam not to eat from the tree; he didn't bar his way so that he couldn't, nor did he force feed him the fruit so that he HAD to eat it.
God called Moses to the Promised Land. Moses didn't get to enter it because he sinned, but God didn't make him sin; he chose to.

 

[Strong in Him]

A clarifying question:

You're saying Amos was wrong?

I'm saying that Amos spoke according to his understanding at the time. We all do - it's all we can do.
For centuries people believed the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe, so they would have taught accordingly. In the NT people believed that illness and disability were the result of sin. Hence the disciples question to Jesus in John 9 about the blind man; who sinned, him or his parents?

Besides, I said in an earlier post that sometimes war or disasters happened in the OT which were obviously seen to be bad by the nation of Israel, but were in fact sent by God to chastise or correct his people so that they would repent.

As a general principle though, I don't believe that God sends evil or suffering. The only reason for doing that would be to punish us, and Jesus has already taken that punishment.
He may USE suffering to get a non believers attention; I don't believe he sends it though. The devil does that, he wants to turn people away from God. But God can use anything the devil sends for good. IN all things, God works for the good of those who love him. The devil is the thief who has come to destroy, God rescues us and uses these things for good.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am not generally one for this kind of impossible argument, but I have been thinking about this a little recently. Sin is not the existence of something, but the absence of God, as He alone is righteousness. God didn't create darkness, he created light, but in differing quantities. Sin seems to merely be choosing to accept one's own righteousness over God. Not something God would have had to create, and can easily be present in a perfect creature with a free will made in the image of God. Man didn't choose evil to be evil, he just chose himself without understanding the consequences of that decision. God made everything good, including man. He was perfect, an chose to be his own righteousness. Eating from the tree wasn't evil because it was an inherently evil act, it was expected of man to do that (as made obvious by the plan of redemption) but is a result of choosing one's own righteousness over God. Now we see the truly evil consequences of our seemingly okay acts and treat evil as if it were a substance in and of itself that God had to have made, but that seems to be fallacious reasoning. It wasn't the eating of the fruit that was evil, it was the choosing of one's own righteousness over God.

Sin is falling short of God's standards and glory (Rom 3:23).

But good post.

 

[Strong in Him]

If God brings disaster isn't that evil?

Disasters are evil, but it depends if you believe it was GOD who sent the disaster.

I don't, though I believe he sometimes allows them. This may seem like a fine distinction, but for me it's a question of motive.
God is good, love, holy, compassionate, kind and a loving heavenly Father. We have already seen that every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, (James 1:17), and that if earthly fathers know how to give good things to their children, so does God, (Matt 7:10-11). What father would say to his child, "here is my good and perfect gift for you, I want to give you an earthquake, or a disability?"
Satan sends these things; his motive is to destroy and draw people away from God. God sometimes allows what Satan sends, for reasons of his own.

Not saying God is evil.

Exactly, but the OP states that God created evil. I do not see how anyone can create evil unless they are themselves evil, and God is not evil, he is love, hates evil and cannot tolerate sin. So it's impossible for him to have created it.

But if the question is whether God ordains the evil done by contingent causes, whether they're people, the weather, geologic changes, etc. and whether there is any purpose to this then the answer must be, in the providence of God, yes.

God KNOWS about it - the devil cannot get anything past God, and nothing takes God by surprise. But did he will, appoint and send it - I think not. He SENDS good things to bless us, but ALLOWS bad things sometimes to get our attention/refine us.

If God is Who we say he is, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, immutible, etc. there can be no disconnect between His knowledge of a thing and His ordination or decree of it.

I believe there can. God KNEW about all the killings that have gone on in schools and on the streets. Did he ordain or will that they should happen? Did he whisper in someone's ear that they should get a gun and start slaughtering innocent children? Did he want men to rape girls before killing them, and other vile acts? Heaven forbid! PEOPLE have chosen to do these things - God may even have spoken to them and warned them not to go ahead. They may have been in contact with Christians who tried to warn them of what would happen, or witness to them. Pilate's wife had a dream and told her husband not to have anything to do with Jesus, because she saw that they would all suffer greatly if he did. It didn't stop Pilate.

If the question is whether God "creates" evil, tha answer is no, He does not.

 

[Strong in Him]

And, of course, the ultimate illustration of this is the cross.

Yes, the one time in history when God has willed, planned and brought about the suffering of another person. But note, that person was Jesus, and Jesus was God. God was the judge who set the death penalty and then paid it himself.
God wated the salvation of the world to happen in this way; he knew everything and knew it would be for good. The devil did not know everything. He thought that having Jesus killed would be the end of Jesus and a victory for him.

He intended it for evil; God meant it for good.

 

[chingchang]

Yes, the one time in history when God has willed, planned and brought about the suffering of another person. But note, that person was Jesus, and Jesus was God. God was the judge who set the death penalty and then paid it himself.

Depends on your definition of 'suffering'. God willed, planned and brought about all kinds of horrible things in the OT...including the ordered killing of 'sucklings' (infants). I guess if His army killed those defenseless babies in a 'humane' way there would be no suffering?

Also...how about Job? The Bible tells us that Job was 'righteous' and 'upright'. O.k...so God didn't do those horrible things to Job himself...but he allowed it. And when you are omnicient and omnipotent...then allow those horrible things to happen to someone who loves you...that says something. He might have well just done it himself...it makes no difference to Job I'm sure...

It is very difficult to reconcile the God of the OT with 'God is Love' (from the Apostle John).

Hugs,
CC

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I don't see much in the view that God never sends disaster which corresponds with the Bible.

That being said, it may very well be that your view of the Bible is different than mine, I really do not know.

I haven't been here very long.

But I do confess that I have trouble with the idea that the Old Testament wants correction by the New, or that there is some external hermeneutic necessary to understand the Bible as a whole.

It seems to me that the Bible is consistent from Genesis to maps: We are all sinners. God is serious about sin. God punishes sin. God sometimes uses mediate means to do so.

But I am not saying that each instance of disaster is sent from God as a particular response to a specific wickedness.

E.g. I disagree with those pastors who argued that Katrina was God's answer to the sin of New Orleans.

But hurricanes, war, terrorist attacks, plane crashes, earth quakes, school shootings all happen as a result of sin and are at least a part of its burden. It is difficult to understand that if they are a part of its burden they are, in some sense also its penalty but the conclusion seems obvious to me.

When God removed Adam and Eve from Eden, He cursed them.

Nothing happens outside the will of God.

So all that is left to us is to ask what God's purpose is in all this?

Any view which would obscure the great necessity of repentance and fear I find repugnant.

But that's just me.

For the record the cross is not "the one time in history when God has willed, planned and brought about the suffering of another person". The Bible is full of examples of this. I gave a few. The cross is just the greatest.

But even if it were the only example, it would be sufficient to establish that God is NOT Someone who just "permits" evil.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

It is very difficult to reconcile the God of the OT with 'God is Love' (from the Apostle John).

Hugs,
CC

I couldn't disagree more.

It is very difficult to reconcile the God of the Bible with the god we would enthrone in our broken and sinful hearts though.

 

[icamewithasword]

If God brings disaster isn't that evil?

Not saying God is evil. Whatever He does is right and good. It may be that the city deserves evil to be brought upon it.

And this is the point.

No one is saying that God arbitrarily works evil, but He does visit His wrath upon the wicked.

If the question is whether God "creates" evil, tha answer is no, He does not.

But if the question is whether God ordains the evil done by contingent causes, whether they're people, the weather, geologic changes, etc. and whether there is any purpose to this then the answer must be, in the providence of God, yes.

Because nothing happens beyond the providence and control of God. There are no moral free agents.

If God is Who we say he is, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, immutible, etc. there can be no disconnect between His knowledge of a thing and His ordination or decree of it.

But this does not make Him complicit in our sin or the author or creator of sin and evil. It means that the wickedness done by His creatures is always in the service of His greater Glory and Purpose.

OK..... I understand your point a bit better. I guess I was reading your post a bit differently.
I am new here; so unless scripture or the Holy Spirit opens my heart to something different.....I don't believe that God controls us. I believe God knows how we will decide and what path we will take, as He is timeless. I believe God wants our love and companionship, as He is The Loving Father. How can you get that kind of love from something you control?
How can you be most pleased by a faithful servant, if you're controling the servant? JMO

 

[icamewithasword]

I don't see much in the view that God never sends disaster which corresponds with the Bible.

Using the word "disaster" (commonly thought by man to be a bad thing) in this way infers you're saying God does bad things. I see this point this way... "I live in Sodom and it's being destroyed. What a disaster!"

That being said, it may very well be that your view of the Bible is different than mine, I really do not know.

I think the Holy Spirit talks to all of us the same way. The Lord did say (to wit) that some would understand, and some would not. Matter of point, though.....There can be only ONE way to understand the scripture. It is not a story book to be interpreted differently. I pray for the wisdom to properly understand what I am going to read.

I haven't been here very long.

But I do confess that I have trouble with the idea that the Old Testament wants correction by the New, or that there is some external hermeneutic necessary to understand the Bible as a whole.

It seems to me that the Bible is consistent from Genesis to maps: We are all sinners. God is serious about sin. God punishes sin. God sometimes uses mediate means to do so.

But I am not saying that each instance of disaster is sent from God as a particular response to a specific wickedness.

E.g. I disagree with those pastors who argued that Katrina was God's answer to the sin of New Orleans.

Me too.

But hurricanes, war, terrorist attacks, plane crashes, earth quakes, school shootings all happen as a result of sin and are at least a part of its burden. It is difficult to understand that if they are a part of its burden they are, in some sense also its penalty but the conclusion seems obvious to me.

When God removed Adam and Eve from Eden, He cursed them.

Actually, when speaking to Adam, God cursed the ground....I'm taking it to mean that to Adam; no free meals. He would have to work hard all his days to eat until the day he died and returned to the ground. Eve got painful childbirth. This all sounds like they got off pretty easy for being the ones who brought sin upon man.

Nothing happens outside the will of God.

So all that is left to us is to ask what God's purpose is in all this?

Maybe not the best choice of wording....maybe best not to ask God what his purpose is.....

Any view which would obscure the great necessity of repentance and fear I find repugnant.

But that's just me.

For the record the cross is not "the one time in history when God has willed, planned and brought about the suffering of another person". The Bible is full of examples of this. I gave a few. The cross is just the greatest.

But even if it were the only example, it would be sufficient to establish that God is NOT Someone who just "permits" evil.

Wow...I hope I'm missing your point here. I'm reading-- The death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to establish that God is NOT Someone who just "permits" evil.
This goes TOTALLY against Christianity. The death (crucifixion) of Jesus Christ (Son of God) was THE act of Love and utter GRACE. By sacrificing his own Son, God gave us a doorway back into his good graces. No more punishment for our sins! All we have to do is whole-heartedly repent for our sins and whole-heartedly believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
How can this be seen as evil?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

My point was that although the cross is not in fact the only example of God decreeing and bringing about His purpose by means of the deeds of sinful men, even if it were, it would be sufficient to demonstrate that God does not merely permit evil deeds and sinful acts but positively ordains them.

Peter is quite clear, the crucifixion of Christ came about by the plan and foreordination of God.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

OK..... I understand your point a bit better. I guess I was reading your post a bit differently.
I am new here; so unless scripture or the Holy Spirit opens my heart to something different.....I don't believe that God controls us. I believe God knows how we will decide and what path we will take, as He is timeless. I believe God wants our love and companionship, as He is The Loving Father. How can you get that kind of love from something you control?
How can you be most pleased by a faithful servant, if you're controling the servant? JMO

I don't believe God controls us either.

I believe that we choose what we want.

It's just that without regeneration our "wanter" is broken.

When we have been corrected by the work of Christ in our regeneration and have been made "new creatures" our "wanters" are repaired. We are now able to want what God wants, to love properly, and this is the height of what it means to be human. This is what God made us for.

But before this the only desire of our hearts is evil and that continually and we are at enmity with God as Scripture declares. We were not morally neutral, we were at war with Him. We hated Him and His Law.

We needed a heart transplant. And in Jesus we have that, may He be eternally praised.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Genesis 3:16ff seems to me to speak not only of a curse upon "the ground" but a clear imprecation by God against Adam, Eve and their progeny. It seems to be a matter of semantics to insist that because the word "curse" is used only in connection with the ground and its fruit that the rest is somehow exempt for this categorization.

As well, Paul is quite clear that the fruit of Adam's sin is death, that death came into the world through it, etc. and that death is a curse.

 

[Hismessenger]

Did not God harden Pharoah's heart and cause Him to pursue Israel. Your trying to put your understanding on an infinite God. If that wasn't control then what was it. Did he not tell Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah refused but guess what, you know the answer. Jonah did what God said. If that isn't control then what is? You look at control as a puppet on a string but God doesn't need any strings since it is History written for all to see.

hismessenger

 

[Tzaousios]

Did not God harden Pharoah's heart and cause Him to pursue Israel. Your trying to put your understanding on an infinite God. If that wasn't control then what was it. Did he not tell Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah refused but guess what, you know the answer. Jonah did what God said. If that isn't control then what is? You look at control as a puppet on a string but God doesn't need any strings since it is History written for all to see.

The question about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is whether God hardened his heart even more towards his people since He knew Pharaoh had already chosen to disbelieve and had hardened his heart accordingly. The verses in Exodus show Pharaoh hardening his own heart and God heardening his heart.

In the case of Nineveh, did the king and his subjects cry out for mercy because they heard God's commandment and had a desire for mercy? Did they repent of their own will based on that desire or did God grant that repentance? Was the grace the Ninevites received in that generation of a salvific kind or a general kind?

 

[Strong in Him]

Did not God harden Pharoah's heart and cause Him to pursue Israel. Your trying to put your understanding on an infinite God. If that wasn't control then what was it. Did he not tell Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah refused but guess what, you know the answer. Jonah did what God said. If that isn't control then what is?

I don't know if this was addressed to me, but fwiw, this is my view about it.

1) I don't fully understand what that Scripture means, BUT, I cannot conceive of God saying to himself "I'm going to deliberately make it so Pharoah won't obey what I say, I want to be eventually rid of him, and the best way is to make him a hard hearted, stubborn whatsit who is incapable of hearing my voice."
I know you'd never find those words anywhere in Scripture, but if you're saying that God didn't want Pharoah to be capable of repentance, then that is, in effect, what you're saying. That is so far removed from the Biblical picture of the God who loves his creation, that it's almost like a false god. And it's scary too - if God can harden Pharoah's heart, he could harden mine, or yours. How bad do you have to be to make God so mad that he wants to harden your heart? The fact is, you don't. When we were wicked, godless sinners how did God react to us? He gave us his Son. He spoke to foreigners such as Nebuchadnezzer and urged them to repent, why would he have singled out Pharoah?

2) Jonah still had a choice. He didn't have to ask God for a second chance while he was in the big fish. He had no idea of the reception he would receive from the Ninevites; they might have stoned him to death. He might have thought that if he was going to die for disobeying God, then so be it.

I don't agree that either those things were control. Pharoah and Jonah had choices. True, they could not stand in the way of God's will being done. But consider, God did not have to use either of them to accomplish his will. He could have spoken to Moses and told him to lead the Israelites out of the nation at night, and then prevented Pharoah from reaching them, and he could have appointed someone to go to Ninevah who was guaranteed to obey him first time. He could have controlled Pharoah and Jonah by not giving them a choice.

 

[Hismessenger]

You fail to take into consideration that they made their choices and had to choose differently under the control of God. Pharaoh had let the people go and would not have pursued them had not God intervened for His glory.

The same with Jonah and Jonah died in the belly of the whale when He cried out from sheol for redemption. God had His way. One way or the other, if you are one of God's and you don't fight against Him, you will make the choices pleasing to Him. If you fight then you will suffer the consequence as did Pharaoh and Jonah.

I say this because of these passages related to Jonah;

Isa 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth. /QUOTE]

Jon 2:2 And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, [And] You heard my voice.

Isa 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."