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PURE, PURE!I happen to be going from a Biblical standpoint. God, throught the Bible, is depicted as pure and does not approve of evil.
PURE, PURE!
PURE HOLINESS!!!
How how I love to hear those words from a fellow believer!
Oh how I long for all men everywhere to bow before His Majesty!
I thought the same thing, until i studied the Hebrew and contrasting in verses.KJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Here it is in black & white right from the Bible. It say's I make peace
and create evil. Unless God is lying here, then God creates evil.
It does not get any plainer than that.
Let see what does it say again? Oh Ya..... I create evil.
I have been thinking about this verse since I was a kid. I now know
that God Jehovah Jesus Christ (the same) creates evil. Why? cause
the Bible tells me so.
I thought the same thing, until i studied the Hebrew and contrasting in verses.
Numbers 22:20-22
20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to youthat you shall do. 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then Gods anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
Deuteronomy 32:39
39 Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
1 Samuel 2:6-7
6 The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up
Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?
Psalm 105:25
25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.
Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And He said, Go, and tell this people:
Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.
Isaiah 19:14
14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.
Isaiah 66:4
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
He has shined the Light of Christ upon every man, some refuse to come to Jesus to be cleansed of their sins. This is quite evident in Scripture;Sorry, but your argument is lacking on several points. 1st of all, yes man does have the ability to choose, but left to himself, he will always choose in accordance with his own percieved best interest. Only when God reveals Himself to the sinner through illumination of the Holy Spirit, does the person realize that union with God is in fact the most beneficial thing for him to choose. This is the person who perseveres. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do".
I am not open theist, I am a Christian with a unique perspective on the Godhead, even as you are a Christian with your own unique perspective, yes?Secondly, I take it you are an Open Theist, ie. the future is "open" to all possibilities.
Eternal Life is defined as without begining and without end. Nothing more, nothing less.My questions are these: If God does not know the future, that would theoretically place God within time and subject to a mandatory time sequence of events.
Is He also not bound by His will to remain Righteous and True?He then must be said to be bound by and limited within time.
No, there is no problem, for who can resist His will?But isn't time created? How did God create time if He is within time to start with? How is an eternal God bound by time in your theology? If God cannot see the end from the beginning, we have a big problem with the Book of Revelation, don't we???!!!
I do not know how this open theism deals with anything, all I know is that I commit my cause to Jesus and He gives me answers that I need [not necessarily the ones I require]. I don't know everything, nor do I presume to, but this I know, Jesus became responsable for me. He bore my sins and He set me free.Finally, you stated earlier that God permits evil to take place, but if God can stop it when it does occur, does not God retain an ultimate responsiblity for the moral evil presently occuring? How does open theism deal with this moral dilemma?
There you have it;If I may, can I ask you to look at some verses and honestly tell me how they fit into your open theist thought:
Is 46: 9remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
It goes without saying, and indeed is witnessed by further Scripture study;Prv 16: 33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
I am not open theist, I am a Christian with a unique perspective on the Godhead, even as you are a Christian with your own unique perspective, yes?
Me, I believe God gives us each a unique perspective soley for the purpose of His Glory. For in not coming together on theological issues, but rather, on Christ, we come soley on the good ground, and not that of presuppositional theories of men, but the foundation of God.
I believe our Lord allows us to see differing aspects of His Glory so that we seek HIM, rather than man.
Zeena said:As to your assumption of me being open theist, no, I am not.
I am a Christian who believes the future is open to all possibilities, as you stated, BUT that God is working all things according to HIS will, even as He testifies in Scripture.
Zeena said:If I chose to sin, being enlightened, is God then responsable for that choice, and thus that sin?
Did He somehow CAUSE me to sin, did He put a stumbling block before my face to block out the Light of Christ?
Or, rather, was He faithful in leading me in the right way, which I refused, being hardened?
Numbers 22:20-22
20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to youthat you shall do. 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then Gods anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
Psalm 105:25
25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.
Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And He said, Go, and tell this people:
Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.
Isaiah 19:14
14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.
Isaiah 66:4
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!
No, He has not given man the ability and the right to become thier own pope and magisterium! For He effectively stands in the way of sinners, to prevent them from harming the helpless. He makes thier cause darkness and sets up barriers in thier own hearts.In other words, God has given every person who can read the Bible for themselves the ability and the right to become their own pope and magisterium?
Who says that God as the author of sin is orthodox?!Why do you think that historical, orthodox theological positions are "presuppositional theories of men" and are therefore useless to professing Christians? It removes the realistic foundation out from under professing orthodox Christians who still struggle as finite beings.
Why, in your eyes, do I need to be cleared of this 'open theism'?How does this clear you of open theism?
Open thiesm, according to wiki [yea, I looked it up] is a belief also that the revelation of Jesus Christ is all said and done, I do not believe thus. For I believe there will come a day when I see Him face to face and am with Him forever.If anything, it is an attempt to get around it without repudiating it entirely. In other words, you are hedging or wanting "to have your cake and eat it too."
THAT's RIGHT!Of course, God is not responsible, in the sense that he is an agent or instrument, for the sin under any circumstance. Human beings are the sinful, finite creatures that carry out their own actions, good and bad.
This is not orthodox.However, as far as God being the efficient cause for everything that happens and using it according to his purpose, that is a different story.
Wikipedia said:Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is a direct consequence of the first.[1]
The philosophical treatment of causality extends over millennia. In the Western philosophical tradition, discussion stretches back at least to Aristotle, and the topic remains a staple in contemporary philosophy. Aristotle distinguished between accidental (cause preceding effect) and essential causality (one event seen in two ways). Aristotle's example of essential causality is a builder building a house. This single event can be analyzed into the builder building (cause) and the house being built (effect).[2][unreliable source?] Aristotle also had a theory that answered the question "why?" 4 different ways. The first was material cause, next was formal cause, then efficient cause, and lastly was final cause. These rules are known as "Aristotle's four causes".[3] [4]
Though cause and effect are typically related to events, candidates include objects, processes, properties, variables, facts, and states of affairs; characterizing the causal relationship can be the subject of much debate.
According to Sowa (2000),[5] up until the twentieth century, three assumptions described by Max Born in 1949 were dominant in the definition of causality:However, according to Sowa (2000), "relativity and quantum mechanics have forced physicists to abandon these assumptions as exact statements of what happens at the most fundamental levels, but they remain valid at the level of human experience."[5]
- "Causality postulates that there are laws by which the occurrence of an entity B of a certain class depends on the occurrence of an entity A of another class, where the word entity means any physical object, phenomenon, situation, or event. A is called the cause, B the effect.
- "Antecedence postulates that the cause must be prior to, or at least simultaneous with, the effect.
- "Contiguity postulates that cause and effect must be in spatial contact or connected by a chain of intermediate things in contact." (Born, 1949, as cited in Sowa, 2000)
In the case of a mis-attribution of a cause to an effect, the event is known as questionable cause.
I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.How do you interpret these passages:
The post, btw, was directed to DArceri
Tzaousios said:In other words, God has given every person who can read the Bible for themselves the ability and the right to become their own pope and magisterium?Zeena said:No, He has not given man the ability and the right to become thier own pope and magisterium! For He effectively stands in the way of sinners, to prevent them from harming the helpless. He makes thier cause darkness and sets up barriers in thier own hearts.
It is not of God to Lord it over anyone, as the pope does, as magisteriums do. As, in fact, many on this thread have done in an attempt to make God the author of sin, so that they might be justified!
Tzaousios said:Why do you think that historical, orthodox theological positions are "presuppositional theories of men" and are therefore useless to professing Christians? It removes the realistic foundation out from under professing orthodox Christians who still struggle as finite beings.Zeena said:Who says that God as the author of sin is orthodox?!
Zeena said:And yes, some [most] of the things taught by traditional orthodox heirchies are presuppositions too. For people would rather follow what they know, rather than what they do not, and God's ways are the unknowable!
Zeena said:Even what I've received and pondered, I could even go so far as to say, what I believe, are presuppositions. But it is the Lord Who leads us in the good path.
Zeena said:When I woke up today the Lord said to me, Behold I make all things new!
I came into this world from a deep sleep and looked for what was made new, and behold, He said EVERYTHING! This inlcludes any beliefs I might have held onto yesterday, for beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is!
Zeena said:For you to believe that is what I meant, when I did not, is error on yours.
You have presupposed me to be something I'm not, and have inflated the words of my beliefs to mean extreme prejudice against those who believe differently than I, which I do not. All that's needful is given us, why do we strive to tack on more than what is given unless we seek our own glory, rather than His?
Zeena said:Why, in your eyes, do I need to be cleared of this 'open theism'?
Zeena said:Open thiesm, according to wiki [yea, I looked it up] is a belief also that the revelation of Jesus Christ is all said and done, I do not believe thus. For I believe there will come a day when I see Him face to face and am with Him forever.
Zeena said:So, according to this wiki, you cannot label me an 'open theist' and even if you did it would not stick, for labels belong to the dimension of the unregenerate, of which I am not. NOW God is doing a new thing, do you not percieve it?
Tzaousios said:However, as far as God being the efficient cause for everything that happens and using it according to his purpose, that is a different story.Zeena said:This is not orthodox.
Zeena said:If you want to come here and spout off your supposed orthodox teachings, expecting me to believe them simply for the reason that you have, and others have, throughout many years, is to ask me to believe in MAN, and not God.
Zeena said:SHOW ME where in Scripture does the Lord thus speak, SO THAT I may believe.
BUT, did the Lord CAUSE this man to lift a hand against his beloved? NEVER! God is NOT the 'efficient cause' of evil!
Genesis 50:20
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
Zeena said:I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.
I will seek Him in regards to these passages.
Zeena said:In the meantime, what does the Lord says about these;
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Numbers 22:20-22
20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to youthat you shall do. 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then Gods anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
Deuteronomy 32:39
39 Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
1 Samuel 2:6-7
6 The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up
Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?
Psalm 105:25
25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.
Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And He said, Go, and tell this people:
Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.
Isaiah 19:14
14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.
Isaiah 66:4
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
If you think that God destines men to hell, then you go right ahead and keep believing that.Your comment about God "making their darkness and setting up barriers in their hearts" seems to contradict things you have said earlier. You appeared to be saying that God could not and would not do such a thing because it would somehow "involve" Him in evil in an unbefitting way.
I quoted Scripture, which was not responded to.My statement about "pope and magisterium" was not a literal reference to the Roman Catholic institutions of the same name. Rather, I used it to describe the method for interpreting Scripture that you are setting up, namely by rejecting any historical precedent or guideline and substituting some subjective revelation or epiphany in its place.
You say as much when you say that God creates evil.Um, where did I say anything about God being "the author of sin"? That is a tired old trope that Calvinist-haters throw at people whom they perceive as being Calvinists or holding a more stringent view of God's sovereignty then they hold. Take off the anti-Calvinist blinders for a second.
I did, at one time, but I lay down my pressupositions as Jesus give me better answers.On this side of heaven, occupying sinful, finite bodies of flesh, ALL human beings approach the Biblical texts with presuppositions whether erroneous or not. The question is, what method does one employ in the attempt to arrive at the truth and how objective is it?
I've quoted plentious Scripture which refutes this erronous teaching of God as the Author [creator] of sin. This I did originally, these are they which have yet to be responded to, which is why I do not respond in kind.While I do agree that God's inner character and ways are absolutely transcendent and unknowable by definition, he has in his grace and mercy given us Scriptural revelation which conveys aspects of himself in our languages and level of understanding through the words of the prophets and God in flesh Jesus Christ. Again, an objective hermeneutic is the key to arriving at the truth.
AMEN!Yes, but as mediated and checked by the authority of Scripture.
Spirit to spirit, is there error in my way?Are you saying that God spoke audibly to you on that morning?
Like I said, and now repeat, if you chose to believe God is capable of unrighteousness, you go right ahead!The comment about "beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is" is a vain attempt at detaching yourself from historically-based, objective statements of belief which you believe are "corrupted" in your own subjective determination. In truth, it is these beliefs which have stigmatized yours, rather than the other way around.
Did you not read the earlier posts?What else do I have to go by other than your words? I read what you had posted and commented on it. There was no presupposition about you on my part because I did not know you or what you believe before I read the post. I think what I posted struck a chord and you just did not like it. So be it then. There was no inflation or prejudice on my part.
Not according to the Scripture quoted earlier, here, how's about post #111, amid the many, in which I quoted Scripture refuting this teaching?Because it is an unbiblical belief.
It is a definative statement, which rarely, if ever, changes.First of all, Wiki is not a reliable source to be used in serious discussion. It can be changed and edited at will by just about anyone and is not subject to critical peer review. Second of all, it is not defined by what you have said above. It has to do with God's revealed attributes, specifically his omnipotence and omniscience, and wrongful limitations thereof.
You are part of a church with man as your head, rather than Christ. Better?"Labels" do not just belong "to the dimension of the unregenerate." Where did you get this idea? If it were not for objective distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy, the heretical issues which faced the early church would not have been identified and stamped out.
As WELL as the Witness of His Spirit no?Of course I can recognize when God is doing a new thing. But this is done in concert with an objective discernment and reading of Scripture.
Have I? Or rather, have you?How are you in the position to tell me what "is not orthodox" since you have rejected one the primary means by which it is discerned?
Yes, you are talking of causality.As for the Wiki blurb you posted, how does that address the theological and Biblical issue which we are presently discussing?
We are not talking about academic or mundane issues of causality for which we need a philosophical framework to work out. Besides, it does not disprove my Biblical assertion that God can be the efficient cause and man the instrumental or secondary cause of sinful acts without God becoming corrupted or sinful himself.
As you did with the passages shown you initially. I'm only playing according to the rules YOU have set forth in precedent.. :/"Spout off?" So I guess you are saying that anything short of agreeing with you and endorsing your own beliefs is unorthodox and should not be posted? That mindset is exactly what I have a problem with because it is subjective on many levels and borders on a theological existentialism.
Also, I do believe the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God. However, I also believe that it was written and compiled by the agency of man in a specific historical context. It was also read and correctly interpreted by the Holy Spirit in a specific historical context. Thus, it does not necessarily follow that it is of man and not of God.
I have showed you plenty of passages from Scripture. What did you do? You ignored them and refused to provide your interpretation or show how they fit into your beliefs.
No, of course not!Oh really? Do you know what God is going to make of this situation? Did God not cause Joseph's brothers to throw him in a pit and lie to their father about his death?
Genesis 46:2Okay, whatever you want to call it. Answers in the night? Please explain this statement.
Then do tell how THESE VERSES fit in with YOUR doctrine?Why are you asking me this? They do not prove that anything I have said is in error and I definitely do not reject them.
A conversation is a two-way street, no?As for the passages I posted, they do point out inconsistencies in the position that you have adopted and outlined in this discussion. Once again, I look forward to what you have to say about them:
Tzaousios said:Your comment about God "making their darkness and setting up barriers in their hearts" seems to contradict things you have said earlier. You appeared to be saying that God could not and would not do such a thing because it would somehow "involve" Him in evil in an unbefitting way.If you think that God destines men to hell, then you go right ahead and keep believing that.
I'm not here to change your mind, nor your heart, merely to state the truth as given me.
Zeena said:I quoted Scripture, which was not responded to.
Zeena said:You say as much when you say that God creates evil.
Tzaousios said:On this side of heaven, occupying sinful, finite bodies of flesh, ALL human beings approach the Biblical texts with presuppositions whether erroneous or not. The question is, what method does one employ in the attempt to arrive at the truth and how objective is it?
Zeena said:I did, at one time, but I lay down my pressupositions as Jesus give me better answers.
Zeena said:I've quoted plentious Scripture which refutes this erronous teaching of God as the Author [creator] of sin. This I did originally, these are they which have yet to be responded to, which is why I do not respond in kind.
Tzaousios said:Are you saying that God spoke audibly to you on that morning?Zeena said:Spirit to spirit, is there error in my way?
Job 33:13-14
Why do you complain to him that he answers none of man's words?
For God does speaknow one way, now another though man may not perceive it.
Zeena said:Like I said, and now repeat, if you chose to believe God is capable of unrighteousness, you go right ahead!
I trust God to prove Himself Gloriously HOLY in your sight.
Zeena said:It is a definative statement, which rarely, if ever, changes.
Tzaousios said:"Labels" do not just belong "to the dimension of the unregenerate." Where did you get this idea? If it were not for objective distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy, the heretical issues which faced the early church would not have been identified and stamped out.
Zeena said:You are part of a church with man as your head, rather than Christ. Better?
Zeena said:As WELL as the Witness of His Spirit no?
Zeena said:Have I? Or rather, have you?
There's only One Truth..
Zeena said:Yes, you are talking of causality.
You are making God out to be the initiating doer of evil!
Zeena said:No, of course not!
Nor did He direct Pharoph into doing evil!
ANSWER the Scripture posted earlier and you will see this is NOT possible.
FAR be it from God to DO iniquity!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth DO RIGHT?
Genesis 50:20
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
Exodus 9:16 / Romans 9:17
16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.
Zeena said:Genesis 46:2
And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.
How's this?
Job 33:15-18
For God does speaknow one way, now another
though man may not perceive it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride, to preserve his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.
Zeena said:A conversation is a two-way street, no?
Zeena said:I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.
I will seek Him in regards to these passages.
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