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GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

Zeena

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Nothing happens by chance. There is no chance.
Everything happens by God, and everything means everything.
This teaching is directly opposed to the Spirit of God, revealed in the Scripture;

Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Without interpreting Scripture in the Light of the Whole of Scripture, ye do err.
 
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bricklayer

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Are you suggesting that God came to know something that he theretofor did not know?
Did he not "see that coming? Did God change?
Do you believe that sin and redemption from sin is some sort of plan B?
Has God's creation "gotten out of hand?

It seems to me that, you would prefer to accept that God does not want what God does not like,
and there is a lot that God does not like.
Therefore God does not get everything He wants constantly.
There is much scripture that seems to support such a subjective view of God.

I am left to believe that, God gets everything He wants constantly,
and there is a lot that God does not like.
Therefore, God wants to reveal what God does not like.

We are not even born yet, as a people. From Adam to the bride of christ, this is but our bloody birth. We, God's elect, will never forget the horror of sin and the hero of Christ. That's where we will start.

There is much scripture to support a sovereign view of God.
The differences brtweeen us is not the scriptures,
it's the presuppositions that we bring to scriptures, and that by providence.
 
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Hismessenger

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Zeena, do you not see that in order for men to choose between good and evil, they both have to exist and if they exist, then God is the author for His purpose.
He doesn't view evil as a threat but rather a tool to refine His creation. He knows that left to our own devices, we would never come to the saving grace that is Christ Jesus, the way, the truth and the light. An awesome God He is for he controls everything that we can think or imagine. Consider this, if God knows the number of Hairs on our heads, think how many people there are that applies to not just now but throughout the creation. We must think beyond this plane for God is Spirit and we must worship in spirit and truth. Not in fear and confusion because of our limited understanding. He make known to us what it is that we need to know so that in the eternal we can be of true service to His kingdom.

hismessenger
 
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bricklayer

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Great post, hismessager.

Think about it. We're not even born yet, as a people.

Everything, ALL OF THIS, from Adam to the bride of Christ,
is just our bloody birth.

Our STARTING POINT will be as a people redeemed from the knowledge of good and EVIL.

It is very important, to God, that we START as a people who never forget
the horror of sin and the hero of Christ.
The knowledge of good and evil.

We will start as a people who will never forget.
A people redeemed with BLOOD.

All of this is just our bloody birth.
 
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UnionJack

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Sorry for late reply I must've unsubscribed to this thread. A while ago i said:
[FONT=&quot]GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evil is the lack of GOOD. Just like how cold is from lack of HEAT. How darkness is from lack of light. You cannot say, turn on the dark please. You can say turn off the lights, in which case you will have darkness. Similiarly, when there is a lack of good (light) there is evil (darkness).[/FONT]

To which you replied:

[FONT=&quot]
Yes, God did not create evil. I never said that He created evil in my post http://www.christianforums.com/t7328646-33/#post53837235 I said free will was a delusion and that God creates peace and calamity and disaster.


Um....I was referring to the title of this thread not your argument.
[/FONT]
 
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Tzaousios

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This teaching is directly opposed to the Spirit of God, revealed in the Scripture;

Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Without interpreting Scripture in the Light of the Whole of Scripture, ye do err.

These verses from Jeremiah do not say that God either does not have ultimate control over all events and everything that transpires within his creation. In fact, they do not even address the subject.

What they do say is God makes clear his prescriptive will to the Israelites, which is that idolatry and specifically the demonic practive of human sacrifice are strictly forbidden according to the covenant.
 
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Zeena

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These verses from Jeremiah do not say that God either does not have ultimate control over all events and everything that transpires within his creation. In fact, they do not even address the subject.

What they do say is God makes clear his prescriptive will to the Israelites, which is that idolatry and specifically the demonic practive of human sacrifice are strictly forbidden according to the covenant.
AND that God never sanctioned their actions. :p

He never preordained that they should walk that way! :wave:

What they did was AGAINST the will of God, and they suffered for it.
 
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Hismessenger

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then he would be unjust and my preaching would be in vain.

That's your understanding, not his and this is the problem. God is God no matter what you think and His judgments are righteous no matter how they look to us because He knows what he's doing and we don't. Let God be God and submit to His authority. You can't say what is and isn't with God or else He is not the God of the creation, you are.

hismessenger
 
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Zeena

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That's your understanding, not his and this is the problem. God is God no matter what you think and His judgments are righteous no matter how they look to us because He knows what he's doing and we don't. Let God be God and submit to His authority. You can't say what is and isn't with God or else He is not the God of the creation, you are.

hismessenger
That's the understanding given me of Scripture, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, brother.

He's already revealed His Character in the Scripture, and by His Son;

Job 34:10
Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

Genesis 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Hebrews 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

His Judgements are Righteous BECAUSE He is Righteous.
I submit to Him because He is WORTHY of my praise, not out of fear of His Sovereignty. :bow:

Many they be who purchase fire insurance..

But God is not mocked;

Psalm 34:8
O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVYcDOXczus

Psalm 118:4
Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEcWkt7rxrg
 
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Zeena

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That's your understanding, not his and this is the problem. God is God no matter what you think and His judgments are righteous no matter how they look to us because He knows what he's doing and we don't. Let God be God and submit to His authority. You can't say what is and isn't with God or else He is not the God of the creation, you are.

hismessenger
I would pose a simple question as pertains to this doctrine.

If the case be, as you state it; "Let God be God and submit to His authority. You can't say what is and isn't with God or else He is not the God of the creation, you are.":

WHY, then, do we have laws instituted to prevent and judge evil actions?
WHY NOT, rather, lead a passive life and allow whatever "the Lord" deems fit?

Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Seems to be you separate the Living God from God Living within you..

He is the same God, no?

Do you commit evil acts under the guise of the Father in the Name of Jesus?

Surely not?
For He is good, no?

Philippians 2:12:13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
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bibleblevr

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of course god made evil! wasn't the devil a created being? could Satan have created himself? of course not!

For the Calvinist out there, didn't God know and plan the effects of Satan's evil even before he was made? could an effect of his design be unknown to him?

for the Armenians, didn't God give the devil free-will and thus create the monster through God's direct actions. and again is God all knowing enough to at least foresee the entrance of evil?

all of these are simple obvious questions which point to the inevitable conclusion that God created evil. no, God does not commit evil acts, he is of course Holy. However whatever he chooses to do is right simply because he does it. Our job is not to pick apart his actions but to except them as right and replicate them in the capacities that are good for us to work within.

There is no way around it, he simply must have, all things owe their existence to God through him all things were made. Furthermore he wants evil to stay, if he didn't want it anymore and yet it is still here then he must be unable to destroy it. But we all agree God is all-powerful, so it must be a lack of will to destroy evil.

On a non-cosmic level we see Jesus breaking the law by healing people on the sabbath, however this is right and good because it accomplishes a greater purpose. I have full confidence that Father God is following a similar pattern. Although it appears contrary to his perfectness to create evil, we must asume that it has a greater purpose, like Jesus breaking the sabbath to heal people and prove himself to be God in the flesh..
 
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Hismessenger

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Seems to be you separate the Living God from God Living within you..

On the contrary, I understand that not only is God living within me but that He is me for it is He which sustains me as I am. With that being said, I yield to His
superior intellect and authority for I am but dust in the wind and He is eternal. What I understand today will be of nought in the years ahead for I won't be here. But He is the great I am able to do whatever He pleases and no one can stay His can or ask what is it that you are doing. Why does he still find fault. He doesn't for it is all going according to His will and purpose regardless of how it looks to us. That is what we must realize and understand and then we will be better off.

hismessenger
 
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Zeena

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*snip*
it is all going according to His will and purpose regardless of how it looks to us.
So then, the next time someone commits an evil act, I want you to repeat that phrase;

"it is all going according to His will and purpose regardless of how it looks to us."

The next time you are privy to an evil act, be it first hand or through various media, I want you to repeat that phrase, and come back here to repeat it! Make that a heinus crime against humanity and come and say such, OK?

Or, is there no such thing as an evil act in your theology?

"It's all good"?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm

TELL US these are good things, so we can know exactly what your theological supposition implies, once and for all!

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Psalm 38:20
They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.
 
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Hismessenger

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Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

Gen 45:6 For these two years [hath] the famine [been] in the land: and yet [there are] five years, in the which [there shall] neither [be] earing nor harvest.

Gen 45:7
And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

Gen 45:8 So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.


There is no evil in His purpose which most can't seem to comprehend, even when it appears to be evil to us. Evil is good for the purpose He sent it forth for. It is not good in and of itself. It is after all a created thing. All things,ALL THINGS, were created by Him and for Him and in Him. Once again, what is there that ALL doesn't cover. To be or not to be that is the question. To be with God eternally because we trust Him without question or to be cast into outer darkness because we could not let God control what we can do nothing about anyway.

hismessenger
 
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optiong

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Genesis 4:6-7 NASB: "The the Lord said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 'If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.'"

Why would God command Cain to master his sin if he couldn't do anything about it? Seems to me Cain had the free will to kill Abel. Along with this and all of the other commands in the Bible, what is the point in making them if we don't get to choose to follow them?

Mark 12:28-31: "And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. 31 "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

He commands us to keep His commandments but many people can't. Why? Because He doesn't let (aka make) them?

2 Peter 3:9 NASB: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."


If He doesn't want any to perish, why does He make them? And, if He wants us all to come to repentance, why would He make us not?

If we don't have free will there is no purpose to life. 'Oh, but it is to show God's glory by making us sin', because we are to learn from it? Well, the learning doesn't have a point because its not really us learning its God learning. But, God already knows what we are going to do, so He can't learn what He already knows.

I won't deny the fact that He knows what we are going to do, but He didn't make us do anything. We choose to do what we do. If our God is truly a god who loves us more than we can begin to imagine, why would He make us do what He hates?
 
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Zeena

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On the contrary, I understand that not only is God living within me but that He is me for it is He which sustains me as I am. With that being said, I yield to His superior intellect and authority for I am but dust in the wind and He is eternal. What I understand today will be of nought in the years ahead for I won't be here. But He is the great I am able to do whatever He pleases and no one can stay His can or ask what is it that you are doing. Why does he still find fault. He doesn't for it is all going according to His will and purpose regardless of how it looks to us. That is what we must realize and understand and then we will be better off.

hismessenger
MeH

That's what Job said.

But little did Job realise that Satan was the one who had touched him! :blush:

The Spiritual Man said:
It is a terrible circumstance that Christians do not know the fact of God’s living in them and the principle of His working in them. They think He wants them to be like pawns on a chessboard that He may maneuver them around as He pleases. They feel they must be absolutely passive, possessing no power to choose or decide, but just to be managed insensibly by God. They forget that when God first created man He made him with a free will. God obviously is not pleased if man wills things other than Himself, but neither is He pleased if man were to obey Him mechanically and unconsciously. He is satisfied when a person wills what He wills, and never wants him to become a will-less person. Many matters must be executed by believers themselves; God will not do these for them. It is taught that we must hand everything over to God and let Him do it instead of us—that we must not lift our hands nor move our feet—that we must be so surrendered to the indwelling Holy Spirit that He can arrange everything in lieu of ourselves—that we must let God move us. We grant there is some truth in such teaching but the error therein mixed is perhaps more potent than is the truth. (We shall speak more on this point in the next chapter.)

A Christian in his ignorance may be deceived by the powers of darkness, may unwittingly tumble into the trap of Satan, and fulfill the conditions for his working. Let us observe the order of this process, for it is highly important: (1) ignorance, (2) deception, (3) passivity, and (4) entrenchment. Ignorance is the primary cause of this process. Satan can deceive because the saint is unfamiliar both with the demand of the Holy Spirit and the principle of satanic working. Were Christians to apprise themselves of how to cooperate with God and what His procedure of working is, they would never accept Satan’s deception. But once deceived, they surmise that for God to live and work through them means for them to remain passive; and so they accept as being from God many supernatural manifestations from evil spirits. The deception grows deeper, finally resulting in an entrenchment of alarming proportions.

Source --> Passivity and Its Dangers - Watchman Nee
 
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Zeena

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Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
Let no man say when he is tempted that he is tempted by God? :confused:

Does this not hold true in this instance as well?

The Lord never placed on the brothers hearts to do this wicked thing, but they did do it, and so God worked around their choice, showing Himself strong on behalf of, not only Joseph, but all the people [most especially Israel] who would die of starvation for the seven years appointed unto blight for their sins, if only for the sin of keeping Joseph in jail [though I do not believe this to be soley the cause, as God further testifies via Scripture], Scripture plainly records;

Genesis 41:9-14
Then spake the chief butler unto Pharaoh, saying, I do remember my faults this day:
Genesis 40:14-15 and 23 said:
But think on me when it shall be well with thee, and shew kindness, I pray thee, unto me, and make mention of me unto Pharaoh, and bring me out of this house: For indeed I was stolen away out of the land of the Hebrews: and here also have I done nothing that they should put me into the dungeon.
...
Yet did not the chief butler remember Joseph, but forgat him.
Pharaoh was wroth with his servants, and put me in ward in the captain of the guard's house, both me and the chief baker: And we dreamed a dream in one night, I and he; we dreamed each man according to the interpretation of his dream.
And there was there with us a young man, an Hebrew, servant to the captain of the guard; and we told him, and he interpreted to us our dreams; to each man according to his dream he did interpret. And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us, so it was; me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged. Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
You see how they each, the cheif butler and Pharoah, repented?

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Genesis 41:41-44
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.

Therefore, do not delude yourself into thinking that God rewards evil intent and actions with good, AS IF evil actions belonged to GOD!

Romans 2:2-8
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

God dispenses Justice retributively, and naught else!

Lamentations 3:31-36
For the LORD will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth. To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the LORD approveth not.

Job 33:11-30
"He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths."
Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters. For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Yes. In spite of the evil actions of his brothers, in spite of the evil actions of the chief butler, God worked it for good, by a Mighty Hand and outstretched Arm, because Joseph loved Him! :D

But let it not be said that it was God's WILL that Joseph was sold into slavery! Let it not be said that God requires evil to do good! Otherwise, He is not omnipotent! No omnipotence could possibly be inferred on any being who requires something to make something.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

He doesn't need evil to accomplish His purposes, but He overules it for the sake of accomplishing the greater good.

Gen 45:5-8
Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
For these two years [hath] the famine [been] in the land: and yet [there are] five years, in the which [there shall] neither [be] earing nor harvest.

And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Amos 6:3-6
Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.

Hebrews 11:
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
 
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