GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

Tzaousios said:

What quote of mine are you referring to? Certainly it is not contained in the one to which you are replying above. I said nothing to the effect that I believe God "destines men to hell." Perhaps you are reading your perception of my theological affiliation into your replies?

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What is the name of this thread?

Tzaousios said:

[emphasis added]
Once again, I will repeat how I believe God is the first cause and not the author: God can be the efficient cause and man the instrumental or secondary cause of sinful acts without God becoming corrupted or sinful himself.

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There you have it, all that denial for what?

For God to be the cause of evil, means that He is evil, for our of the heart the mouth speaks, even as the Lord Jesus has said. A font cannot send forth water both brakish and pure, even as the Apostle Peter stated, in testifying to the truth.

Which viewpiont is indicative of one who refuses to repent of his own sin.
For in labelling God as the author [originator or cause] of sin, you therby forgo your own responsability for it.
And God is now the sinner, and you are now justified [in your own eyes].

Romans 9:20-21
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Sound familiar?

It is now in order to consider the words of Paul, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" (Rom. ix. 21). The thought is partially revealed in Isa. xxix. 16; xlv. 9, and lxiv. 8; but in these passages the prophet seeks to disclose the guilt and extreme folly of denying God's authority as Creator. Hence Paul's illustration is generally referred to Jer. xviii. 6, "O house of Israel, can not I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel."

Unless, we have positive knowledge to the contrary, it is fair to suppose that Paul used this illustration according to its historical meaning. As thus given by Jeremiah what is its legitimate teaching? The prophet is told to go down to the potter's house, where he saw him at work on the wheels. "And the vessel that he made of 'clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Then comes the divine warning, "O house of Israel, can not I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

Now, laying aside all prejudice, let us see if we can find the prophet's meaning. Notice (1) The potter changed his mind: he started to make something but so far forth, failed. Then he made something else. (2) The reason for this change was outside of the potter: he is not represented as changing for some unrevealed, mysterious reason, but the cause for the change is emphatically affirmed, viz., the temper of the clay. (3) This changed temper necessitates the changed purpose, and this is according to the potter's will. Now I do not expect every Calvinist will concede these points, but I challenge him to prove their incorrectness. So far from affording him any ground for his doctrine the passage directly condemns his position. Two important truths are here taught; viz., (a) God's power. He can plant, pluck up, or destroy: (b) This power is used according to the temper of those with whom he has to deal: hence he says through the prophet, "If that nation against whom I pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good wherewith I said I would benefit them." "Let it be noted that this illustration is not used here to show that God makes and moulds the free moral activities of men, even the free action of their will, according to his absolute pleasure, allowing them no more responsibility or activity than the clay has in the potter's hand. This is neither asserted nor implied here. This is not by any means the point of the comparison; but the point is, as we shall soon see, that God can speak concerning a nation to pull it down and destroy it, or to build it up, and instantly the agencies of his providence prove themselves perfectly adequate for this result ..... Note that God does not represent his power as in such a sense arbitrary and sovereign, that it has no respect to the moral state of his creatures. The very opposite of this is true. God shows that he exercises his agency so as to meet their moral state precisely, sparing the penitent and destroying the incorrigibly wicked."

As this is the true teaching of the passage it is more than probable that Paul used it in its historical application, viz., the rejection and acceptance of nations. It is conceded by eminent Calvinists that in the ninth chapter of this Epistle, Paul's primary object is to elucidate how, or for what reason, the Jews as a nation were rejected. Bloomfield says, "Strange some can not or will not see that in all this (comp. Gen. xxv. 23) there is only reference to the election of nations, not of individuals; a point on which all the fathers up to Augustine (a slight authority, owing to his ignorance of the original languages where idioms are concerned) and all the most judicious modern commentators are agreed." Dr. Charles Hodge says, "With the eighth chapter the discussion of the plan of salvation, and its immediate consequences, was brought to a close. The consideration of the calling of the Gentiles, and the rejection of the Jews, commences with the ninth, and extends to the end of the eleventh." Dr. MacKnight says, "Although some passages in this chapter which pious and learned men have understood of the election and reprobation of individuals, are in the foregoing illustration interpreted of the election of nations to be the people of God, and to enjoy the advantage of an external revelation, and of their losing these honorable distinctions, the reader must not, on that account, suppose the author rejects the doctrines of the decree and foreknowledge of God. These doctrines are taught in other passages of Scripture; see Rom. viii. 29." Alford says, "It must also be remembered that, whatever inferences, with regard to God's disposal of individuals may justly lie from the Apostle's arguments, the assertions here made by him are universally spoken with a national reference. Of the eternal salvation or rejection of any individual Jew there is here no question." Dr. Schaff in Lange says, "The doctrine of the predestination of a part of the human race to eternal perdition by no means follows from the statements of these verses, 6-13." Again, "The Apostle is not treating here at all of eternal perdition and eternal blessedness, but of a temporal preference and disregard of nations in the gradual historical development of the plan of redemption, which will finally include all (Chap. xi. 25, 32), and hence the descendants of Esau, who stand figuratively for all the Gentiles."

It is, therefore, reasonably settled that Paul used the illustration of the potter in the same sense as did Jeremiah; but this, instead of proving the Calvinist right, unmistakably condemns him; for beyond all legitimate controversy, the passage teaches that the clay "is a living free agent, the Potter is a wise, impartial divine Reason, and the being made a vessel of honor or dishonor is conditioned upon the voluntary temper and doing of the agent. Salvation and damnation depended upon a momentous pivotal if; the two alternatives of that if were, 'turn from evil' and salvation; or, 'do evil' and destruction." This must be so. Whatever reference this chapter has to eternal salvation must be interpreted according to the primary meaning of the prophet. As God deals with nations according to their temper or disposition, so does he act toward individuals in their eternal acceptance or rejection. To deny this is to affirm that a primary application is of less importance than a secondary. Dr. Howard Crosby is an acceptable minister of the Presbyterian Church. The following is his testimony concerning the meaning of this so-called Calvinistic proof-text. He says, "This text is quoted by many as showing that God arbitrarily makes some men for heaven and others for hell. The whole of God's gospel is thus set aside. He wishes all men to be saved (1. Tim. ii. 4). He does not wish any to perish (II. Pet. iii. 9). God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John iii. 16). He sent his servants to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark xvi. 15). Jesus says to all, 'Come unto Me' (Matt. xi. 28). And yet some would have this one text in Rom. ix. 21 overthrow the whole tenor of the gospel, as above illustrated. Is it not wiser to imagine a false exegesis here?

"Let us see what this text means? The simile of the potter is taken from Jer. xviii. 1-10; and we must go there if we would see the apostle's meaning. In that passage the Lord says that he, as a potter, will cast away the vessel which was marred under his hands and make a new one--that is, he will set aside the Jews and establish a Gentile church. The whole argument of the apostle concern the rejection of the Jews from being the church of God, and has no reference to individual salvation. He shows that God narrowed the church seed in Isaac and in Jacob, and he can now change it again from Israel to the Gentile world; that there was no obligation to keep the line of ordinances in Abraham's seed, and that the conduct of Israel, in rejecting Christ, had made it necessary for God, after much patient endurance (ver. 22) to cast off Israel and form a new church. In the course of the argument he answers the objection that God was unrighteous, by showing (vs. 14-18) that to Moses, who was obedient, he showed mercy, and Pharaoh, who was rebellious, he hardened (by letting him harden himself). He distributes his mercy and his wrath as he will; but his will is interpreted as distinguishing between the obedient and disobedient. The potter is referred to, not as from the first ordaining a man to dishonor, but as devoting a bad man to dishonor. The figure can not be pressed. The vessels, in the making, have a power to resist the potter. The Jews resisted God's grace when he would have made them to honor, and therefore he made them to dishonor. That is all this text teaches. To read it without regarding the apostle's argument in the ninth and tenth chapters, and without regarding Jeremiah's meaning, from whom the allusion is drawn, is to wrest Scripture and make a most horrible and unscriptural doctrine--a doctrine which, logically and imperatively, makes God the author of sin."

The last class of passages to which we will turn our attention is composed of such texts as speak of the non-elect as foreordained to destruction. "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious; but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed" (1. Pet. ii. 7, 8). "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation; ungodly men, turning the grace of our God unto lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4).

The Arminian finds no trouble with these passages. If wicked men will not repent, will not turn to God and live, then, like Judas, they shall go to their own place. God, foreseeing this, unerringly knowing their ultimate choice has eternally rejected, and in this sense, foreordained them to destruction. Dr. Thomas W. Jenkyns' comments on the passage in Peter are admirable. "God exhibits his Son as the foundation of salvation to men. In this character 'he is disallowed of men' --they will not submit to it, but are 'disobedient' to the arrangement. As they will not comply and obey, they stumble and fall and perish, and that according to the appointed order of the provision. Are we from this to infer that they were appointed to disobey and stumble? What! that they were appointed to disallow Christ, and yet be blamed and punished for it? the passage teaches no such thing. It is an 'appointment' of the constitution of providence that whosoever will not eat food will die."

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Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Zeena said:

What is the name of this thread?

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So what? Just because I or you post in a thread with a certain title does not mean we are obligated to agree with it.

Zeena said:

There you have it, all that denial for what?

For God to be the cause of evil, means that He is evil, for our of the heart the mouth speaks, even as the Lord Jesus has said. A font cannot send forth water both brakish and pure, even as the Apostle Peter stated, in testifying to the truth.

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There was no denial in any facetious manner, but rather a plea for you to read and consider my statements carefully. Besides, Peter was talking about human beings and not almighty God in that passage. They are and remain the authors of their own sin and are culpable for it. God is neither evil nor culpable for the sins that humans commit.

Zeena said:

Which viewpiont is indicative of one who refuses to repent of his own sin.
For in labelling God as the author [originator or cause] of sin, you therby forgo your own responsability for it.
And God is now the sinner, and you are now justified [in your own eyes].

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Thanks very much for the ad hominem and personal attack. Are you finding it diffucult to deal with arguments so you must resort to pointing out perceived specks in other Christians' eyes?

Zeena said:

Romans 9:20-21
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Sound familiar?

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Yes, what about it?

Now that you have gotten the finger-pointing out of your system, how about telling me what you think about the verses I posted a week ago. You promised to get back to them, afterall.

Numbers 22:20-22

20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.


Deuteronomy 32:39

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:6-7

6 “The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14

13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?

Psalm 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

Isaiah 6:9-10

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Isaiah 19:14

14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Isaiah 66:4

4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Tzaousios said:

Numbers 22:20-22
20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.

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Numbers 22:32
And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

Tzaousios said:

Deuteronomy 32:39
39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

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Is He not Sovereign? Is He not a God of Justice, as well as Mercy?

If someone does wrong, does not the Lord take Righteous vengeance?

BibleGateway.com - KeywordSearch: i will repay

Is not the Lord wroth with sinners?

Romans 2:5-11
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Do we all not get what's coming to us?

John 4:36
Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.

Tzaousios said:

1 Samuel 2:6-7
6 “The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up

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John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Perfectly contradicting your wrested verse, no?

Tzaousios said:

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?

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Tzaousios said:

Psalm 105:25
25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

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I asssume you mean to imply by this quote that God causes men to sin?

He does not cause men to sin, but men CHOSE thier own ways in their self-righteous self-centeredness!

Psalm 105:13-15
When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

Psalm 105:42-45
For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant. And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness: And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people; That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Did He repent of His own saying?
Did His heart change toward His people?
Or, rather, did thier hearts change toward Him for the deceitfulness of sin?

Psalm 105:24-25
And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

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Romans 11:13-15
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Tzaousios said:

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

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Are you not implying that it is the Lord's will that men supress the truth in unrighteousness in order to work towards His good purposes?

Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Seems to me you are not taking the WHOLE of Scripture into account..

Tzaousios said:

Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

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John 10:20-21
And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

Luke 4:17-27
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

John 12:46-47
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

John 3:18-21
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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You must reconcile these passages which conrtradict your thesis.

Tzaousios said:

Isaiah 19:14
14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

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Are you thus saying the Spirit of the Lord is perverse? Or rather, is it you who are perverse?

Is the Lord now multiple spirits?
Or is He one Spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Is the Lord the same spirit as Jezebel?

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Tzaousios said:

Isaiah 66:4
4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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I think is pretty self-evident;

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

James 2:13
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

First of all, although you will probably say something to the effect that you just posting verses in reply is because they are self-evident, you should really explain how they fit into your argument and the way you are reading them.

Zeena said:

Numbers 22:32
And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me

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Yes, obviously Balaam was dabbling in divination and culpable for that sin. But you have missed the reason why I posted the passage. First of all, God issues a command to Balaam to get up and follow the men. What does God do next?

Zeena said:

Is He not Sovereign? Is He not a God of Justice, as well as Mercy?

If someone does wrong, does not the Lord take Righteous vengeance?

BibleGateway.com - KeywordSearch: i will repay

Is not the Lord wroth with sinners?

Click to expand...

Good, I am pleased to see that you acknowledge that God's sovereignty extends to him having the right to smite his creation and take life. He is perfectly able and totally righteous in doing so. Some people who take a lesser view of God's sovereignty would say this is a bad thing and even evil.

Zeena said:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Perfectly contradicting your wrested verse, no?

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No, it does not contradict. I do not know what you mean by "wrested verse," either.

In my view, both the actions of God in 1 Samuel 2:6-7 and John 10:10 are perfectly compatible and not contradictory.

Zeena said:

I asssume you mean to imply by this quote that God causes men to sin?

He does not cause men to sin, but men CHOSE thier own ways in their self-righteous self-centeredness!

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No, God does not cause men to sin to the extent that he is culpable for any sin or wrongdoing. I have already explained my position on this.

As for you, however, the verses from Ecclesiastes and Psalms seem to be giving you trouble, for you have just copied the same tired tropes as your reply.

How do you account for the actions of God in these two passages and make them compatible with the position you have taken? The verses from Psalms that you posted do nothing but deflect the problem you are having. Here are my verses once again:

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14

13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?

Psalm 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

Click to expand...

Zeena said:

Romans 11:13-15

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

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Explain how this passage has anything to do with the one I posted from Psalms 105:24-25. As far as I am concerned, it appears to be more deflection on your part.

Zeena said:

John 10:20-21...Luke 4:17-27...John 12:46-47

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Once again, I fail to see what you are trying to prove to me by posting this succession of passages without any commentary or explanation. Both the one I posted and the ones you put forth here are totally compatible in my view. There are no contradictions or incongruities. However, you have failed to explain how the actions of God in Isaiah 6:9-10 are compatible with the position you have taken.

Zeena said:

You must reconcile these passages which conrtradict your thesis.

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How so? Merely saying that they contradict does not prove anything. Once again, you are failing to engage my argument and to articulate your own position in relation to the verses I have posted.

Tzaousios said:

Isaiah 19:14

14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Zeena said:

Are you thus saying the Spirit of the Lord is perverse? Or rather, is it you who are perverse?

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Setting aside the fact that once again you have aimed an ad hominem and personal attack against me, I will answer: no. But how do you account for the actions of God in this passage in relation to the position you have taken? Still deflecting it seems.

Zeena said:

Is the Lord now multiple spirits?
Or is He one Spirit?

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No. Where did I say that he is "multiple spirits"?

Zeena said:

Is the Lord the same spirit as Jezebel?

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No. Where did I say that the Lord is "the same spirit as Jezebel"?

Zeena said:

1 Corinthians 6:15-17...1 Kings 18:21...Luke 16:13

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I do not see how these passages disprove anything that has to do with my position. Nor do they help answer how you are able to deal with Isaiah 19:14 in the context of the position which you have maintained.

Zeena said:

I think is pretty self-evident;

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

James 2:13
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

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If you are referring to the import of Isaiah 66:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11, yes, I think it is quite self-evident. On the other hand, if you are referring to the clarity of your explanation, no, it is very convoluted. Once again, how are the actions of God in these passages compatible with the position you have maintained thus far?

Tzaousios said:

First of all, although you will probably say something to the effect that you just posting verses in reply is because they are self-evident, you should really explain how they fit into your argument and the way you are reading them.

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You seem to have confused me with one who has the answers, when I am merely a messenger.

I quote Scripture as the Lord gave me, I do not reveal the truth, I merely point to it in the Spirit of my God. This is "the way" I am "reading", or better, understanding, what the Lord is conveying.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The Scripture quotes were quoted with one purpose in mind, to make you [and I] think and ponder over the Lord, His Holy, Righteous, Faithful character. For we worship the God Who is all that, and so much more!

YouTube - Hosanna (with lyrics)

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

The Lord will answer for Himself out of the whirlwind

For God to be the cause of evil, means that He is evil, for our of the heart the mouth speaks, even as the Lord Jesus has said. A font cannot send forth water both brakish and pure, even as the Apostle Peter stated, in testifying to the truth.

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This is the root of misunderstanding. Evil is a created thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gods character or person. It was created for His purpose which we can't understand but yet we try and place our finite understanding upon a infinite scope which is beyond our comprehension.

God is by no means evil because of what He created for a purpose. If you understand that, then this thread need not continue further. If not, we will pray the father for understanding and leave the reaping to Him.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

This is the root of misunderstanding. Evil is a created thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gods character or person. It was created for His purpose which we can't understand but yet we try and place our finite understanding upon a infinite scope which is beyond our comprehension.

God is by no means evil because of what He created for a purpose. If you understand that, then this thread need not continue further. If not, we will pray the father for understanding and leave the reaping to Him.

hismessenger

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Evil is a created 'thing'?

God never created evil, He created everything 'good', 'very good', didn't He?

Is not evil a choice? It is not an action, a way one commits to, the opposite of love for God?
Adam was not created evil, was he? Did he not chose, rather, to do evil in the eyes of the Lord?

If God didn't create it then how did it get in the garden in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is a created thing, not the person of God, just as we are a created thing, also not the person of God but both being sustained by who else in this creation? Nobody but God.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

If God didn't create it then how did it get in the garden in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is a created thing, not the person of God, just as we are a created thing, also not the person of God but both being sustained by who else in this creation? Nobody but God.

hismessenger

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The Tree of knowledge of good and evil is not, nor ever was, a bad thing. It is the act of disobedience that constitutes sin, not relying on God's Word, that is what kills us!

Chosing for ourselves what is right and wrong, faithlessness.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm

cksilas said:

GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

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No, God did not creat evil. [if that was not blaspheme, it would be funny]
God gave freedom.
We have used that freedom to do evil things. "Period!"

squint said:

I have heard your 'line of reasoning' for most of my believing life.

Reason tells me that your God is IN NEED of something you might have. Your supposed love. I do not believe in a God of NEED. God Is, Was and Will Forever Remain Perfect. There is 'no flaws, no needs' in and with Him.

Reason also tells me that you believe that God will then REWARD you for your 'optional produce that He needs.' This too is a very questionable approach.

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You've as usual presumed far too much. The key word was "want" not need.

And reason also tells me that you use your basis above to justify your choices and selections while openly condemning others for their lack of same, and I'm sorry, that just AIN'T LOVE. One does not 'use choice LOVE' to CONDEMN other people. That's NOT what life and love is about whatsoever. And in fact it's a sickness of self justification and the condemnation of others that doesn't really resemble LOVE one WHIT, nor would I expect such a concoction to be patted on the back anytime soon by God or anyone else except by those who agree with your format, who WILL turn and devour you as soon as you make 'a bad choice.' They MAY toss you to the FLAMES just as you MAY do to others in your own heart.

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Presuming that I openly condemn others or am self justifying is sadly what alot of Christians are today; and that is prejudgmental and uninformed.

That entire account has about ZERO to do with 'choices.'

There are far better and more 'credible' explanations about what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden.

For example, if you can bear to allow this in your choice psyche scenario:

God BLESSED Adam (with Eve still within) and COMMANDED them to BE FRUITFUL and MULTIPLY.

Now following the line of open reasoning, SATAN then came IMMEDIATELY into their hearts to STEAL THE WORD from them, because THAT is what SATAN does.

AFTER THAT the LAW was given to Adam...that LAW was 'do not eat.'

We know that the LAW is for THE LAWLESS.

Well, again reason might openly see that there was A THEFT that had already transpired in the mind and in the heart of them both, and THAT by Satan who went THEREIN and STOLE from them, more than likely without them EVER knowing it, just like YOU may never know it.

The next account we get from Eve is a NON-UNDERSTANDING of the Words of God in that prior command when she said they could not EVEN TOUCH THE TREE. God never said that.

So we have two progressions of SIN already in place LONG BEFORE the fruit of the infamous tree was ever ate. The entrance of SATAN to STEAL the Word from within...resulting in the DELIVERY OF THE LAW, which then exacerbated the working of SATAN to BLIND or STEAL the command of LAW from Eve, because she obviously DIDN'T GET IT RIGHT...

This progression of sin is called sin in THOUGHT and the next stage which is SIN IN WORD...

By the time we get to the actual PHYSICAL VIOLATION of the command, the eating, that is the LAST STAGE of sins presence within them, SIN IN PHYSICAL DEED...but the real action had already taken place before it showed up ON THE OUTSIDE.

Now, your axiom is to BLAME THEM. I say WHY? Who made them SUBJECT TO DECEPTION in the first place? Who gave AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITY access to their supposedly FREEWILL MIND and BODY? It would not appear to be SO FREE when another entity can WALTZ IN and STEAL and DESTROY. Yet that IS what happened.

To separate SIN from the workings of SATAN is impossible, scripturally speaking. Every sin of mankind is directly connected to SATAN in 1 John 3:8.

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That whole rebuttal explains alot of absolutely nothing of the subject which is the origin of Satan. You say Satan entered their minds before the fruit, but where did Satan come from?

So if you really wanted to LOVE your fellow man you might look to THAT WORKING OF SATAN in them if you want to find FAULT...maybe even 'in yourself' and understand that Adam was Gods son (Luke 3:38) God never had any intentions of BURNING ADAM ALIVE FOREVER IN FIRE for making 'bad choices.' That's just SICK imho. God will however eventually and utterly DESTROY that working of SIN, which was taken away from attribution to MANKIND at the CROSS.

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Some preachy stuff...

Agreed there. So, do we believe MAN is sufficient for the destruction and overcoming of THE EVIL OF SATAN...

OR do we believe that GODS LOVE is therein sufficient to SAVE US...and in the process DESTROY that same EVIL? These are not meant to aggravate you, but to lift you up IN LOVE as it was meant to to FOR YOU, not 'you lifting yourself up AS IT.'

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More preachy stuff...

You do see that even you have slipped into God BRINGING it about. And I too believe that. God can overcome ANY AND ALL the entirety of the works of EVIL as if NONE of it EVER existed. And in the end that IS what is going to transpire, ALL OF HIM.

Divine MERCY is something that we are being shown in the process, because we HAVE NEED OF HIM in our present situations.


To say that God cannot enter into the mind and heart is pure speculation, and in fact is NOT presented in the text. The Spirit DOES DWELL THEREIN, in the hearts and minds of HIS CHILDREN. That is what HIS SPIRIT does.

And to say that SATAN has no entrance or influence therein is also false. Satan entered into the hearts of ALL when sin entered the world.

When all the players in the drama of our current life are on the table of judgments, it becomes progressively difficult to blame ONLY MAN.

But as you so measure...so it will be measured back to you, by either of the other parties...

enjoy!

squint

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I'm at a complete loss as to where you thought that this part of my post was about whether or not God can indwell us; of course he can and does...like you said through the Spirit. My post however, was whether or not God wants to control us like robots or give us freewill. Obviously he wants us to have free will, but he also wants to influence us to a certain degree where its not complete control....

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

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Now I know that you are going to say that those verse don't really mean what they say. So here are a few different translations which have the same understanding. These are people who are bible scholars and better still led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. We can't all be wrong.

The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
NKJV - Pro 16:4 - The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
NLT - Pro 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for punishment.
ESV - Pro 16:4 - The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.



hismessenger

Job 17:12
These men turn night into day; in the face of darkness they say, 'Light is near.'

The GRAVE is symbolized as darkness brother.
Sheol, the pit.

God created that place yes!

Job 30:23-24
For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, And to the house appointed for all living.
Howbeit doth not one stretch out the hand in his fall? Or in his calamity therefore cry for help?

But that is not indicative that He is the creator of EVIL!-LOL!

And in proverbs 6:14 are you implying God is so evil as to create men with the purpose of HELL?!?

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Then how did it get into the creation lf He is the creation and created all things for His purpose. Note the word says ALL things. Evil is a thing. I rest my case.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

Then how did it get into the creation lf He is the creation and created all things for His purpose. Note the word says ALL things. Evil is a thing. I rest my case.

hismessenger

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Again I tell you, evil is not a 'thing', it is an ACTION!-LOLOLOL!!!

Does God create rape, murder, incest and evil ACTIONS?!?!

Do not rather men, out of the hardness of thier hearts, store up wrath for the day of Judgement?!?

Please read this;

GOD HAS NO PLEASURE IN THE SINNER'S DEATH by Charles G. Finney

As it has many answers for questions you would ask after this assertation.

An excerpt said:

He will rejoice in the realization of the great idea of justice, and in the results of its manifestation before all finite minds. He does not rejoice in the misery, but does rejoice in the other results which accrue from the sinner's death. He rejoices that the great idea of justice is brought out before the universe so that they shall see what sin is, and what an exceedingly bitter thing it is to rebel against God and goodness.

[SIZE=-1]This file is CERTIFIED BY GOSPEL TRUTH MINISTRIES TO BE CONFORMED TO THE ORIGINAL TEXT. For authenticity verification, its contents can be compared to the original file at [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.GospelTruth.net[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] or by contacting Gospel Truth P.O. Box 6322, Orange, CA 92863. (C)2000. This file is not to be changed in any way, nor to be sold, nor this seal to be removed.[/SIZE]

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David understood when He said, If I make my bed in Hell, You art there. Why is He there? Because without Him there is no heaven or hell or you or me or good or bad or up or down or east or west,day or night. I could go on to eternity with all the things which He is including eternity.

So what is it that He doesn't sustain for His purpose? And how did it get here apart from Him. Did it just happen in His creation?

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

David understood when He said, If I make my bed in Hell, You art there. Why is He there? Because without Him there is no heaven or hell or you or me or good or bad or up or down or east or west,day or night. I could go on to eternity with all the things which He is including eternity.

So what is it that He doesn't sustain for His purpose? And how did it get here apart from Him. Did it just happen in His creation?

hismessenger

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Actully, David did not use the word 'hell', he used the word 'sheol' which is indicative of the grave, where JESUS DECENDED!

Where JESUS preached to those in prison and lead captivity captive!

God is not present in 'hell', but He was present in 'sheol', the grave, the pit.. Paradise.

Psalm 30:3
O Jehovah, thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol; Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Hell is the place of God's wrath, Jesus does not go there!
Or, are you saying He is accursed?

God does not have a finite fatalist mentality for what he created once, He can resurrect again for He created all things. That things takes us into that scope just as well as evil. Why can't you believe that there is nothing of the creation which He did not purpose. He said that everything that he created was good. That good is talking about purpose for which it was created, not the ACTION or mentality that we see it in.

hismessenger

Zeena said:

Again I tell you, evil is not a 'thing', it is an ACTION!-LOLOLOL!!!

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Hm, well, technically, evil isn't an action either. Actions without intent generally are not inherently evil; and evil thoughts, deeds, and words (even if treated especially harshly because they're acted-upon) are still evil.

Are you saying God could create something good that goes wrong without His knowing ... and thus intending ... it?

Zeena said:

Does God create rape, murder, incest and evil ACTIONS?!?!

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In some sense you have to conclude that God does control and thus intend all the causes for those actions. Because God's the First Cause.

To philosophy of religion, that's generally why religions think there's a corrective at the end of Creation: to correct wrong.

Zeena said:

Do not rather men, out of the hardness of thier hearts, store up wrath for the day of Judgement?!?

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Men are created by God, all their influences and causes are created by God.

Zeena, you should read Zecharia 13&14 if you don't believethat God creates he evil. Look at what he says will happen to His people in the last half of chapter 13 and then looka at what he says in chapter 14. He has decreed all of this so it must come to pass just as He layed it our for His word is truth and cannot come back void. He even says in one scripture, I will relent of the evil I thought to do to you. It has its purpose for His glory, not ours. I think that is where most make that mistake of assumimg that God would not do or allow that to happen

hismessenger