Gifts of the Spirit

[PatrickM]

so do a word study on jesus.... and you will find out He is always male

Actually, my point is that gender alone does not necessarily solve questions of allegorical usage of words. Context, and corresponding Scripture are required. Again, as in my previous example of the use of the neuter gender for the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, simply stating "that which is perfect" is in the neuter case, does not prevent the context from meaning Jesus' return. Paul is using a metaphor. And to remain grammatically correct he must use the proper gender for "perfect", which in this case is neuter.

 

[onelamb]

First off, tongues are not a consistent sign. Not all believers have them/want them/need them. According to Paul, prophecy is much better.

Second, I think we can determine that knowledge, prophecy, and tongues will vanish when we hit perfection. Yet, the last prophecy of the Bible is heaven (see Revelation). Untill this is fulfilled, there is still unfulfilled prophecy. Therefore, we should have gifts untill the end of Revelation (heaven) comes to pass.

all believers can have them-not the gift of tongues-but the tongues used in prayer. They are different you know. Paul told us plainly that 'he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man, but to God"-prayer is speaking to God.
Paul wasn't saying "prophesy is better" in fact, Paul made it plain that speaking in tongues was mainly for prayer-"I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you---yet in church."
Man has free will. If you don't want to be saved, God will let you go to hell. Likewise, is you don't want His grace (charisma) go ahead and live without it. God told us through Paul to keep on being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). He (Jesus) also told us to wait until we are endued with power from on high (Luke 24:49).
I will believe what the Bible says, not what I hear from my friends who heard that somebody one time went somewhere and this is what they heard.
Now listen carefully to Paul here.
1 Cor 14:4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
1 Cor 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but {even} more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
1. One who speaks in tongues edifies himself - he builds himself up. What does Jude 20 say?
Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
2. One who prophesies edifies the church
3. I wish you all spoke in tongues
4. More than that (not instead of that) that you would prophesy
5. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues IN CHURCH unless he interprets.
Did you get that? Prophecy in a church service is equivilent to tongues + interpretation. Paul is not addressing one's private prayer language here - he is addressing the public gift of tongues.
Any believer can have a private prayer language. BUT - not everyone will be called to give a message in tongues during a church service.
Any believer can lay hands on the sick (Mark 16:16-18) but not all are gifted with the gift of healing.
Any believer can teach but not all are gifted as teachers to the body of Christ.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

All believers have the prayer tongue, because this is not a language at all, but the Spirit communicating with God.

1) Speaking in tongues may help you, but in small ways if you cannot interpret. 1 Corinthians 14:14- "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

2) Agreed

3) It is a noble -wish-. After all, how were they to speak to foreigners?

4) Yet again a wish. Prophecy is more useful for the church

5) One who prophesies is greater unless the person speaking in tongues (most likely prophecy in tongues) can interpret (which makes them equally valuable). He is pointing out that understood prophecy is much more important than un-understood prophecy.

 

[@@Paul@@]

All believers have the prayer tongue, because this is not a language at all, but the Spirit communicating with God.

.......Which can NOT be uttered!!

Rom 8:26 KJV
(26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.​

utter

ut·ter [úttər]
vt
1. say something: to say or pronounce something
2. emit something as vocal sound: to emit something as a sound made by the voice
3. publish something: to publish something, for example, in a book or newspaper (archaic)
You would not dare to utter this nonsense in print.
4. law to put something into circulation: to put something into circulation, especially counterfeit money or a forgery, under the pretense that it is genuine (formal)​

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Quite so! It is not a language, or even based on sound

 

[onelamb]

That's not true-Paul said "I thank God that I SPEAK in tongues more than all of you."

He also said, "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God"-now what else is "speaking to God" if it's not prayer? He goes on to say-he who speaks in a tongue-utters mysteries with his spirit.

There are at least two manifesations of tongues-one for the edification of the individual believer-not meant for the church gathered-more for private communion with the Lord. and the other that is a manifestation of the Spirit-known as the "gift of tongues" which must be accompianed by another Spiritual gift-that of interpretation so that the church can be edified.

Matter of fact, Paul even tells us that he sings in tongues-"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit but I will also pray with my understanding. I will SING with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[@@Paul@@]

That's not true-Paul said "I thank God that I SPEAK in tongues more than all of you."

He also said, "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God"-now what else is "speaking to God" if it's not prayer? He goes on to say-he who speaks in a tongue-utters mysteries with his spirit.

There are at least two manifesations of tongues-one for the edification of the individual believer-not meant for the church gathered-more for private communion with the Lord. and the other that is a manifestation of the Spirit-known as the "gift of tongues" which must be accompianed by another Spiritual gift-that of interpretation so that the church can be edified.

Matter of fact, Paul even tells us that he sings in tongues-"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit but I will also pray with my understanding. I will SING with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

And Paul did NOT say "I thank my God i PRAY in tongues", He was thankful to spread the Gospel.

he was "speaking as a fool". One does not edify ONESELF, we edify each other. How can praying in the spirit, edify oneself while one's "understanding is unfruitful"?

..........it's really quite simple. praying in "a tongue" is NOT the same as praying with "your spirit".

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Matter of fact, Paul even tells us that he sings in tongues-"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit but I will also pray with my understanding. I will SING with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

That's not true-Paul said "I thank God that I SPEAK in tongues more than all of you."

He also said, "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God"-now what else is "speaking to God" if it's not prayer? He goes on to say-he who speaks in a tongue-utters mysteries with his spirit.

There are at least two manifesations of tongues-one for the edification of the individual believer-not meant for the church gathered-more for private communion with the Lord. and the other that is a manifestation of the Spirit-known as the "gift of tongues" which must be accompianed by another Spiritual gift-that of interpretation so that the church can be edified.

Listen to @@Paul@@, he has a good understanding of this as well.

Anyways, a tongue is simply defined as a language. One purpose of tongues is to spread the word to people of a different language. A lot of foreigners came to the services (which were nothing like what we have today, a lot were in the public temples) and so the tongues were necessary to draw them in. It was practically useless to speak in tongues if nobody could understand.

Praying in the Spirit simply means that when you pray, the Spirit prays with you, and intercedes. You cannot hear the Spirit itself pray.

Answer me this though: Is what you're doing of the Spirit? We know from the Bible as well as other sources that tongues weren't too common, and more people had other gifts. There are real tongues out there, but maybe you should do a little bit of investigation...

 

[onelamb]

Which foreign language was being spoken when Paul said-He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God-Indeed NO ONE understands him, he speaks mysteries to God?

When paul said-For if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I WILL PRAY....." What makes you think he was lying?

Contrary to your "opinion" tongues were very common in the early church-they were for all believers who received the baptism in the Holy Spirit-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6--the "gift of tongues" isn't as common-but this is for the church gathered and must be accompianed by the "gift of interpretation" however, even this-2 or at the most 3 each in turn and let one interpret-isn't rare.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Paul was making a general statement at the beginning of this teaching. It is the equivalent of saying "How great is it to speak to God in tongues that we do not understand!" After all, he knows they are humanly languages:

10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.

He then clarifies by saying that while you may actually may be praying in a different language and pleasing God, your mind doesn't get anything from it, so we are also to pray with our minds.

Everyone recieves the Spirit, yes, but not everyone can speak in tongues. And 2-3 a lot? Don't forget they were adding thousands to their number each day...

 

[@@Paul@@]

Which foreign language was being spoken when Paul said-He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God-Indeed NO ONE understands him, he speaks mysteries to God?

When paul said-For if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I WILL PRAY....." What makes you think he was lying?

Contrary to your "opinion" tongues were very common in the early church-they were for all believers who received the baptism in the Holy Spirit-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6--the "gift of tongues" isn't as common-but this is for the church gathered and must be accompianed by the "gift of interpretation" however, even this-2 or at the most 3 each in turn and let one interpret-isn't rare.

The book to the Corinthians was addressing those people who were using the gifts improperly, it seams some were speaking mysteries to God through prayer.

What part of "which cannot be uttered" did i not explain well?

1Co 14:13-15 KJV
(13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.​

.........Anyone given the gifts of tongues should pray that HE MAY interpret when he speaks.

(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.​

.........If i pray in an unknown tongue, i will have NO understanding - therefore it is unfruitful.

(15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.​

.........Pray with your spirit.

Jesus Christ gave us the template for praying:

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.​

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

........If one prays in tongues, and does not interpret, he speaks mysteries to God.

1Co 14:4-5 KJV
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
(5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.​

.........If one speaks in tongues (and interprets) the church receives edification.

If your understanding is unfruitful, how can you edify yourself?

 

[onelamb]

We are built up in our inner man. There is no need to "understand" else Paul would have said so-in actuality he said "If I pray in a tongue-my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful--so what shall I do? I will pray---no contraction here at all. According to scripture there are several reasons for praying in a language your mind does not comprehend.
The Benefits of Speaking In Tongues:
To edify you - 1 Corinthians 14:4, Jude 20
To speak to God divine secrets - 1 Corinthians 14:2
To speak the wonderful works of God - Acts 2:11
To magnify God - Acts 10:46
To pray perfectly - Romans 8:26,27
To give thanks well - 1 Corinthians 14:17
To have the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit - Romans 8:16
To know you are a joint-heir with Christ - Romans 8:17
To strengthen you with might in your inner man - Ephesians 3:16
To be a sign to unbelievers - 1 Corinthians 14:22; Mark 16:17
Rest to the soul - Isaiah 28:11,12; 1 Corinthians 14:21
Jude 1:20-21
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost [pneuma hagion - holy spirit],
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Praying in the holy spirit is praying in tongues. It is one of the two methods of prayer available to believers in this grace administration that began on the day of Pentecost. As we pray in tongues we are edified (built up). (He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; - I Corinthians 14:4a) Praying in tongues keeps us in the love of God and keeps our focus on that eternal life we have coming at the return of Christ.
I Corinthians 14:14-15
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
There are two methods of prayer: in the spirit and with the understanding. Both are important and both are available to believers today. When we pray in tongues we do not understand the words but our prayer is spiritual. It is our holy spirit in direct communication with The Holy Spirit: God.
I Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
That which we pray in tongues to the Father is a mystery as we do not understand the words. Yet it is the most powerful method of prayer as it is in the spirit: it is spiritual. While speaking in tongues to God we can, with our understanding, be praying also. The two methods of prayer ought to be used together.
While I Corinthians 12-14 do much to explain the manifestation of speaking in tongues, the purpose of these chapters was to correct wrong practice in the church. When praying with other believers our prayers (out loud at least) ought to be prayers with our understanding. Speaking in tongues out loud does not benefit the hearers in the room as they do not understand the words. When praying out loud in the fellowship of other believers our prayers ought to be understood.
I Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Prayer in the fellowship of other believers needs to be understood and therefore ought to be prayer with our understanding. Does this mean that the Apostle Paul preferred prayer with the understanding over the powerful spiritual prayer in the spirit? In the church, in the fellowship of other believers, yes; but in his private prayer life to God? - No! In fact:
I Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
The Apostle Paul prayed much in tongues in his private prayers to God. He prayed with his understanding for the believers, for the move of God's Word, for the knowledge of God's power, hope, and inheritance to be made known. Yet while he fervently prayed for these things with his understanding he was continuously praying in the spirit; so much so that he declared he spoke in tongues more than all the believers in Corinth.
Prayer in the spirit - speaking in tongues - is very very powerful. It is not dependent upon our understanding of the situation and therefore it is effective on a level far above that which we can manage on our own. Speaking in tongues is spiritual communication with God that reaches directly to the source of the need and is perfect intercession in accordance with God's Will.
Romans 8:26-27
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with goanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Word of God declares in I John 5:14-15 that when we ask according to God's Will He hears us and we have the petitions we desire of Him. Prayer with our understanding must reflect a knowledge of His Word (which is His Will) if it is to be effectual. Prayer in the spirit is not dependent upon our understanding and is always in accordance with God's Will. We may not always know God's Word for a particular need - but God does. That is why prayer in the spirit is so powerful. We need to study and learn God's Word so that the prayers we speak with our understanding become more fruitful. But our prayer in the spirit is always fruitful. It is always perfectly in line with God's Will.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Speaking in tongues is true worship. It is prayer in the spirit and it is always in accordance with God's true Word so pray without ceasing and pray much in the spirit.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Praying in the Spirit is still not the same as praying in tongues, there just isn't any evidence to support the claim. And I must ask, if speaking in tongues is true worship, why will they one day be stilled, though we will never stop worshipping God? You need to research this a little bit more...

 

[onelamb]

Who enables our praying in tongues? The scripture says it is the Holy Spirit Acts 2:4-so how can you say praying in the Spirit doesn't include tongues? Paul said, If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful-so what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit and I will also pray with my understanding.--if it was good enough for Paul it's good enough for me.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The terms are confusing, I admit, but while praying with tongues uses the Spirit, praying in the Spirit is not the same thing; it doesn't require tongues to be used.

 

[PatrickM]

Praying in the Spirit is still not the same as praying in tongues, there just isn't any evidence to support the claim.

It is there, if you are willing to see it. First of all, the entire context of 1Cor14 is tongues, so when Paul says when a person speaks in a tongue, in the spirit he speaks mysteries, it can only mean speaking in a tongue is equivalent to speaking in the spirit.

And it is semantics to try to differentiate between "praying" and "speaking". Was not Abraham praying, interceding, for Sodom in Genesis 18? Verse 22, 23, "but Abraham stil stood before the Lord. And Abraham said, "Would You (speaking to God) . . ."

Can you say that Abraham, speaking to God, was not also praying? Ergo, speaking to God and praying to God is the same thing.

And I must ask, if speaking in tongues is true worship, why will they one day be stilled, though we will never stop worshipping God? You need to research this a little bit more...

Simple. For now, we are still in our sinful, mortal bodies, hence we see through a glass, dimly. But God has not left us without some pure form of communication, prayer, worship, whatever. Hence tongues.

When we see Him face to face, of course, this will no longer be necessary, for our communication with Him will not be hindered by our sinful, mortal flesh.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

It is there, if you are willing to see it. First of all, the entire context of 1Cor14 is tongues, so when Paul says when a person speaks in a tongue, in the spirit he speaks mysteries, it can only mean speaking in a tongue is equivalent to speaking in the spirit.

And it is semantics to try to differentiate between "praying" and "speaking". Was not Abraham praying, interceding, for Sodom in Genesis 18? Verse 22, 23, "but Abraham stil stood before the Lord. And Abraham said, "Would You (speaking to God) . . ."

Can you say that Abraham, speaking to God, was not also praying? Ergo, speaking to God and praying to God is the same thing.

See my last post. It should clear the confusion.

Simple. For now, we are still in our sinful, mortal bodies, hence we see through a glass, dimly. But God has not left us without some pure form of communication, prayer, worship, whatever. Hence tongues.

When we see Him face to face, of course, this will no longer be necessary, for our communication with Him will not be hindered by our sinful, mortal flesh.

Yet if it passes away with our flesh, is it not the old as well? True worship is in Spirit, and from scripture, we see that this does not cease, even in Heaven.

 

[onelamb]

Praying in the Spirit is praying under the annointing and unction of the Spirit-tongues or your native language-it is all praying in the Spirit.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, that is true.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

.........If i pray in an unknown tongue, i will have NO understanding - therefore it is unfruitful.

?​

John 15:2 every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away...

so why would you want to do this?

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight