Gifts of the Spirit

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Explain please

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

revelations was written in about 95 ad

other books happened before this I think... could be wrong....but pretty sure I am not

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Revelation dates from 69-79 AD, through evidence in the text.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

still probaly last book of he bible

 

[rainbowprism]

What is the oldest book in the Old Testament?
Many scholars agree that Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written by an unknown Israelite about 1500 B.C. Others hold that the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) are the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1446 and 1406 B.C.

What is the youngest book in the Old Testament?
The book of Malachi, written about 400 B.C.

What is the oldest book of the New Testament?
Probably the book of James, written as early as A.D. 45.

What is the youngest book in the New Testament?
The Book of Revelation is the youngest book of the New Testament, written about 95 A.D.

 

[Iosias]

This is hotly debated between various denominations.

Personally, I believe the signs have for the most part passed away. They were meant to confirm the Holy Apostles, and they did so. There are still miracles, but the signs are no longer needed.

Sound Biblical doctrine!

 

[john14_20]

There are no such things as spiritual "gifts". The word 'gift' implies ownership. This is shown in how we speak of the spiritual "gifts". People say "I have the gift of ..... (whatever)"

The truth is we do not have the gift of this, that or the other.

We cannot claim ownership in what the Spirit is doing.

In the Greek manuscript, there is no word corresponding to 'gifts'. In Corinthians, Paul writes "Now about spiritual matters" not "spiritual gifts".

They are manifestations of God that we share in.

Let me go further.

There is only True prophet - Jesus Christ.

There is only True wise man - Jesus Christ.

There is only True healer - Jesus Christ.

You can go on with all the so called gifts.

Jesus Christ is the only One who owns what we call the 'gifts', and he humbly and graciously shares them with us, and includes us in what He is doing.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[PatrickM]

I am a little confused PatrickM. What do you mean when you quote the scripture that all gifts will vanish when the final prophecies come?

It was in the context that when this "perfect" comes, all "temporary" things will vanish, including our limited knowledge of things. This appears to be a future event, as I surely don't "know even as I am known."

It cannot mean the completion of the NT, as, again, I do not know as I am known.

 

[onelamb]

If your church is teaching that the Spiritual gifts Paul spoke of-are not for this time period-then your church is teaching false doctrine. All the gifts-including tongues are for the church age. That began on the day of Pentecost and will continue till Jesus returns-He is "that which is perfect"-when He returns-we will know as we are known.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

If your church is teaching that the Spiritual gifts Paul spoke of-are not for this time period-then your church is teaching false doctrine. All the gifts-including tongues are for the church age. That began on the day of Pentecost and will continue till Jesus returns-He is "that which is perfect"-when He returns-we will know as we are known.

1 cor 13:10 perfect is come

In the greek that word is a nueter [aka perfect thing]

and Jesus Christ is a mascline
and the Word of God is a feminine

so since my savior is not a thing what does it refer to

vs 8 prophecies
vs 9 prophecies...

 

[onelamb]

That which is perfect" will arrive when Christians...

• [font=Arial, Helvetica]Have full knowledge of God.[/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica]No longer need prophecy to have direct knowledge of God's will and purpose.[/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica]Attain full spiritual maturity.[/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica]See God face-to-face.[/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica]Know God up close and personal.[/font]

In other words-at the Rapture

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I agree the christ is perfect and all that but 1 cor 13:8 is not talking about Him but His prophecy

 

[onelamb]

now, on this issue you would expect maybe 7 or 8 good verses to support their claim that spiritual gifts ceased with the apostles (or the dawn of modern medicine!!! ive heard this argued against miracles, and that is awful. exaggerated. etc.). but did you know that there really is only 1 verse that they use to "prove" this?

Its found in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. lets read it.

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." (just v. 8, NKJV)

so, heres the thing, , for one thing it is clear that there is only 3 things being talked about - tongues, prophesy, and knowledge. Now, only one of those 3 things is said to have been done away. because word of knowledge and prophesy, are clearly active in the Church. I believe prophesy is a spiritual gift that flows very naturally-supernaturally in a loving community of believers who expect God to speak among them).

So lets see why they think tongues has been done away with.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (verse 9-10, NKJV)

ok, so many cessationists (like your Church i suspect) suppose this to be the clincher. so obviously they equate the "that which is perfect" with the obvious referrent - the canon of Scripture!? - i know its hard to believe they would even try to make such a claim. but many do. Paul would not have been teaching on the canon of scripture, he lived before any such talk - in fact the canon has to do with apostolic authority, not the cessation of these certain gifts. No the obvious reference here is to the return of Christ, who is perfection, and who will bring this world back to a state of perfection. Then, we will no longer need those incomplete revelations, for the full will be given.

also, consider the analogies of the boy growing into a man and the dim mirror then face to face. These two picture demonstrate i think a complete shift from one mode of existence to another. In one, we talk/understand/think like a child and see dimly - in the other, we put away childish things and see face to face.

In short, their argument is flawed big time.

but i think the real reason that many do not think these gifts are for today, is because they are supernatural and wild and quite frankly that scares some people. why - is hard to say. a lot isnt said about it (and hence they cant systematize it and analyze it and control it), and for many years of Church history (besides occasional revivals) people did not experiance God on a personal, supernatural level - which i attribute to bad teaching on the matter,
now - do i think that someone MUST speak in tongues to be saved? No- of course not but scripture teaches that all of us can be baptised in the Holy Spirit-and with that comes the ability to pray and praise in other tongues.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

now, on this issue you would expect maybe 7 or 8 good verses to support their claim that spiritual gifts ceased with the apostles (or the dawn of modern medicine!!! ive heard this argued against miracles, and that is awful. exaggerated. etc.). but did you know that there really is only 1 verse that they use to "prove" this?

Its found in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. lets read it.

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." (just v. 8, NKJV)

so, heres the thing, , for one thing it is clear that there is only 3 things being talked about - tongues, prophesy, and knowledge. Now, only one of those 3 things is said to have been done away. because word of knowledge and prophesy, are clearly active in the Church.

tongues, prophesy, and knowledge as Gifts from the spirit have been done away with but not human knowledge, human tongues, and false prophecy

when we talk of prophecy today we are looking at promises that have not been given yet that are coming in the future

I believe prophesy is a spiritual gift that flows very naturally-supernaturally in a loving community of believers who expect God to speak among them).

So lets see why they think tongues has been done away with.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (verse 9-10, NKJV)

ok, so many cessationists (like your Church i suspect) suppose this to be the clincher. so obviously they equate the "that which is perfect" with the obvious referrent - the canon of Scripture!? - i know its hard to believe they would even try to make such a claim. but many do. Paul would not have been teaching on the canon of scripture, he lived before any such talk - in fact the canon has to do with apostolic authority, not the cessation of these certain gifts.

some gifts where given so that God could edify the body by the spirit thru believers and when the Prophecy was finnish the apostles died off....these gifts were not replaced since the spirit gives the gifts

No the obvious reference here is to the return of Christ, who is perfection, and who will bring this world back to a state of perfection. Then, we will no longer need those incomplete revelations, for the full will be given.

also, consider the analogies of the boy growing into a man and the dim mirror then face to face. These two picture demonstrate i think a complete shift from one mode of existence to another. In one, we talk/understand/think like a child and see dimly - in the other, we put away childish things and see face to face.

In short, their argument is flawed big time.

but i think the real reason that many do not think these gifts are for today, is because they are supernatural and wild and quite frankly that scares some people. why - is hard to say. a lot isnt said about it (and hence they cant systematize it and analyze it and control it), and for many years of Church history (besides occasional revivals) people did not experiance God on a personal, supernatural level - which i attribute to bad teaching on the matter,

true

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might [experienceally] know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

now - do i think that someone MUST speak in tongues to be saved? No- of course not but scripture teaches that all of us can be baptised in the Holy Spirit-and with that comes the ability to pray and praise in other tongues.

lets look at acts 2:5-13 when they spoke tongues where were the interptors
did not need any everyone in different tongues understood the other as they spoke and understood ..... work of power

know look at 1 cor 3:1-3 this church was carnal
what was there problem lots of things but with the gifts they had a problemwith thus
1 cor 12:4 diversities of gift by same spirit
1 cor 13:8 three gifts will be no more
1 cor 14:4 unknown tongue edifith himself
1 cor 14:5 for greater is he who prophesied except he who interpts that the church may receive edifying
1 cor 14:12 zealous of spiritual gifts [works of the flesh gal 5:19-21]
1 cor 14:14 for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful
1 cor 14:19 yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue
1 cor 14:22 wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them that believe 1 cor 1:22 act 10:44-46
1 cor 14:23 -24 rules
1 cor 14:27-28 no interptor be silence in the church
1 cor 14:33 God not the author of confusion, but of peace

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

 

[PatrickM]

1 cor 13:10 perfect is come

In the greek that word is a nueter [aka perfect thing]

and Jesus Christ is a mascline
and the Word of God is a feminine

so since my savior is not a thing what does it refer to

Gender in other languages is very misunderstood. Gender does not necessarily denote a male/female, as many languages require a gender-defined article, regardless of the noun following. For example, I believe in German, a table is considered feminine, hence the article "the" is "das".

Same for Greek. For example, the Holy Spirit is considered neuter as well, but we know He is considered a "He", as in John 16:13, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth."

The article for "the Spirit of truth" is in the neuter gender. But the language of the sentence is plain that the Holy Spirit is a male.

Therefore, one cannot eliminate Jesus from being "that which is perfect" merely on the Greek language's use of gender.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Gender in other languages is very misunderstood. Gender does not necessarily denote a male/female, as many languages require a gender-defined article, regardless of the noun following. For example, I believe in German, a table is considered feminine, hence the article "the" is "das".

Same for Greek. For example, the Holy Spirit is considered neuter as well, but we know He is considered a "He", as in John 16:13, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth."

The article for "the Spirit of truth" is in the neuter gender. But the language of the sentence is plain that the Holy Spirit is a male.

Therefore, one cannot eliminate Jesus from being "that which is perfect" merely on the Greek language's use of gender.

so do a word study on jesus.... and you will find out He is always male

 

[Iosias]

So lets see why they think tongues has been done away with.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (verse 9-10, NKJV)

ok, so many cessationists (like your Church i suspect) suppose this to be the clincher. so obviously they equate the "that which is perfect" with the obvious referrent - the canon of Scripture!? - i know its hard to believe they would even try to make such a claim. but many do. Paul would not have been teaching on the canon of scripture, he lived before any such talk - in fact the canon has to do with apostolic authority, not the cessation of these certain gifts. No the obvious reference here is to the return of Christ, who is perfection, and who will bring this world back to a state of perfection. Then, we will no longer need those incomplete revelations, for the full will be given.

Rubbish! that is NOT the cessationist case... well done for setting up the straw man argument...the only one you can win!

Here is the cessationist argument: 1 Corinthians 8-10 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

A careful study of the Greek shows that the similar word is used for "they shall fail" and "it shall vanish away" which translated means they will be stopped and we know that it is the arrival of the perfect that stops them! However a totally different meaning is attached to the Greek "they shall cease" which when translated means they will stop themselves i.e. nothing stops them other than themselves which is cooberated by the highlighed part i.e. verse 9. For we know in part (i.e. knowledge) and we prophesy in part (i.e. prophesies) but no mention of tongues...and then in verse 10 that which is done in part (knowledge and prophesy) will cease when the perfect comes...but we can see that the perfect does not stop tongues...why? Simple...they have ceased prior to the comming of the perfect!!

 

[onelamb]

Corinthians 13:8 says "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease" (KJV). Wouldn't this indicate the baptism in the Holy Spirit was only for those first followers 2,000 years ago?

In order to understand this statement we need to examine its context. Paul said that prophecies will cease, tongues will be stilled, knowledge will pass away, and perfection will come (verses 8-10). Paul was speaking of a time yet future both to his original readers and to us. When the kingdom of our Lord is ushered in, perfection will come and there will be no further need of Spirit-given knowledge, prophecy, and tongues. They will disappear because they will be no longer needed. But these operations of the Spirit are still needed today.

There is no indication in Scripture that tongues would cease at the end of the first century. Tongues are to be a part of the life of the church in every generation until Christ returns to set up His perfect kingdom. Paul's perception was that spiritual gifts would be operational until that day (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8).

When a person is baptised in the Holy Spirit =scripture gives every indication that they will speak in tongues-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6-In fact, tongues is the only consistant sign that this baptism has occured.
Peter said, "for this promise is to you, to your children and to all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL."

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Corinthians 13:8 says "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease" (KJV). Wouldn't this indicate the baptism in the Holy Spirit was only for those first followers 2,000 years ago?

1 cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts , but the same spirit

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will[determines]

In order to understand this statement we need to examine its context. Paul said that prophecies will cease, tongues will be stilled, knowledge will pass away, and perfection will come (verses 8-10). Paul was speaking of a time yet future both to his original readers and to us. When the kingdom of our Lord is ushered in, perfection will come and there will be no further need of Spirit-given knowledge, prophecy, and tongues. They will disappear because they will be no longer needed. But these operations of the Spirit are still needed today.

There is no indication in Scripture that tongues would cease at the end of the first century. Tongues are to be a part of the life of the church in every generation 1 cor 14:22-24 until Christ returns to set up His perfect kingdom. Paul's perception was that spiritual gifts would be operational until that day (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8).

When a person is baptised in the Holy Spirit =scripture gives every indication that they will speak in tongues-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6-In fact, tongues is the only consistant sign that this baptism has occured.
Peter said, "for this promise is to you, to your children and to all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL."

tongues were for the Jews 1 cor 1:22 since they were looking for signs! every example in acts with tongues an unbelieveing Jew hears tongues!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Corinthians 13:8 says "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease" (KJV). Wouldn't this indicate the baptism in the Holy Spirit was only for those first followers 2,000 years ago?

In order to understand this statement we need to examine its context. Paul said that prophecies will cease, tongues will be stilled, knowledge will pass away, and perfection will come (verses 8-10). Paul was speaking of a time yet future both to his original readers and to us. When the kingdom of our Lord is ushered in, perfection will come and there will be no further need of Spirit-given knowledge, prophecy, and tongues. They will disappear because they will be no longer needed. But these operations of the Spirit are still needed today.

There is no indication in Scripture that tongues would cease at the end of the first century. Tongues are to be a part of the life of the church in every generation until Christ returns to set up His perfect kingdom. Paul's perception was that spiritual gifts would be operational until that day (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8).

When a person is baptised in the Holy Spirit =scripture gives every indication that they will speak in tongues-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6-In fact, tongues is the only consistant sign that this baptism has occured.
Peter said, "for this promise is to you, to your children and to all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL."

First off, tongues are not a consistent sign. Not all believers have them/want them/need them. According to Paul, prophecy is much better.

Second, I think we can determine that knowledge, prophecy, and tongues will vanish when we hit perfection. Yet, the last prophecy of the Bible is heaven (see Revelation). Untill this is fulfilled, there is still unfulfilled prophecy. Therefore, we should have gifts untill the end of Revelation (heaven) comes to pass.