Gifts of the Spirit

[rainbowprism]

You know what guys, the issue of tongues has been addressed on many many other threads here. It is one of those issues that I don't see ever being completley resolved in either direction--luckily though this issue is of secondary nature to Christianity, there is no apostasty in either direction.

So, why don't we get back on track to the OP: What are your spiritual gifts?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi

I have a question

I'm a fairly new believer (1 yr) and have been looking for a church. I've found one I like but they say the miraculous signs such as tounges, prophecy, and healing were for a that specific time period. I don't know if I agree with this? All of the churches ofther beliefs I agree with. Does anyone know if this is correct or incorrect. I would really like to hear both sides, and backed up by scripture. Thanks

rainbow is trying to get off subject

 

[Iosias]

...there is no apostasty in either direction.

Hmmm...not true...The Holy Bible teaches that the gift of tongues has ceased so to teach that they have not is apostacy.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Hmmm...not true...The Holy Bible teaches that the gift of tongues has ceased so to teach that they have not is apostacy.

Do you have a verse by chance?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Do you have a verse by chance?

1 cor 13:8 i think

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

From what I've seen, this verse only works if one is a full preterist. As he is a pre mill disp, he probably has another one.

 

[Iosias]

Do you have a verse by chance?

The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. John MacArthur, in his commentary upon 1 Corinthians, distinguishes 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority. Now at Pentecost the purpose of gifts was to shew Israel that they were being set aside and were going to be judged which occured in AD70 therefore the purpose of cursing has ceased. Tongues were a sign of blessing because with Israel being set aside the door was being opened to the gentiles and so with the sign of blessing done the blessing purpose has ceased. And “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” and so with the authority purpose ceased all the purposes of tongues has ceased therefore the gift is no longer needed and has ceased.

see also here: http://www.christianforums.com/show...238#post8701238

1 Cor 13:8 teaches that the gift of tongues will cease. We also know what the purposes of tongues are from Hebrews 2:3, 4 and 2 Cor 12:12, 1 Cor 14. And so we can see that the purpose of gifts has ceased and so logically so has the gift itself because it is no longer needed.

And here: http://www.christianforums.com/t729283&page=1

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

2 Corinthians 12:12 refers specifically to apostles. Other "users" cannot be implied with this verse.

1 Corinthians 13:8 teaches that tongues will go away at the end of Revelation (still in the future, unless one is a partial preterist, which you are not) so this verse is not applicable.

Hebrews 2:4 says "according to his will." As we know the conditions for the removal of togues are not yet met, He still gives gifts out, according to His will.

1 Corinthians 14 is simply a "guide" on using gifts. I hope "strengthening, encouragement and comfort" are still in use today...

 

[Iosias]

2 Corinthians 12:12 refers specifically to apostles. Other "users" cannot be implied with this verse.

The signs of the apostle are unique to the apostles otherwise later Paul would not be able to justify his apostleship by pointing to his sign-gifts. So that is indeed my point...one purpose of the sign-gifts was to authenticate the apostles hence when they die the sign-gift dies with them.

1 Corinthians 13:8 teaches that tongues will go away at the end of Revelation (still in the future, unless one is a partial preterist, which you are not) so this verse is not applicable.

Actually I di dnot use 1 Cor 13:8 but here we go...
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the perfect comes prophesy and knowledge will be done away but tongues will have already ceased.

Hebrews 2:4 says "according to his will." As we know the conditions for the removal of togues are not yet met, He still gives gifts out, according to His will.

The purpose of tongues/sign-gifts were (1) to authenticate the apostles --- FINISHED, (2) Shew judgement to Israel --- FINISHED, (3) Shew blessing to Gentiles ---FINISHED. So all the purposes of the sign-gifts have ceased and so the gifts have ceased.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually I di dnot use 1 Cor 13:8 but here we go...
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the perfect comes prophesy and knowledge will be done away but tongues will have already ceased.

The purpose of tongues/sign-gifts were (1) to authenticate the apostles --- FINISHED, (2) Shew judgement to Israel --- FINISHED, (3) Shew blessing to Gentiles ---FINISHED. So all the purposes of the sign-gifts have ceased and so the gifts have ceased.

1) Quite so, but that point has not yet been reached. (and you did use it!)

2) Could not there also be a case made that a single sign would be enough to do each of these? But many signs were done. Why then should they stop when many people still don't believe?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1) Quite so, but that point has not yet been reached. (and you did use it!)

2) Could not there also be a case made that a single sign would be enough to do each of these? But many signs were done. Why then should they stop when many people still don't believe?

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

the verse with Christ in middle earth talking to the rich man that wanted him to tell his bothers that they do not what to be here?

where is this verse

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Luke 16:19-31

 

[Iosias]

1) Quite so, but that point has not yet been reached.

Which point has not yet been reached?

2) Could not there also be a case made that a single sign would be enough to do each of these?

That is not what the Holy Bible teaches.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Luke 16:19-31

now read

luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, through one rose from the dead.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Which point has not yet been reached?


That is not what the Holy Bible teaches.

1) The time when tongues will cease

2) Quite so. And the Bible does not teach that gifts have fully fulfilled their purpose either.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

now read

luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, through one rose from the dead.

But the Bible itself shows miracles. I am unsure of what you are trying to say

 

[Iosias]

1) The time when tongues will cease.

So when is the time that tongues will cease. Please provide scripture.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

From 1 Corinthians 13

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The change from child to man seems very much like the idea of resurrection (new body). As tongues are simply different languages, and different language still exist,, and becuase prophecy is still unfullfilled, and because we don't know fully, then it is not yet time. The time I do see for the fulfillment of all this is heaven, where we will not use language and we will know things fully.

 

[Iosias]

From 1 Corinthians 13

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The change from child to man seems very much like the idea of resurrection (new body). As tongues are simply different languages, and different language still exist,, and becuase prophecy is still unfullfilled, and because we don't know fully, then it is not yet time. The time I do see for the fulfillment of all this is heaven, where we will not use language and we will know things fully.

Lets actually look at the text:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Notice only prophesy and knowledge are "in part" and only those that are "in part" are "done away" when the "perfect comes". Tongues are not "in part" and so will not be "done away" when the "perfect comes". Because the "perfect" is the eternal state and tongues will not be in it for they "shall cease" so the only logical conclusion is that they will have ceased prior to the comming of the perfect!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Lets actually look at the text:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Notice only prophesy and knowledge are "in part" and only those that are "in part" are "done away" when the "perfect comes". Tongues are not "in part" and so will not be "done away" when the "perfect comes". Because the "perfect" is the eternal state and tongues will not be in it for they "shall cease" so the only logical conclusion is that they will have ceased prior to the comming of the perfect!

Actually, all will go away. And, one cannot disprove something's abolishment at perfection by it's exclusion in verse 10. The conclusion then is not valid.