Generic Oranges

[IronFire]

1) Humans can and do reject God's will for them.
(Psalm 81:11, Proverbs 1:24, Isaiah 30:15+, Luke 13:34)
2) God determines all events and his will is always done.

Nothing more than equivocation. "Will" has a different meaning in 1 and 2.

Calvanists agree God "wills" that all be saved and that God "wills" that not all are saved, but it's a different sense of "wills" each time.


I'll throw out a link here on God's two wills as viewed by an extreme calvanist:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world, and when we are placed in Christ, we share in Christ's election and become God's elect.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[Van]

God desires all men to be saved, but not all men are saved. Therefore God desires all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nothing more than equivocation. "Will" has a different meaning in 1 and 2.

Calvanists agree God "wills" that all be saved and that God "wills" that not all are saved, but it's a different sense of "wills" each time.


I'll throw out a link here on God's two wills as viewed by an extreme calvanist:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

Oh, that's good! The only example of Calvinism you're willing to even link to is "extreme" Calvinism...How dishonest is that???

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

God desires all men to be saved, but not all men are saved. Therefore God desires all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan.

Have you figured out that Day yet Van?

If God desired all to be saved, all would be saved;

Ephesians 1;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Tell us Van, did Jesus die for the Canaanites that God instructed the Israelites to kill, every man, woman and child?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Nothing more than equivocation. "Will" has a different meaning in 1 and 2.

Calvanists agree God "wills" that all be saved and that God "wills" that not all are saved, but it's a different sense of "wills" each time.


I'll throw out a link here on God's two wills as viewed by an extreme calvanist:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

If you think John Piper is an extreme Calvinist, then obviously you know nothing of Calvinism.

So, you deny the Scriptures that emphatically teach that there is an aspect of God's Will that God has revealed, and an aspect of God's Will that is secret and known to God only?

Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[Van]

General Redemption holds that Christ died for all mankind, but not necessarily for every individual that every lived. Folks who died before Christ died, without obtaining approval through faith in God, did not have an opportunity to obtain mercy. But this is no different from folks today who are born and die without any opportunity to trust in Christ. So the question becomes did Christ die for everyone in Adam, or just for those who will be placed in Christ? And the answer is Christ died for all mankind, even those who perish. So it is absolutely true that Christ died for those saved, the Church, and Christ died for folks who never become part of the Church. So the answer is not either or, the answer is both.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

General Redemption holds that Christ died for all mankind, but not necessarily for every individual that every lived. Folks who died before Christ died, without obtaining approval through faith in God, did not have an opportunity to obtain mercy.

The more you ramble on and rationalize the more your assertions are pelagian in nature.

Unfortunately, you cannot see in your own words that the conclusion is that man obtains mercy through what man does.

But this is no different from folks today who are born and die without any opportunity to trust in Christ. So the question becomes did Christ die for everyone in Adam, or just for those who will be placed in Christ? And the answer is Christ died for all mankind, even those who perish. So it is absolutely true that Christ died for those saved, the Church, and Christ died for folks who never become part of the Church. So the answer is not either or, the answer is both.

And all of that flatly omits and denies the propitiatory nature of the Atonement, leaving you with pelaginianism.

 

[cygnusx1]

Nothing more than equivocation. "Will" has a different meaning in 1 and 2.

Calvanists agree God "wills" that all be saved and that God "wills" that not all are saved, but it's a different sense of "wills" each time.


I'll throw out a link here on God's two wills as viewed by an extreme calvanist:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

It is true that Calvinists have an understanding of a divergence (variety and multiplicity , NOT duality !) in God 's will.

In one sense God delights , approves of all men being saved by trusting in God's Word and obeying the Gospel by Repenting and being Baptised. This is true , and God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Yet in another sense , God does will that sinners perish!

just ask yourself if God willed the Pharoah to Perish ..... yes or no ?


did God will the perishing of those in the Deluge , Noah's flood?

Yes or No ?

Did God will the perishing of those in Sodom and Gomorrah ........ yes or No dear reader ??

you see if God did not will the death of sinners , then no sinner would die , and they certainly would never die at the hand of God!

If God wills none to perish then the Flood , Soddom and Gomorrah and the Pharoah would all be accidents instead of coming directly from God !

should I write up a list of Scriptures that explicitly state God's will to kill certain sinners .........

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Amos 9:1 [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and he said, "Strike the tops of the pillars, that the thresholds may shake; and break them in pieces on the head of all of them; and I will kill the last of them with the sword: there shall not one of them flee away, and there shall not one of them escape. (WEB)​

I saw the Lord standing beside the altar: and he said, Smite the capitals, that the thresholds may shake; and break them in pieces on the head of all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: there shall not one of them flee away, and there shall not one of them escape. (ASV)​

I saw the Lord stationed by the side of the altar, giving blows to the tops of the pillars so that the doorsteps were shaking: and he said, I will let all of them be broken with earth-shocks; I will put the last of them to the sword: if any one of them goes in flight he will not get away, not one of them will be safe. (BBE)​

I saw the Lord standing upon the altar; and he said, Smite the chapiter that the thresholds may shake; and break all of them in pieces, in the head; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not get away by flight, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered. (DBY)​

I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered. (KJV)​

I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered. (WBS)​

I saw the Lord standing beside the altar; and He said: Smite the capitals, that the posts may shake; and break them in pieces on the head of all of them; and I will slay the residue of them with the sword; there shall not one of them flee away, and there shall not one of them escape. (JPS)​

I have seen the Lord standing by the altar, and He saith: 'Smite the knob, and the thresholds shake, And cut them off by the head -- all of them, And their posterity with a sword I do slay, Not flee to them doth the fleer, Nor escape to them doth a fugitive. (YLT)​

and here it is even clearer!!​

1 Samuel 2:22-25 (New King James Version)​

Prophecy Against Eli’s Household​

22 Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel,[a] and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 23 So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. 24 No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the LORD’s people transgress. 25 If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the LORD desired to kill them.​

Notice carefully that the reason the son's of Eli would not harken to their fathers voice was because the Lord Desired (willed) to kill them!​

BTW , John Piper is far from being an Extreme Calvinist , he believes in the Gospel Offer and common Grace ....... so do I.​

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[Van]

AWC, the more you try to avoid the scriptural basis of my position, the more your arguments shift to mere name calling. I ramble, I rationalize, I am a Peligan Heritic, that rejects the corruption of original sin. You follow this with a distortion of my postion, saying our depraved faith is somehow a righteous meritious act before God reckons it as righteousness. Folks, AWC has rounded up the usual suspects.

 

[Van]

God wills all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan. We do not need mumbo jumbo to make this concept complicated. It is simple. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. God says Here I am, Here I am, and exhorts us to choose life. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. A gospel a child can understand.

 

[cygnusx1]

God wills all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan. We do not need mumbo jumbo to make this concept complicated. It is simple. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. God says Here I am, Here I am, and exhorts us to choose life. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. A gospel a child can understand.

Van if God's will was that simple this web site (particularly Soteriology ) would not exist the way it does with debat and disagreement......... the truth is YOU believe Judas was destined for destruction ........... so quit the charade !

 

[Van]

Attacking me will not cut the mustard, God's will is simple, He desires all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan. And His plan, foretold in scripture, included that some were to be hardened, and so there opportunity was cut short. Judas was chosen to fulfill prophesy, but was devoted to darkness when chosen. A hypothetical is if Judas had been receptive to the gospel, if he had heard and LEARNED from the Father, before he met Jesus, would he have been chosen, or would Jesus who knows our hearts, have chosen some other devotee to darkness? I do not know, I do not believe scripture answers the question, but Judas fits perfectly with my presentation of the gospel, and your charge that I am presenting a charade is yet another attack on me, and therefore without merit.

 

[cygnusx1]

I repeat , you have stated Judas was destined for betraying Christ , you have also been involved in debating vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (need I trawl for the exact quotes ?)

so God's will is far from simple !!

 

[IronFire]

Oh, that's good! The only example of Calvinism you're willing to even link to is "extreme" Calvinism...How dishonest is that???

Dishonest?...I'm really not sure what you mean.

If you think John Piper is an extreme Calvinist, then obviously you know nothing of Calvinism.

Extreme Calvanism is different than hyper-Calvanism if thats you mean when you say Piper is not an extreme Calvanist. The book "Chosen But Free" by Normen Geisler identifies Piper as being in the EC camp, and everything I've read and understand so far makes me believe Piper is an extreme Calvanist, but I could be wrong.

So, you deny the Scriptures that emphatically teach that there is an aspect of God's Will that God has revealed, and an aspect of God's Will that is secret and known to God only?

Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I've never claimed to be a Calvanist or hold the views of Piper.
Obviously I'm not purposly outright denying the scriptures
I'm not sure that verse means what you imply it means. What are the "secret things"?
And one verse doesn't qualify as emphatical teaching...

 

[cygnusx1]

Dishonest?...I'm really not sure what you mean.



Extreme Calvanism is different than hyper-Calvanism if thats you mean when you say Piper is not an extreme Calvanist. The book "Chosen But Free" by Normen Geisler identifies Piper as being in the EC camp, and everything I've read and understand so far makes me believe Piper is an extreme Calvanist, but I could be wrong.



I've never claimed to be a Calvanist or hold the views of Piper.
Obviously I'm not purposly outright denying the scriptures
I'm not sure that verse means what you imply it means. What are the "secret things"?
And one verse doesn't qualify as emphatical teaching...

LOL ....... ROFL


of course if you are going to compare Piper with Normen Geisler then Piper is of course an extreme Calvinist , we all are compared to the confused 'Arminian' Geisler !!!

read 'The Potter's Freedom' by James R White (A defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal of Norman Geislers 'Chosen but Free' )

 

[IronFire]

LOL ....... ROFL


of course if you are going to compare Piper with Normen Geisler then Piper is of course an extreme Calvinist , we all are compared to the confused 'Arminian' Geisler !!!

read 'The Potter's Freedom' by James R White (A defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal of Norman Geislers 'Chosen but Free' )

Actually 'Chosen But Free' has a pretty devastating rebuttle of 'The Potter's Freedom'

And Geisler isn't an Arminian...

 

[Van]

Absolutely because you are mischaracterizing what I said and meant. We were all, including Judas, fitted for destruction by the fall. But that does not preclude in a fallen state, trusing in Christ. That view (fall resulting in total inability) is yours and for your to ascribe it to me is wrong.

Next, the betrayal of Jesus is foretold in Scripture, and God fulfilled that prophecy by bring about the acts of Judas. Even when God foretells the name of a person who will do thus and so years in the future, it is unnecessary to assume the person exists in some preconcieved spiritual state, but only that God at the time of His choosing, will cause a person born to be named the name, and then intervene in the circumstances affecting the named person as necessary to fullfill the prophecy.

And this is exactly what scrpture teaches. God makes things happen according to His predetermined plans. See Acts 2:23 for example.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

AWC, the more you try to avoid the scriptural basis of my position, the more your arguments shift to mere name calling. I ramble, I rationalize, I am a Peligan Heritic, that rejects the corruption of original sin. You follow this with a distortion of my postion, saying our depraved faith is somehow a righteous meritious act before God reckons it as righteousness. Folks, AWC has rounded up the usual suspects.

No Van, we cite Scripture that flatly refutes your assertions, and all you cite are passages that you can take out of context of the entirety of Scripture that you think shows God choosing to save a man because God has found some inherent good qualities within that man, and you do it every time.

As long as you choose to cherrypick snippets that you think make your point of God saving man due to finding inherently good qualities, then all you do is support and prove your love for pelagianism.

 

[Van]

Yet more unsupport charges of cherry picking. Now I love cherry pie, warm with cold vanilla ice cream, but you pick cherries in an orchard of God's cherry trees.

I have shown that all, repeat all, the verses used to support the mistaken views of RT actually do not support the RT views without unwarrented inferences being pour into the text. And may of these same scriptures actually teach that the RT view is mistaken when contexually considered. So, instead of defending the RT view, I am charged with cherry picking. But since my view meshes with all scripture, contextually considered, it is the advocates of RT who are up on the ladder, sampling God's fruit.