Generic Oranges

[nobdysfool]

Yet another falsehood, no quote will be forthcoming where I say God has a limited mind. God's mind is beyond our poor ability to comprehend. [/font]

I say the inspired word describes God as if He had a physical body, which is but a figurative illustration, but the attribute being illustrated (eyes for awarness, head turning to indicate God's attention shifting, etc) are valid attributes of God.

God can know what He choses to know, and can not know what He choses not to know, because God is all-powerful. To say God is incapable of doing exactly what scripture says He does is mistaken.

As usual, scripture is on my side, and RT claims scripture does not mean what it says.

It seems that your repeating mantra over and over again is "I am right because RT is wrong". Reformed Theology must really be a threat to you, because you are so adamant on trying to stand on top of it to lift yourself and your theories up. You have yet to correctly state any of Reformed Theology's many points, let alone prove any part of Reformed Theology wrong, try though you have. If it wasn't so serious, it might actually be funny watching you dash yourself again and again against the rocks of Reformed Theology. All the bluff and bluster and strutting around and preening, making bold declarations and claiming you have won the argument, all the while avoiding answering direct questions, is actually somewhat entertaining, except for the fact that you wind up promoting a non-orthodox patchwork of theories, a smorgasbord theology. That part is rather sad.

 

[cygnusx1]

And I hoped you would have the good grace to admit scripture is on my side.

that would not be good grace of me to encourage a person in error ..............

If I quoted a scripture to show God Repents and Changes His mind , I would sincerely hope I was Biblically and charitably corrected for my misunderstanding ............ Just as there are many scriptures that show God does not change and does not repent , so there are many that show God knows everything ........

you have taken one verse in order to undermine exaustive complete knowledge in God.

 

[Van]

The Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation, and correctly understood, contains no contraditions. When apparent contradictions arise, that is a red flag that our understanding of scripture is mistaken.

God does not change, but what does that mean. It means He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. His attributes do not change, He is just, loving, and Holy. But God makes conditional covenants, if you do this, I will do that. If you eat of the tree.... God alters His course based on changed circumstances, if we repent, then He will relent.

“But it shall be that if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground,'" (Exodus 4:9).”
This verse clearly teaches that God establishes contingent plans, if someone does this, then I will do that, if they do something else, then I will do this other thing. So again, this verse does not address whether of not God had searched the hearts of those in view and knew what they would do given the circumstance, all it says is that God established plans contingent upon the response of men. And this pattern of behavior of God toward men can be found throughout the bible. He who believes shall not perish, but he who does not believe is condemned already for an example from John 3:16-17.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

This verse clearly teaches that God establishes contingent plans, if someone does this, then I will do that, if they do something else, then I will do this other thing. So again, this verse does not address whether of not God had searched the hearts of those in view and knew what they would do given the circumstance, all it says is that God established plans contingent upon the response of men.

Van's false assumption is based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.

Van says Scripture is not contradictory, yet Van's false assumption assumes that Scripture is contradictory.

In the case of Pharoah and the Egyptians, Van has to assume that Paul and Scripture is in contradiction to his misapplication of the Scriptures when Paul cites OT Scripture, saying;

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

As opposed to God being purposeful, Van's god is reactionary, having to devise contingent plans because his god does not know the end from the beginning.

 

[Van]

Van's false assumption is based on a misunderstanding of Scripture.

Dismissive assertion without merit.

Van says Scripture is not contradictory, yet Van's false assumption assumes that Scripture is contradictory.

I do not assume Scripture is contradictory, as my post stated. To say that I do is simply a slander. Pay no attention to what the RT advocates say of my position, they misrepresent it without quotes to create strawmen. Note the "G" in God is not in caps. Yet another slander implying that I do not believe in the Father of Christ. The advocates of RT cannot defend RT from scripture, so they attack opponents and post falsehoods.

As opposed to God being purposeful, Van's god is reactionary, having to devise contingent plans because his god does not know the end from the beginning.

Yet another falsehood, with any quote to back it up. AWC is simply posting falsehoods because scripture supports my position.

The truth is my position is God's actions are according to His purpose and plan, and these actions include exercising deterministic control over events predestined, and keeping His contingent covenants with mankind.

God raised Pharaoh to may His deliverance more glorious, which was according to His purpose and plan. These limited interventions to bring about His predetermined plan are consistent with my view, and contradictory to the one size fits all - God only acts in one manner - theology of RT. The view of RT simply does not mesh with scripture.

Ephesians 1:4 teaches God chose Christ before the foundation of the world, and therefore when we are placed in Christ, we share in Christ's election, hence we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. God chose the ark of salvation before creation, and therefore anyone put into the ark shares in God's selection.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Dismissive assertion without merit.[/font]

No Van, like yourself, I say you are wrong because I say so. Nothing more is needed.

I do not assume Scripture is contradictory, as my post stated.

Saying it and actually demonstrating that is what you hold to are two entirely different things.

It has already been demonstrated time after time, that you assume Scripture is contradictory.

I'm just using your own tactics Van. You are wrong because I say you are wrong, just like you do.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation, and correctly understood, contains no contraditions. When apparent contradictions arise, that is a red flag that our understanding of scripture is mistaken.

God does not change, but what does that mean. It means He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. His attributes do not change, He is just, loving, and Holy. But God makes conditional covenants, if you do this, I will do that. If you eat of the tree.... God alters His course based on changed circumstances, if we repent, then He will relent.

“But it shall be that if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground,'" (Exodus 4:9).”
This verse clearly teaches that God establishes contingent plans, if someone does this, then I will do that, if they do something else, then I will do this other thing. So again, this verse does not address whether of not God had searched the hearts of those in view and knew what they would do given the circumstance, all it says is that God established plans contingent upon the response of men. And this pattern of behavior of God toward men can be found throughout the bible. He who believes shall not perish, but he who does not believe is condemned already for an example from John 3:16-17.

you are dealing with anthrpomorphisms .when God is said to repent or change His mind , nothing more ............

We are told that God does not change His mind or make plans that need altering , He does not Repent !

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Malachi 3:6

6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
James 1:17

King James Version (KJV)


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.



Van , your attempts at diminishing God's absolute Knowledge of all things based upon God choosing to forget our sins is disgaceful.

 

[Van]

Those that deny the word of God, who say those verses do not count are the ones offering unbiblical views.

RT's solution to contradictions to their doctrine is to dismiss the verses, rather than adjust their doctrine. Scripture says God does not repent and scripture says God repents. What a poor student would do is cherry pick scripture, this one I believe, this one I dismiss. What a real student does is study the two passages in context until the consistent truth in both passages is discovered. And as I have shown, we circumstances change, God changes His response action. This is not a change of mind, God's course was clear, you do this, then I do that, you do something else and I will do something else. So no wishy washy God who does not know the end is in view, that is open theism.

I have addressed that God does not change and its meaning, and since you post as if you did not understand, all I see is more shawshank defense.

Van , your attempts at diminishing God's absolute Knowledge of all things based upon God choosing to forget our sins is disgaceful.

I adore God and raise Him up, RT diminishes God by denying the verses that show RT is a mistaken view of schripture. Your charges demonstrate you defend you views by attacking you opponent, a sure sign you know your views are without foundation in scripture.

 

[Van]

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

The meaning of Ephesians 1:4 has been presented with contextual clarity. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him, and does not say we were chosen as foreseen individuals.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[TruthMiner]

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

The meaning of Ephesians 1:4 has been presented with contextual clarity. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him, and does not say we were chosen as foreseen individuals.

You have the right idea.

1. Before the foundation of the world, Christ was chosen. Same idea at 1 Peter 1:20.

2. "Us in him" refers to the body of Christ. Christians are members of the Chosen One's body.

3. By coming to be in him, we members of the Chosen One's body, are also then necessarily chosen.

Just as we become sons of God by virtue of being in the Son of God, we become the Elect of God by virtue of being in the Elect One of God.

The verse says absolutely nothing about God determining who would become a Christian.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

you are dealing with anthrpomorphisms .when God is said to repent or change His mind , nothing more ............

We are told that God does not change His mind or make plans that need altering , He does not Repent !

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Malachi 3:6

6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
James 1:17

King James Version (KJV)


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.



Van , your attempts at diminishing God's absolute Knowledge of all things based upon God choosing to forget our sins is disgaceful.

Once again, it is proven that Van does indeed assume that the Scriptures are contradictory. Good job.

 

[TruthMiner]

Once again, it is proven that Van does indeed assume that the Scriptures are contradictory. Good job.

Why do you play these games?

It also seems you have difficulty distinguishing between:

1. Someone contradicting the Scriptures

2. Someone contradicting your interpretation of the Scriptures.

Perhaps, when it appears someone is contradicting the Scriptures to you, you should ask them specifically how their belief fits with a certain passage.

Else, we know you refuse to learn anything but that which suits your needs.

 

[Van]

Hi Truth Miner,

You have the right idea.

1. Before the foundation of the world, Christ was chosen. Same idea at 1 Peter 1:20.

2. "Us in him" refers to the body of Christ. Christians are members of the Chosen One's body.

3. By coming to be in him, we members of the Chosen One's body, are also then necessarily chosen.

Just as we become sons of God by virtue of being in the Son of God, we become the Elect of God by virtue of being in the Elect One of God.

The verse says absolutely nothing about God determining who would become a Christian.

Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes, glory be. It is nice to meet a person who has come to the same conclusions after actually studying the Bible.

 

[cygnusx1]

Those that deny the word of God, who say those verses do not count are the ones offering unbiblical views.

RT's solution to contradictions to their doctrine is to dismiss the verses, rather than adjust their doctrine. Scripture says God does not repent and scripture says God repents. What a poor student would do is cherry pick scripture, this one I believe, this one I dismiss.

show where anyone is dismissing scripture ......... if you cannot show it why do you say it ???

What a real student does is study the two passages in context until the consistent truth in both passages is discovered. And as I have shown, we circumstances change, God changes His response action. This is not a change of mind, God's course was clear, you do this, then I do that, you do something else and I will do something else. So no wishy washy God who does not know the end is in view, that is open theism.

no-one has denied conditionality in saome of God's dealings with sinners ................. so your point is mute.
what we are talking about is God and His knowledge.

Psalm 147:4 says God counts and names the stars. Matthew 10:29 and 30 relates that God knows what is happening in the life of relatively worthless sparrows, and knows the number of hairs on our heads, indicating with Proverbs 15:3, that God knows everything He chooses to know concerning the present status of creation.

you are deliberately missing the point , you have made a claim that God chooses some things to know ......... I asked how can God choose some things to know that He did't know ........
then you went looking for a scripture , anyone you could find that you thought would back you up ....... God is said not to remember our sins anymore , a straight forward accepted hyperbole ........... Even the Righteous will be judged for everything they have done !!!!!
but you are engaging in deflection , your assertion was that "God knows everything He chooses to know concerning the present status of creation" ........ this has nothing to do with sins being forgiven and "forgotten" ............

I have addressed that God does not change and its meaning, and since you post as if you did not understand, all I see is more shawshank defense.

all you have done is stuck your nose in the air .......... and continue in that frame......


[/size][/font][/color]
I adore God and raise Him up, RT diminishes God by denying the verses that show RT is a mistaken view of schripture. Your charges demonstrate you defend you views by attacking you opponent, a sure sign you know your views are without foundation in scripture.[/quote]

change the record man , the needle is blunt .......and so is the generic fruit arguement.

 

[nobdysfool]

The part of his fruity argument that really cracks me up is saying that he is planning to go to the market to purchase oranges, so by choosing the crate to put them in, he chooses the oranges, before he has even gone to the market, because "no plan of his can be thwarted".

I thought only God could say that.

James seemed to think so:

Jam 4:13-16 KJV Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: (14) Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. (15) For that ye ough to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. (16) But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

​

Van must really be proud of that little treatise, he keeps repeating it over and over again. He must like seeing it up on the screen.

 

[Van]

you are deliberately missing the point , you have made a claim that God chooses some things to know ......... I asked how can God choose some things to know that He did't know ........

There you go again... Saying I miss the point on purpose, when I addresed the point. My God, with a capital G, is God Amighty and can do anything scripture says He does. Jeremiah 32:35 indicates God did not know stuff, QED. I do not dismiss scripture, but you do and this is just one of many.

The point of God dealing with us conditionally is that when God responds to our decisions, He is not changing His mind as we do when we see we were mistaken, He is simply sticking to view that if we do this, He will do that and if we repent, He will relent.

God is said not to remember our sins anymore , a straight forward accepted hyperbole ....

There you go again, dismissing the inspired word as hyperbole. Jeremiah 31:34 is the inspired word of God, and it says God both forgives our sins and then does not remember them. To say He does remember them, that He is unable to forget stuff, is to belittle God. RT cherry picks scripture, then dismisses the scriptures that indicate RT does not mesh with scripture. This is a classic example.

 

[Van]

13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. (James 4:13-16)

Yet another silly attack on the illustration, first the store had no oranges, only grapefruit, and because I am not God, my plan might be thwarted by such a circumstance. Now my plan is thwarted because God's will precludes it. But the illustration is to illustrate God's action, so the objections are without merit.

 

[nobdysfool]

There you go again... Saying I miss the point on purpose, when I addresed the point. My God, with a capital G, is God Amighty and can do anything scripture says He does. Jeremiah 32:35 indicates God did not know stuff, QED. I do not dismiss scripture, but you do and this is just one of many.

You are the one who has to reconcile how God can both know and not know things, when He is Omniscient. No one is dismissing scriptures here, Van. The accusation is a deflection.

The point of God dealing with us conditionally is that when God responds to our decisions, He is not changing His mind as we do when we see we were mistaken, He is simply sticking to view that if we do this, He will do that and if we repent, He will relent.

The flaw in your thinking is assuming that God experiences time in the same fashion as we do. His Word is written in a way that the human mind can grasp, in terms of progression of events, the appearance of conditional interaction, etc. God, being God, already knows and has always known the outcome of any series of events that has ever taken or will ever take place. Therefore, His apparent reaction is not some adjusting or conditional response on His part, but rather changing perception on our part.

There you go again, dismissing the inspired word as hyperbole. Jeremiah 31:34 is the inspired word of God, and it says God both forgives our sins and then does not remember them.

More deflection. To say He does not remember them is to say that He no longer will take them into account against us, because they have been dealt with. To say that He forgets them in the sense that He ceases to be able to even recall what they were is the hyperbole. He can choose and does choose not to bring them to mind, but to say that He can no longer even recall them or that they happened is to accuse God of a celestial-spiritual form of Alzheimer's disease. I do not believe that is what He meant.

To say He does remember them, that He is unable to forget stuff, is to belittle God. RT cherry picks scripture, then dismisses the scriptures that indicate RT does not mesh with scripture. This is a classic example.

Again with the slams against Reformed Theology, a constant refrain you employ, to try to elevate yourself at someone else's expense. You have mis-stated what Cygnus said, and purposely misconstrued it. I have offered the most reasonable and logical explanation, which I know you will reject, simply because I said it. Aapparently you have forgotten the times when, in other threads, you made a correct statement, and I agreed with you and backed you up. I can see now that perhaps I should have not said anything, because it is certain that you have no inclination to show reciprocal regard, such is your problem with Reformed Theology and those who hold to it.

 

[Van]

Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God, sealed forever and predestined to eternal happiness with my Creator.

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God, sealed forever and predestined to eternal happiness with my Creator.