General questions..

[Isolation]

Hello I was told to come here.

Why do you keep the Sabbath?
Why do you keep dietary laws?
And also do you guys ask for forgiveness of sins?

What do you view as atonement in general?
Or what do you say that you could do or not do that would void the atonement Christ did?

Thank you for your advice.

 

[Stryder06]

Why do you keep the Sabbath?

We believe that the ten commandments as a whole are still binding as they are God's moral code. AS such, to break the 4th commandment would be no different then breaking 1-3 or 5-10

Why do you keep dietary laws?

God's initial plan for man was a completely vegetarian lifestyle. The dietary laws are meant to aid in keeping us in good health. Our bodies are the temple of the Lord God and as such we should take good care of them

And also do you guys ask for forgiveness of sins?

Yes

What do you view as atonement in general?

Not sure if I'm understanding this question but atonement was made at the cross. As such we believe that all those who ask for forgiveness of their sins and those who seek Christ as their Savior will be saved.

Or what do you say that you could do or not do that would void the atonement Christ did?

Nothing we can do can "void" the atonement of Christ however Christ says "If you love Me, keep my commandments". Not to enter into an argument about what those commandments are, suffice it to say that obedience is a sure sign that one is a follower of Christ.

 

[Isolation]

Eep I have a lot of disagreements with sda D:

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Eep I have a lot of disagreements with sda D:

Besides the Sabbath issue, what do you disagree with us on?

 

[OldStudent]

Hello I was told to come here.

Welcome and I hope you find what you came here for. Blessings to you in your search. Please take my reply as my personal responses. I am not speaking for the church though they come from what I have learned in its context.

Why do you keep the Sabbath?

"God is love." We know that time and fellowship are required to nurture and maintain love. God built a designated time into creation via the 7th day to fulfill that necessity of Himself with us. It was valuable enough to Him that He saw to it that it was given a central place in the code written by His own finger in stone. Jesus showed it was valuable to Him by His claim of lordship over it. He took a lot of heat, even death threats, as He defended the Sabbath. Books have been written but this is enough for me.

Why do you keep dietary laws?

You put kerosene in your car it won't run well. God addressed our "fueling" requirements. To stay brief, the "clean" and "unclean" designations can be seen to have a basis in safety. In the background I hear God saying: "If you are going to use flesh foods these are the best (the "clean" ones) and here is how to make it as safe as possible (drain the blood and remove the fat)." The dietary rules are not a matter of covenant - they are a matter of health (Ex 15:26; Deut 7:15). Check out the "discoveries" and current teaching of medical science.

And also do you guys ask for forgiveness of sins?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness" 1 Jn 1:9. To ask forgiveness is to acknowledge our sickness (under sin we are by definition mentally ill) and is a necessary step in our healing - in letting Him create in us as clean heart.

What do you view as atonement in general?
Or what do you say that you could do or not do that would void the atonement Christ did?

A key part of the Sanctuary ceremonies was that when a person came to realize his guilt he brought a lamb to the gate of the courtyard, confessed his sin on the head of the lamb, and personally took the life of the lamb. We must confess our sin and realize our particiption in the consequence of our sin. Jesus is the real Lamb - we took part in causing His death. His death becomes the death we earned. Jesus' death at Calvary is not the atonement - it enabled it. We must willingly accept it as a gift and allow Him to work with us and in us to appropriate it and allow the at-one-ment to happen. This isn't just confess it and keep on - personal reformation and transformation must follow it up. I can void the atonement for me just by not allowing it. As other aspects of the Sactuary services indicate, once we have given Him our sin He has more administrative duties to deal with its final disposition.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

A key part of the Sanctuary ceremonies was that when a person came to realize his guilt he brought a lamb to the gate of the courtyard, confessed his sin on the head of the lamb, and personally took the life of the lamb. We must confess our sin and realize our particiption in the consequence of our sin. Jesus is the real Lamb - we took part in causing His death. His death becomes the death we earned. Jesus' death at Calvary is not the atonement - it enabled it. We must willingly accept it as a gift and allow Him to work with us and in us to appropriate it and allow the at-one-ment to happen. This isn't just confess it and keep on - personal reformation and transformation must follow it up. I can void the atonement for me just by not allowing it. As other aspects of the Sactuary services indicate, once we have given Him our sin He has more administrative duties to deal with its final disposition.

Great explanation of the atonement process!!

 

[Isolation]

Great explanation of the atonement process!!

I am in somewhat disagreement with it
You don't "confess your sins" onto the head of the animal, you pass your sin to it by laying your hands onto it. Lev 16:20-22 says he confessed all the sins, then laid his hands on the scapegoat and passed it to the animal, where it carried it into the wilderness. much how like christ and john the baptist thingy is, john being a descendant of aaron and sending christ away into the wilderness as soon as he testified he took the worlds sin; its cool. but anyways

I see your answers to them but am still confused on the dietary thing. It is not a requirement is it? And the sabbath, I am getting confused at.

Scenario, someone is born again by faith in the atonement of Christ by repenting to admit his evilness and change his ways and belief. Then for this person, if he did not keep sabbaths would he lose the salvation of Christ? Or would it not really matter? If not keeping the sabbath voids what Christ has done, then wouldnt that sort of be like putting the atonement into your own hands?

Genuine questions, not starting arguments..

god bless

 

[Stryder06]

Atonement: compensation for a wrong

I'd say that atonement was made at the cross which allowed for us to be able to be recipients of God's forgiveness.

 

[Stryder06]

I am in somewhat disagreement with it
You don't "confess your sins" onto the head of the animal, you pass your sin to it by laying your hands onto it. Lev 16:20-22 says he confessed all the sins, then laid his hands on the scapegoat and passed it to the animal, where it carried it into the wilderness. much how like christ and john the baptist thingy is, john being a descendant of aaron and sending christ away into the wilderness as soon as he testified he took the worlds sin; its cool. but anyways

What you're speaking of here is the sacrifice that was done on the day of atonement which happened annually. Daily, however, when sin was committed, a sacrifice by the perpetrator had to be made. This is what OldStudent was talking about in his response.

I see your answers to them but am still confused on the dietary thing. It is not a requirement is it? And the sabbath, I am getting confused at.

Scenario, someone is born again by faith in the atonement of Christ by repenting to admit his evilness and change his ways and belief. Then for this person, if he did not keep sabbaths would he lose the salvation of Christ? Or would it not really matter? If not keeping the sabbath voids what Christ has done, then wouldnt that sort of be like putting the atonement into your own hands?

Genuine questions, not starting arguments..

god bless

Let me ask you like this: Do you think that a person who willfully disobey's God will be allowed to enter into His kingdom? Revelation 21:14 says: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

S/N: I was looking that text up on Biblegateway.com and the NIV version translates it as Blessed are those who wash their robes.Suffice it to say I was speechless.

Anywho, the issues about keeping the sabbath and dietary laws are actually secondary to the issue of being obedient to God or to man. That's what it really comes down to. The arguments against the sabbath and health laws are circular. If commandments 1-3 and 5-10 are still applicable, why wouldn't the 4th one be? And what is the purpose behind diet laws if not to aid in me living a healthier life?

Hopefully that helps some. I'm trying to keep it simple for you without getting all theological.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I am in somewhat disagreement with it
You don't "confess your sins" onto the head of the animal, you pass your sin to it by laying your hands onto it. Lev 16:20-22 says he confessed all the sins, then laid his hands on the scapegoat and passed it to the animal, where it carried it into the wilderness. much how like christ and john the baptist thingy is, john being a descendant of aaron and sending christ away into the wilderness as soon as he testified he took the worlds sin; its cool. but anyways

I see your answers to them but am still confused on the dietary thing. It is not a requirement is it? And the sabbath, I am getting confused at.

Scenario, someone is born again by faith in the atonement of Christ by repenting to admit his evilness and change his ways and belief. Then for this person, if he did not keep sabbaths would he lose the salvation of Christ? Or would it not really matter? If not keeping the sabbath voids what Christ has done, then wouldnt that sort of be like putting the atonement into your own hands?

Genuine questions, not starting arguments..

god bless

First, the transferring of the sins to the scapegoat was done on the day of atonement and will be fulfilled when the sins of the righteous are placed upon Satan. What Stryder was refering to was the individual sin sacrifice.

As far as your question about the Sabbath, if it is one of the Ten Commandments and the Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law, then to willfully be breaking the fourth Commandment, is sin. It would be no different than if you were willfully sleeping with your neighbours spouse and hoping for salvation. We cannot be saved in sin, we must be striving to overcome it with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Isolation]

What you're speaking of here is the sacrifice that was done on the day of atonement which happened annually. Daily, however, when sin was committed, a sacrifice by the perpetrator had to be made. This is what OldStudent was talking about in his response.



Let me ask you like this: Do you think that a person who willfully disobey's God will be allowed to enter into His kingdom? Revelation 21:14 says: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

S/N: I was looking that text up on Biblegateway.com and the NIV version translates it as Blessed are those who wash their robes.Suffice it to say I was speechless.

Anywho, the issues about keeping the sabbath and dietary laws are actually secondary to the issue of being obedient to God or to man. That's what it really comes down to. The arguments against the sabbath and health laws are circular. If commandments 1-3 and 5-10 are still applicable, why wouldn't the 4th one be? And what is the purpose behind diet laws if not to aid in me living a healthier life?

Hopefully that helps some. I'm trying to keep it simple for you without getting all theological.

Didn't Christ fulfill the requirement of the law in us though?

 

[Isolation]

First, the transferring of the sins to the scapegoat was done on the day of atonement and will be fulfilled when the sins of the righteous are placed upon Satan. What Stryder was refering to was the individual sin sacrifice.

As far as your question about the Sabbath, if it is one of the Ten Commandments and the Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law, then to willfully be breaking the fourth Commandment, is sin. It would be no different than if you were willfully sleeping with your neighbours spouse and hoping for salvation. We cannot be saved in sin, we must be striving to overcome it with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I do think it is a requirement to produce fruits worthy of repentance.
That is one of the reasons of Johns ministry.
But on the other hand when I think of the law I can't help but think of
a couple select passages,

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Phillipians 3:3-11
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

From the above We have Paul who recalled and said he was the worst sinner. On the other hand he says he is quite the opposite in the other when he was doing the law. But he said 'no confidence in the flesh' then he brings up everything else. In particular here I have brought up when he said 'conerncing the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.' So Paul said he kept the law blamelessly. But he also said he gave it up, to believe, didn't he?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I do think it is a requirement to produce fruits worthy of repentance.
That is one of the reasons of Johns ministry.
But on the other hand when I think of the law I can't help but think of
a couple select passages,

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Phillipians 3:3-11
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

From the above We have Paul who recalled and said he was the worst sinner. On the other hand he says he is quite the opposite in the other when he was doing the law. But he said 'no confidence in the flesh' then he brings up everything else. In particular here I have brought up when he said 'conerncing the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.' So Paul said he kept the law blamelessly. But he also said he gave it up, to believe, didn't he?

You are correct in what Paul was saying, however there is no righteousness in the Law. You see, this was the problem the Jews had was a misunderstanding of what the Law represented. They made it about righteousness through works, where we do our works because of the righteousness through Christ. He is our only hope. The Law still reveals our sinful nature but is not the mechanism for our salvation....

Hope that made sense.

 

[Stryder06]

Didn't Christ fulfill the requirement of the law in us though?

The requirement of the law was filled either through strict and complete obedience, or by death of the transgressor. Christ paid our penalty as transgressors, and now is working in and through us to make us completely obedience to Him.

Honestly I'm doing a study on the earthly sanctuary, which is patterned after the heavenly one, and I tell ya what, you'd be amazed at what you can learn about Christ and the plan of salvation in that system.

 

[OldStudent]

I am in somewhat disagreement with it. You don't "confess your sins" onto the head of the animal, you pass your sin to it by laying your hands onto it. Lev 16:20-22 says he confessed all the sins, then laid his hands on the scapegoat and passed it to the animal, where it carried it into the wilderness. much how like christ and john the baptist thingy is, john being a descendant of aaron and sending christ away into the wilderness as soon as he testified he took the worlds sin; its cool. but anyways

My brevity caught up with me. You are right. The confessor was in touch with the head (can we say the mind of the?) (L)lamb as he confessed his sin.
The confessor through the blood of the lamb he sacrificed had effectively transfered his sin into the Sanctuary for the priest (Christ) finish dealing with. The Lev 16 passage is part of the Priestly administrative work to deal with the final disposition of sin. The confessor is sure interested and watching but not participating.

I see your answers to them but am still confused on the dietary thing. It is not a requirement is it?

It is with some hesitation that I return this observation to you: I did a quick search on the word "abomination." The returns startled me. Let know what you think. I used the online BibleGateway.com and seached the King James Bible.

And the sabbath, I am getting confused at.

My angle of approach to the Sabbath changed in the last year from legal to relational. It is new to me as well. Can you help me see what is puzzling you?

Scenario, someone is born again by faith in the atonement of Christ by repenting to admit his evilness and change his ways and belief. Then for this person, if he did not keep sabbaths would he lose the salvation of Christ? Or would it not really matter? If not keeping the sabbath voids what Christ has done, then wouldnt that sort of be like putting the atonement into your own hands?

If you read the first several verses of Romans 14 you will see that if faith is not ready to receive a teaching then the attempt to teach becomes "vain disputation." If you read the last verse of Romans 14 you will find that whatever is not of faith is sin. Ouch! So the most basic matter is to face Jesus the Christ as your salvation and redemer. Then, in due time, the rest will come and make sense as it will benefit you. Note Acts 2:37-39 and Acts 8:26-39. The hearers faced Jesus and responded in heart felt need which lead to baptism. They didn't wait for a college class in theology. You can be sure much teaching followed. Now, if in the course of the teaching/discipling the student reached a point where he rebelled ("Uh, Uh, I ain't doin' that") then his standing in salvation becomes a matter of question. No, we are not saved BY works because as He works in us the things we do will change.

Yes, in a very real sense the atonement is in our hands - we have a choice whether or not to receive it. If God didn't permit us the choice we are either mere automotons who have no say or He is the ultimate atrocious despot forcing His way on us.

 

[ricker]

The SDA is like a big umbrella with many views under it, you just have to find where you fit in.

The thing about Adventism is they have 28(?) very specific doctrinal beliefs they expect you to agree with, don't they (you)?

 

[tall73]

Not sure if I'm understanding this question but atonement was made at the cross.

Your statement is in line with Adventist fundamental belief 9.


9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)



However, can you please address Adventist fundamental belief 24?


24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)



Can you explain the Adventist belief in the second and last phase of the atonement, starting in the year 1844, for the person asking for information on the Adventist view of atonement?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Can you explain the Adventist belief in the second and last phase of the atonement, starting in the year 1844, for the person asking for information on the Adventist view of atonement?

I think Old Student did this very well in post #9

A key part of the Sanctuary ceremonies was that when a person came to realize his guilt he brought a lamb to the gate of the courtyard, confessed his sin on the head of the lamb, and personally took the life of the lamb. We must confess our sin and realize our particiption in the consequence of our sin. Jesus is the real Lamb - we took part in causing His death. His death becomes the death we earned. Jesus' death at Calvary is not the atonement - it enabled it. We must willingly accept it as a gift and allow Him to work with us and in us to appropriate it and allow the at-one-ment to happen. This isn't just confess it and keep on - personal reformation and transformation must follow it up. I can void the atonement for me just by not allowing it. As other aspects of the Sactuary services indicate, once we have given Him our sin He has more administrative duties to deal with its final disposition.

In the fundamental beliefs, #2 at first seems to be at odds with #24 but if you read #2 with the understanding of #24 you will see thay are in harmony. The key word is 'means', as in a means to an end. The means for our atonement begins with Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection and ends with the atoning ministry in the Most Holy, which has been active since 1844.

 

[Joe67]

Can you explain the Adventist belief in the second and last phase of the atonement, starting in the year 1844, for the person asking for information on the Adventist view of atonement?

tall,

God's grace that is in Jesus is not bound by time.

We, in our flesh, are bound by time.

In the early 1800's the professed christian believers in Europe and the Americas had become engulfed by modern Baal worship, so the Lord sent a modern day Jehu. The time based truth of God was brought forth again to reestablish the Creator. Consider what was happening in the 1800s, with its pantheism, evolution, humanism and evangelicals ready to take up arms in the name of Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Jehu did all that the Lord commanded him, but he did not depart from the sin of Jeroboam. Thus Jehu's lineage lasted to the 4th generation.

Thus the modern day Jehu, whose message was of our Lord Jesus' return at a certain time, and his children (SdA) that present the atonement in time has lasted to the 4th generation. Now the reign of modern Jehu is being destroyed gradually through modern day Assyria and eventually modern day Babylon will complete the full assimilation of the sanctuary message. Jerusalem hung on to the bitter end. Thus we see the present energy among the elders and the leadership, just as it was in the time of Zedekiah.

The resurrection of Jesus our Lord was in the power of an endless (timeless) life without evenings and mornings and without human authority. This is the power of his gospel, the power of the atonement.

Not only the SdA, but the evangelical, as well as the orthodox world is returning unto an increasing bondage over the people to worship and to pay (contribute to the anointed ministry) in a time based process, based upon a weekly cycle. The weekly cycle was of minimal importance in the "dark ages."

The whole world is wondering after the beast that worships weekly.

Joe

 

[ricker]

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

Are there any Bible verses that say anything like "Hold fast to your faith in Jesus, so God may be vindicated before Heavenly Intelligences that have questions about His integrity"?

I guess I didn't look up all the passages quoted at the botom, so maybe it's there.