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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    So you did mean to say 7th day adventists instead of mormons
    I thought so. I'm vaguely aware of some of the things the adventists teach and belive, strangely enough I think you might consider them partial preterists since they view most of prophecy as having already been fulfilled, though in a vastly different way than you. In fact, it could be reasonably argued that it was the preterists view which lead them astray, seeing prophecy as having already been fulfilled with only the second coming of Christ to remain.

    I keep losing track of who believed what, last count I had it was the JW's with 1914 though they may have updated that by now.

    But I still stand by my original point, just because some people make fools of themselves over a particular belief does not invalidate that belief. It is God Himself who determines what is true and what is false, and man's silly reactions are irrelevant.
     
  2. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5


    I totally agree with this statement. Thank you for posting it, God Bless you.
     
  3. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    By the way:
    GW - How old is your daughter? Mine will be 4 in August. We have all the Veggie Tales videos and she's always re-enacting scenes! Our newest addition (another lil' girl) will be here at the end of July! :clap: :D
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    Brother,

    Read the history. The 7th Day Adventists were birthed by a MAINSTREAM, evangelical endtimes movement that was very similar to the Left Behind series today. Pre-trib rapturism was just being invented, and postribs were right there with them. 1844!

    Only the Left Behind mania rivals the madness that swept our nation back then in the 1800s.

    Partial and full preterism shut the door on endtimes hysterias entirely. They are LONG-term views of history.

    We have endtimes devotion by devout Christians to thank for the 7th Day Adventists, the JWs and the Latter Day Saints. Did you ever notice that these three cults are LAST DAYS cults? Where did they get their cult power? Last Days Madness. We will have a great many new cults birthed in our next 40 years due to our current fever of endtimes madness.

    The Catholic Church has always been officially Amillennial and partially preterist, which is why the Catholic Church has avoided endtimes hysterias.
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Congratulations! *Applause*

    My little girl just turned five in February. She and I just watched the Grapes of "Wrath" ... er, uh, "MATH"... last night. She loves 'em. They are very creative.

    We also like the Story Keepers and also the Adventures in the Bible Series produced by Hanna Barbara. Very, very good. (Although, those are really meant for about the 6-9 age range.)

    God bless!
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>Your theory would have some teeth if it were true that the Messianic generation was but a "type" instead of the fulfillment itself.

    The first 30 some years of the early church was a type of what would take place for the next almost 2000 years. We see a demonstration of this in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus through John writes to the Seven Churchs. Even though these were actual Churches in Johns day, this still applys to us today. All the churches today will be like one of those seven. Also there are those that say there were actually 7 time periods during this church age, or the age of grace. Each of the 7 churches in Rev. is representive of the overall church during each of the 7 different time periods we have passed through. The Church that applys to the times we live in today is the luke warm church. Right before this was the Church of Brotherly love. We know that the generations before us saw a great revival. Some call it the great awakening of the Church. Before that was the church who had not stained their garments. We know this was a time of the puritan movement, even the pilgrams who founded this country were influenced by the puritans.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    John,

    Does the scripture teach any of that? Can you please point me to those passages that teach such an allegorical view of the book of Revelation?
     
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>Christ didn't come to usher in yet another age of "types and shadows",

    We still have types and shadows. The only difference is, under the old covenant a lot of the time that was all they had. Under the New Covenant, all mysteries have been shown in Christ. Nothing is hidden or concealed any longer.

    Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    Matthew 13:14
    'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
    And seeing you will see and not perceive;
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    Debbie,

    Where do you come up with this stuff? I labor with one of the larger mainstream and evangelical Churches in the midwest. They do not focus on endtimes. If they did, they would probably be post-trib (for the most part). They just don't focus on it. They are too busy doing Kingdom work.


    Debbie. What in the world are you talking about? This is the most incorrect stuff I have ever seen. Are you attempting a libel here? If I didn't know better I'd say you were intentionally presenting people with lies. But, since I don't know you, I'll just assume you are speaking out of serious ignorance.

    "Zeal without knowledge is NOT good; nor to be hasty and miss the way." -- proverbs
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    Well Debbie, how about you start sourcing for us all these rather dubious allegations you are making. Don't be so irresponsible or dishonest as to blatantly say something without backing up with reputable proof -I'll be waiting

    1) preterists are the chosen???

    2) futurists are not???

    3) Jesus died only for 'the chosen' i.e., preterists. [believe me, there are as many futurists Jesus died for]

    4) a different Jesus???

    What's your source??? do tell :(

    davo
     
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>Can you please point me to those passages that teach such an allegorical view of the book of Revelation?

    It's no alergory, it is right there in plain English who Jesus is writting to:

    Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

    Are you the Church? If your a part of the Church, then Jesus is talking to you. People always think the Bible is for someone else other than them. If that were so, then God would be a gossip. This is a open letter to the Church, and if your a part of the Church, then this is a letter to you.

    Do you know what the will of God is?

    Ephes. 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

    If God is going to gather us all together as one, in Christ, then why would it be so hard for Him to write us all a letter at the same time. We are one in Christ.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The roots of your endtimes hysteria go back to 1844. Study your roots. As far as endtimes mania goes, John Nelson Darby begat C.I. Scofield (the Scofield Bible) and C.I. Scofield begat Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and Tim Lahaye.

    You are not in the last days. The apostles were:


    Acts 2:15-17
    For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel-- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy"

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us
     
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    Hi Josiah,

    My kids are a little older, 12 and 9, this is going to come off differently than i mean it, based on your thinking that Christ' return is imminent, will that affect how your raising you kids ? ( one child unborn yet ) Congrats !!! :)

    This is just something i've been curious about, are people raising kids differently ? Will there be a future for them in the world as we know it ? Or do you just plan for a future assuming Christ will not return in our lifetimes, i mean do you have a 401k at work, started a college fund for the kids ?

    I know i'm rambling a bit, but do you see where i'm coming from ?
     
  15. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    I said "NOT ALL" PRETERISTS BELIEVE IN THE "CHOSEN" CONCEPT= different Jesus, so if that doesnt apply to you, ignore it. It applies to many preterists.
    I got the view of housechurches for preterists from a previous post in this thread from a preterist.
    THe rest of my post is the belief of all full preterists, which you did not deny.
     
  16. forjesus

    forjesus Humble Servant

    +21
    Christian
    God Bless you Catch, and God Bless us all. Your Friend
     
  17. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi everyone.

    I believe that the greatest problem over the debate of preterism here is simply a lack of knowledge and understanding about the system, pure and simple. From what I have read in these posts, the majority of futurists here that are the most adamantly opposed to preterism have never seen this eschatological viewpoint until joining this forum, let alone studied it's principles in detail. And yet judgments are pronounced, defensive positions are dug in, and claims of cultism are made against an end-time view that my brothers and sisters seem to know very little or nothing about.

    One poster has claimed to "investigate" preterism, and yet in reality the investigative work consisted of nothing more than "debating for 15-20 hours". And the results show. Another claim is that preterists "spiritulizes" all verses that don't suit our doctrine. Any real investigation into the teachings of preterism show that this is a horrible fallacy, and is an accusation that can easily be applied to any number of futurist eschatalogies as well.

    The bottom line here is this: most of you that are against preterism have never really gone beyond reading some posts on limited topics, or skimming over a few articles on the internet. Because of this you do not understand, nor do you even try to understand the heremeutical principles that we use to understand end-time scripture. The end result is that some have drawn faulty conclusions based on limited knowledge (from accusing us that we think the Bible is useless for us today, to rejecting the 2nd Coming)

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've studied Mormonism for a while now. I have learned to understand their interpretive process and think the way they do when they study scripture, and yet at the same time I disagree vehemently to their heremeutic. So I am not asking all of you to agree with preterism, but what I am asking you is to at least learn how we think and why we come to the conclusions that we do. That way you will understand our reasoning even though you may still disagree with it (like I have with Mormonism). Calling us crazy and telling us that our views are insane just shows us that you don't understand preterism at all.

    So I would like to end this post by giving you a major principle that will allow some of you to at least understand how we interpret scripture. The gist of it has already been laid out before but I think it is important to spell it out in black and white. If any other preterists would like to add more principles, feel free to do so. Again, this is to help some of my brothers and sisters understand what we actually believe (not what you want to think we believe) so that you can realize that our views are hardly based on lunacy, but based on our desire to uphold the Word of God.

    First Principle: "AUDIENCE RELEVANCE"

    This is the principle that the application of a statement or prophecy in scripture needs to be first understood according to the original, intended audience. The message of Matthew 24 was originally given to Christ' Disciples on the Mount of Olives, detailing the destruction of the Herodian Temple and was intended as a warning for them; the letter of 1Thessalonians was originally for the Thessalonians and intended to address issues within their Church. Any further application of the scriptures must be first weighed by what they meant to the original recipients.

    I think this is an extremely biblical principle, and this is what preterists employ when understanding the scriptures, first and foremost. Regardless whether or not "double fulfillments" come into play later, the interpretative process begins with what the scriptures meant to the original recipients.

    I hope this was helpful for those of you who struggle with why preterists believe such "crazy" ideas. Unless you understand the process you will not understand the end result, and that's true when confronting anything you do not agree with (whether preterism, or Mormonism, or Islam, or whatever).

    If you do not agree with preterism at least understand what we actually believe before you start telling us what we do or do not believe.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    John,

    I, too, am focused on the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Let's never forget what Paul wrote to people who claim to be spirit-filled:

    1 Corinthians 14:37
    If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment


    Truly spiritual Christians follow the apostles' doctrines as the Lord's own teachings. This next scripture applies to those who do not accept Paul's teaching that the last days were his own times:

    1 Corinthians 3:1
    And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.



    For we KNOW that Paul taught all his flocks that the last days had come upon his generation:


    Hebrews 1:2
    in these last days has spoken to us

    1 Corinthians 10:11
    Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for OUR instruction upon whom the ends of the ages HAVE come.



    John, that is spiritualizing away what John said if one tries to apply it the way you think to do. The seven churches St John sent his vision to were all 1st century churches that do not exist today anywhere on the planet. They are:

    Ephesus
    Smyrna
    Pergamum
    Thyatira
    Sardis
    Philadelphia
    Laodicea


    Each one of those Churches were Churches that St. John knew of personally. They were his own contemporaries. Each congregation had specific problems that were unique and Jesus promised each of those 1st century congregations that He was going to come back for them (e.g., Rev 2:18-25; Rev 3:1-3).

    Now either Jesus Christ kept his promises to those first century Churches or he didn't. Jesus made them promises that he kept -- for our Lord is a Promise Keeper.

    To say that Jesus did not keep his promise to those to whom St. John was writing is to turn our Lord into a false prophet.

    Furthermore, no where in Revelation do we see St. John say that these Churches stand for segments of history or the Churches of any FUTURE time. St. John simply doesn't allow for such an allegorical use of his letter written and urgently sent to those Churches with this opening warning:

    Revelation 1:1,3
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which MUST soon take place...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it for the time is at hand.


    We can trust that our Lord did not make promises to St. John and those 7 Churches that He failed to keep.

    There is only ONE endtimes generation in all of human history -- and the apostles and Christ taught it was theirs (Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3; Acts 2:15-17; Heb 10:37; Matthew 24:34/23:36; 1 Cor 10:11; Heb 9:26; Rev 1:1; 1 John 2:18-19).

    With you in the eternal ministry of the Holy Ghost,
    GW




    Further Reading:
    The Beast of Revelation - Identified!
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/gentry-ken_pp_02.html
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    John 14:1
    Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you

    John 16:33
    take courage; I have overcome the world.

    1 John 5:4
    this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

    1 John 2:13
    I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one

    1 John 4:4
    You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you
     
  20. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    Phoenix:

    We are to live each day to its fullest!

    :) LOVE
     
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