Full Preterist Safe House

[GallagherM]

My belief is full Pretrism. So I believe everything has been fulfilled myself. Do not care anymore if anyone knows it or not really… but I’ll keep my post outside of this open to interpretation for the most part. I believe in freedom of thought and opinion. Have come to the conclusion that everything has happened.

 

[GallagherM]

@robycop3 - Your comment was deleted. My conclusion is based on the bible itself. I believe someone reading the bible who never had proper training and read the Revelation by themselves in understanding the letter was to the 7 churches can see that Jesus Christ was coming back quickly for the saving of the bride which was the first fruit believers of those whom heard the good news, believed and lived by faith.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Greetings, one and all. Good to see a forum section dedicated to discussing the past fulfillment of those prophecies of Revelation that were "at hand" for the first century believers.

My eschatological perspective is a bit eclectic, so I can often find scriptural agreement on several fronts with those of opposing viewpoints.

The Ephesians 4:8 text with its "multitude of captives" whom Jesus led out of the grave when He ascended on high - these I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints raised with Christ, which remained on earth until AD 70's next bodily resurrection. These resurrected saints were given as "gifts" to the early church for edifying and building up the body of Christ. Some of those Matthew 27 resurrected saints were apostles (simply meaning "sent ones"), evangelists, prophets, pastors, and teachers. Along with Christ, they formed the "First-fruits" group raised from the dead in that "First resurrection" of AD 33. And there were 144,000 of those Matthew 27:52-53 "First-fruits" (as Rev. 14:4 refers to the 144,000 by that same title), coming from Jewish tribal lineage, since it was graves around Jerusalem that were opened by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion.

 

[parousia70]

The Ephesians 4:8 text with its "multitude of captives" whom Jesus led out of the grave when He ascended on high - these I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints raised with Christ

Hi again 3 Rez..
I’ve heard this take before.
I’ve even addressed it in the thread.
I don’t believe scripture supports such a conclusion.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Parousia70, your take on this is actually in accord with the interpretation I have given. You say this phrase "leading captivity captive" is a reflection of a conquering warrior leading a victory parade to display his power over his conquered enemy. Well, what is the delivery of those Matthew 27 resurrected saints from the Hadean realm but Christ's victory over Satan who had the power of death? For Christ to descend into that Hadean realm and lead out a multitude of those captives, and then give them as gifts to men for the edifying of the church in those days, wasn't this displaying Christ's power over Satan who had held the power of death?

Those Matthew 27 resurrected saints had once been enemies of Christ from their conception, but became adopted children of God at some point. Christ transforms His enemies into family members, and is not ashamed to call them brothers. It was very much a victory parade when Christ led that multitude of captive Matthew 27 saints out of the grave in their glorified, resurrected bodies, leaving them on earth to do battle with a loosed Satan in those last days when he only had a "short time" left to operate in the world.

And there is more than just one Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:12-15 has already been fulfilled, as has I Corinthians 15:55-56. We get our own day to stand before the throne in our future as well, in our glorified, resurrected bodies.

 

[parousia70]

Parousia70, your take on this is actually in accord with the interpretation I have given. You say this phrase "leading captivity captive" is a reflection of a conquering warrior leading a victory parade to display his power over his conquered enemy. Well, what is the delivery of those Matthew 27 resurrected saints from the Hadean realm but Christ's victory over Satan who had the power of death? For Christ to descend into that Hadean realm and lead out a multitude of those captives, and then give them as gifts to men for the edifying of the church in those days, wasn't this displaying Christ's power over Satan who had held the power of death?

Those Matthew 27 resurrected saints had once been enemies of Christ from their conception, but became adopted children of God at some point. Christ transforms His enemies into family members, and is not ashamed to call them brothers. It was very much a victory parade when Christ led that multitude of captive Matthew 27 saints out of the grave in their glorified, resurrected bodies, leaving them on earth to do battle with a loosed Satan in those last days when he only had a "short time" left to operate in the world.

And there is more than just one Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:12-15 has already been fulfilled, as has I Corinthians 15:55-56. We get our own day to stand before the throne in our future as well, in our glorified, resurrected bodies.

That explanation (or get-around) certainly feels good, but is it sound?

The who notion of the Victorious King parading his captives around (leading captivity captive) is to Humiliate, shame and gloat over THEM.

If your Explanation is correct, Christ would have to be Humiliating, shaming and gloating over His saints if they were truly the captivity He was leading captive.

But I don't believe that is what you claim He is doing.

You explanation is therefore not in accord with the true meaning.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is far from being a "get-around" interpretation, parousia70. I am closely following the train of thought in Ephesians 4. It was always ordained that a high priest have gifts and sacrifices to offer (Hebrews 8:3). Some of those gifts were Christ's confiscated "spoils" from His victory over Satan's realm. When Christ "gave gifts unto men" in Ephesians 4:8, it lists those specific gifts which were given in Ephesians 4:11. "And He gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ;" This does not say that Christ had turned those people into apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. The sense of this is that He gave those who already were apostles TO some, etc.. They were already identified as being these types of people, when they were given to the church. This is a different concept from the spiritual gifts being given to the saints in those days.

Christ led those Matthew 27 saints out of the grave to display that those who once were former enemies of His before their conversion had become His willing servants to edify the early church by serving in all those different capacities. Though their physical bodies had been dead, yet they were raised to live again eternally in incorruptible flesh.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Though their physical bodies had been dead, yet they were raised to live again eternally in incorruptible flesh.

Could you please prove that from scripture, as I understand Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
Therefore, what seed are we?
1 John 3:9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 Peter 1:23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
And then to 2 Corinthians where Paul continues with more details of the body that is to be.
2 Corinthians 5:1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The proofs for a bodily resurrection, with the former body changed into an incorruptible condition, are found in the verses you just submitted. For just one of them...

5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

The word for "guarantee" in this verse (arrabon) in the Greek indicates a down payment - a deposit which is held as proof of a future benefit which will be fully realized later on.

We as believers presently have this "down payment" of the Holy Spirit inside. We presently HAVE eternal life of our Spirit, which departs to be present with the Lord at our death. Yet besides the present reality of having eternal life already given to our spirit, the Holy Spirit indwelling us acts as a "down payment" of a future benefit also, assuring us of eternal life guaranteed for our physical bodies as well. Otherwise, why does the scripture in Romans 8:24-25 speak of a future hope for the believer in the resurrection, when the redemption of our body takes place?

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit, we already have eternal life in fellowship of our spirits with the Father, and with the Son while in this life. Yet we are given a guarantee - a pledge - an "arrabon" - of our eventual face-to-face fellowship with our Creator by the resurrection of our physical bodies. This will be accomplished by our bodies putting on immortality in the resurrection process.

"It is sown in weakness. It is raised in power". The corruptible 'IT" body that is sown into the ground in physical death is the very same "IT" body which shall be raised incorruptible. For the believers, that old, physically dead body form is changed by the resurrection process into a new condition - not exchanged for another form, with the old form dumped like garbage.

Christ paid His blood for both our bodies and our spirits. This is why Paul told the Corinthians to "glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:20). If such a costly price was paid for my physical body form, as well as my spirit, God would never discard as garbage what Christ paid the price of His blood to purchase. That would only offer insult to the value of Christ's sacrifice.

"But if the Spirt of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Galatians 5:11).

"And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by His own power." (1 Corinthians 6:14).

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The proofs for a bodily resurrection, with the former body changed into an incorruptible condition, are found in the verses you just submitted. For just one of them...



The word for "guarantee" in this verse (arrabon) in the Greek indicates a down payment - a deposit which is held as proof of a future benefit which will be fully realized later on.

We as believers presently have this "down payment" of the Holy Spirit inside. We presently HAVE eternal life of our Spirit, which departs to be present with the Lord at our death. Yet besides the present reality of having eternal life already given to our spirit, the Holy Spirit indwelling us acts as a "down payment" of a future benefit also, assuring us of eternal life guaranteed for our physical bodies as well. Otherwise, why does the scripture in Romans 8:24-25 speak of a future hope for the believer in the resurrection, when the redemption of our body takes place?

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit, we already have eternal life in fellowship of our spirits with the Father, and with the Son while in this life. Yet we are given a guarantee - a pledge - an "arrabon" - of our eventual face-to-face fellowship with our Creator by the resurrection of our physical bodies. This will be accomplished by our bodies putting on immortality in the resurrection process.

"It is sown in weakness. It is raised in power". The corruptible 'IT" body that is sown into the ground in physical death is the very same "IT" body which shall be raised incorruptible. For the believers, that old, physically dead body form is changed by the resurrection process into a new condition - not exchanged for another form, with the old form dumped like garbage.

Christ paid His blood for both our bodies and our spirits. This is why Paul told the Corinthians to "glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:20). If such a costly price was paid for my physical body form, as well as my spirit, God would never discard as garbage what Christ paid the price of His blood to purchase. That would only offer insult to the value of Christ's sacrifice.

"But if the Spirt of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Galatians 5:11).

"And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by His own power." (1 Corinthians 6:14).

I was hoping you would harmonize the scripture I gave you with what you believe.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I was hoping you would harmonize the scripture I gave you with what you believe.

It already does harmonize. Christ is the "imperishable Seed", who physically died once, and who will never die again. "Death hath no more dominion over Him." His resurrection body is the pattern for our own, and was exemplified by the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected with Him.

As the "First-fruits", Christ and those He raised along with Himself provided the "living and abiding" example of what we can expect our own resurrection experience to be like. The "First-fruits" of a harvest are always exactly the same kind as the rest of the harvest - all the way to the Last-fruits.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

2 Corinthians 5:1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ok, then comment on this with regards to your physical resurrection.

 

[Freed Man]

God said that He would never again destroy the earth.

He said He would never destroy it again by water or with a flood. But He will destroy it by fire before He creates the new Heaven and the new earth. Genesis 9:13-15

 

[Ed Parenteau]

He said He would never destroy it again by water or with a flood. But He will destroy it by fire before He creates the new Heaven and the new earth. Genesis 9:13-15

That was the everlasting covenant He made with Noah. Is God duplicitous?
Merriam-Webster: The idea of doubleness is at the core of duplicity. Duplicity comes from a Latin word meaning "double" or "twofold," and its original meaning in English has to do with a kind of deception in which you intentionally hide your true feelings or intentions behind false words or actions. If you are being duplicitous there are two yous: the one you're showing and the one you're hiding. And—key to the idea of duplicity—you're hiding that you in order to make people believe something that's not true.

The word is found in many works of literature, including the Bible:

The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.
— Proverbs 11:3 (New International Version)

On top of that, Genesis 8:21And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. 22While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”

As to 2 Peter 3:10 and 12, using scripture to interpret scripture, check out the following uses in their context. Then you can get a better understanding of the word "elements" used in the new testament and decide for yourself what elements Peter is referring to. Then read Isaiah 34 with regards judgement on Edom, paying close attention to the "apocalyptic language"
Galatians 4:3 N-ANP
GRK: ὑπὸ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: under the elemental things of the world.
KJV: under the elements of the world:
INT: under the basic principles of the world

Galatians 4:9 N-ANP
GRK: καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα οἷς πάλιν
NAS: and worthless elemental things, to which
KJV: beggarly elements, whereunto
INT: and beggarly principles to which again

Colossians 2:8 N-ANP
GRK: κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: according to the elementary principles of the world,
KJV: after the rudiments of the world,
INT: according to the principles of the world

Colossians 2:20 N-GNP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
KJV: from the rudiments of the world,
INT: from the principles of the world

Hebrews 5:12 N-NNP
GRK: τινὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς
NAS: to teach you the elementary principles
KJV: [be] the first principles of the oracles
INT: what [are] the principles of the beginning
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Is Peter contradicting himself?

 

[Bob_1000]

My belief is full Pretrism. So I believe everything has been fulfilled myself. Do not care anymore if anyone knows it or not really… but I’ll keep my post outside of this open to interpretation for the most part. I believe in freedom of thought and opinion. Have come to the conclusion that everything has happened.

Your conclusion is 100% right.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your conclusion is 100% right.

Not quite 100%. Don't forget the prophecies that John sealed up in Revelation 10:4. Whatever prophecies those seven thunders uttered, John was forbidden to write them down. These were "sealed up" and reserved for the ages to come after all of Revelation's "at hand" prophecies had been fulfilled at the end of those ages. This "sealing up" of those Revelation 10:4 prophecies was just the same as Daniel's prophecies being sealed up and reserved for the time of the end (which were unsealed and fulfilled in the AD 70 era).

Sealing something indicates a reserved, delayed status for something to be fulfilled.

 

[Bob_1000]

Not quite 100%. Don't forget the prophecies that John sealed up in Revelation 10:4. Whatever prophecies those seven thunders uttered, John was forbidden to write them down. These were "sealed up" and reserved for the ages to come after all of Revelation's "at hand" prophecies had been fulfilled at the end of those ages. This "sealing up" of those Revelation 10:4 prophecies was just the same as Daniel's prophecies being sealed up and reserved for the time of the end (which were unsealed and fulfilled in the AD 70 era).

Sealing something indicates a reserved, delayed status for something to be fulfilled.

I don’t agree with that because there are no new prophecy’s in Revelation. The prophets and the law prophesied until John after John the kingdom came.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The prophets and the law prophesied until John after John the kingdom came.

Quite right. But those don't have to be NEW prophecies in Revelation 10:4; just old ones that were sealed up and reserved for times post-AD 70.

Anyone would have to be blind not to recognize Revelation's bringing up the prophecies from Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Moses, etc., etc. But there are definitely some prophecies, in Zechariah 14:16-21 for example, that speak about times after the AD 70 destruction of physical Jerusalem.

Full Preterists are spot on when they recognize that Daniel's sealed up prophecies indicated that those events were going to be delayed until the time of the end when the power of Daniel's people was shattered (in the AD 70 era, when there would be "no more delay" - Rev. 10:6). But to stay consistent with that interpretation, the sealing up of the Revelation 10:4 prophecies also indicated a delay in their fulfillment - past the "at hand" fulfillment of the rest of the book.

 

[Bob_1000]

Quite right. But those don't have to be NEW prophecies in Revelation 10:4; just old ones that were sealed up and reserved for times post-AD 70.

Anyone would have to be blind not to recognize Revelation's bringing up the prophecies from Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Moses, etc., etc. But there are definitely prophecies in Zechariah 14:16-21, for example, that speak about times after the AD 70 destruction of physical Jerusalem.

Full Preterists are spot on when they recognize that Daniel's sealed up prophecies indicated that those events were going to be delayed until the time of the end when the power of Daniel's people was shattered (in the AD 70 era, when there would be "no more delay" - Rev. 10:6). But to stay consistent with that interpretation, the sealing up of the Revelation 10:4 prophecies also indicated a delay in their fulfillment - past the "at hand" fulfillment of the rest of the book

What do you think isn't fulfilled in Zechariah 14? Zechariah seems to happen at the time living waters flowed out Jerusalem.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Isn't that ^ fulfilled right here?

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What do you think isn't fulfilled in Zechariah 14?

Sure, that "living waters going out from Jerusalem" part of Zechariah 14 was established for certain back in AD 70 under the conditions for the New Jerusalem on earth (which we are currently in).

The specific dividing line comes at Zechariah 14:16-21, which described the "year to year" worship of the Lord AFTER all the nations came against Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period. "Everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem..." describes times that were post-AD 70.