Full Preterist Safe House

Bob_1000

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Sure, that "living waters going out from Jerusalem" part of Zechariah 14 was established for certain back in AD 70 under the conditions for the New Jerusalem on earth (which we are currently in).

The specific dividing line comes at Zechariah 14:16-21, which described the "year to year" worship of the Lord AFTER all the nations came against Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period. "Everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem..." describes times that were post-AD 70.
Well since you understand that New Jerusalem is already here, you should know that Jerusalem in verse 16 is about the New Jerusalem which means that nobody is going to be going to earthly Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. All of that applies to the New Jerusalem. Keeping the feast of tabernacles means that Christ is living inside of us. Hopefully you follow me on this.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 
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Well since you understand that New Jerusalem is already here, you should know that Jerusalem in verse 16 is about the New Jerusalem which means that nobody is going to be going to earthly Jerusalem from year to year to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. All of that applies to the New Jerusalem. Keeping the feast of tabernacles means that Christ is living inside of us. Hopefully you follow me on this.

Yep, that is the spiritual New Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:16-21, made up of all the "living stones" being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. With a "foursquare" configuration, this New Jerusalem city is the realization of the square-shaped Holy of holies and the heavenly mercy-seat, to which we all have continual access as kings and priests. No rectangular-shaped outer barriers anymore with curtains restricting our fellowship.

I'm certainly not stating that a renewal of animal sacrifices is supposed to be part of this spiritual New Jerusalem, or a restoration of the OT Levitical system. The Feast of Tabernacles is only highlighted by God so that we can flag that date on the calendar as the time of year in the future when Christ will return for the third resurrection "harvest" of the saints' bodies out of the ground.

The other two formerly-required harvest feasts, (Passover and Pentecost), are not brought up at all in this text, since by the end of AD 70, these would both have become fulfilled types by then with the "First resurrection" at Passover in AD 33, and the second resurrection event in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I was wondering if we should still be taking communion if Jesus has already returned? 1Cor 11:26 says “For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” This to me makes it sound like the Lords supper will stop after Jesus returns. So if we are still practicing this is it a sin?
 
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trophy33

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I was wondering if we should still be taking communion if Jesus has already returned? 1Cor 11:26 says “For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” This to me makes it sound like the Lords supper will stop after Jesus returns. So if we are still practicing this is it a sin?
Why would be it a sin? An obsolete habit, at the worst. Similarly praying "Our Father... let your kingdom come" cannot be a sin.

I think there are more layers to the Lord's Supper than just proclaiming his death, though. Some mysterious views like transubstantiation aside, its still a memory of what He did for us, for our salvation. Not sure why it would be a sin to celebrate it, even after His return.

As we still celebrate His birth (Christmas), His resurrection...
 
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I was wondering if we should still be taking communion if Jesus has already returned? 1Cor 11:26 says “For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” This to me makes it sound like the Lords supper will stop after Jesus returns. So if we are still practicing this is it a sin?

This is a question I have heard before from those who oppose Preterism. The first-century generation of Christians remembered Christ's death in the Lord's supper until He came in AD 70, and every generation of Christians since then is still to be celebrating this communion until He comes for the final time in our future.

Why would this be considered a "sin" for us to remember the Lord's death by observing the Lord's supper today, even after Christ's AD 70 coming? As Ecclesiastes 7:1 & 8 once said, the day of a man's death was better even than the day of his birth, because the culminating end of something is better than its beginning. As astounding and miraculous as Christ's natural birth was, His accomplished crucifixion death and resurrection were even more glorious, and most worthy of remembrance in every generation.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Why would be it a sin? An obsolete habit, at the worst. Similarly praying "Our Father... let your kingdom come" cannot be a sin.

I think there are more layers to the Lord's Supper than just proclaiming his death, though. Some mysterious views like transubstantiation aside, its still a memory of what He did for us, for our salvation. Not sure why it would be a sin to celebrate it, even after His return.

As we still celebrate His birth (Christmas), His resurrection...
The reason I ask is because if you believe that Jesus came back in 70 AD and scripture says to do this till Jesus comes back then if you keep on doing it after he came back that would be disobedience to what he said.
 
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trophy33

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The reason I ask is because if you believe that Jesus came back in 70 AD and scripture says to do this till Jesus comes back then if you keep on doing it after he came back that would be disobedience to what he said.
I do not think its not a command to stop doing it after that.

Paul only says that they proclaim his death till He comes. Nothing about what will happen after.

If you are uncertain, I would advice to take it for example several times a year. Not every week, not never.

Also, Paul aside, Jesus said that its the sign of the New Covenant in His blood. And this applies forever.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The reason I ask is because if you believe that Jesus came back in 70 AD and scripture says to do this till Jesus comes back then if you keep on doing it after he came back that would be disobedience to what he said.
After He comes,
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Jesus's promise that His kingdom will come in some their lifetimes.
Matthew 16:
27For the Son of Man is about to come in the glory His Father, with His angels, and then He will give to each according to his deeds.
28Truly I say to you, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste of death until they have seen the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” And as Mark said "with power". Mark 9:11 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
If one were to claim that the transfiguration is Jesus "coming in His kingdom", then where did he come from, and who died in those 6 days? Or, as some claim, He came in His kingdom at Pentecost. However, Jesus said that He must go, but would send another comforter.
In either case, they're claiming that Jesus came in His kingdom and then turn around and have to claim He didn't really "come in His kingdom".
 
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john the youngest

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"Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

I believe there is a wide misinterpretation of what Jesus said, and partially based on religious atheism - ie Jesus isn't really alive, (even if its professed), God doesn't really have power, God doesn't really save us from out sins, etc (all while professing differently, but not really believing.

The gospel of John shows Jesus Christ ate and drank many times after he was resurrected. He returned pretty quick. Also, eating it new with you has a metaphorical meaning that is applicable today too - the forgiveness of sins happens right now, and we drink it with Jesus and because of Him. Corinthians takes on new meaning of what is really being said when you think about that, or who the body is, or the extended discussion before those chapters, or idolatry, or the cup of devils, or eating food sacrificed to devils, etc.

I didn't mean to intrude on the discussion, I'm mainly reading it to figure out what a "full preterist" is suppose to be, which I am not, but I saw this message at the end, and it's always thought that acting like Jesus Christ hasn't eaten and drunk for 2,000 years is a little odd - when its in the bible.
 
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Bob corrigan

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I want Pret-Corn popped in 312 but BUTTERRED in 70 AD

we will watch movies of Constantine riding his WHITE horse - though I am not sure what tells us his horse was white...

an added feature will be a surprise reel of the Apostle Paul

FALLING OFF OF HIS HORSE on the road to Damascus!!

A horse of a different color, indeed - a horse NEVER MENTIONED in four NT accounts of Paul's conversion on road to Damascus

yet commentaries from way back (including John Calvin's on Paul's conversion)

say explicitly that Paul fell from a horse

no horse in scripture on the road to Damascus

I say the horse got loose and ran all the way to Nicea 3 centuries later

HEIGH HO - SILVER!! AWAY!!!
You are correct. Nowhere in Scripture does it say Paul fell off of a horse. This shows the power and longevity of tradition. Someone makes an unbiblical statement. Other people like the statement and begin to teach it. It then becomes popular. And then widespread. No one tries to determine if the statement is found in Scripture. As time passes, it gets more entrenched into the minds of people. And after enough time passes, it evolves from a made-up statement into "historical fact."
 
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Der Alte

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"Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

I believe there is a wide misinterpretation of what Jesus said, and partially based on religious atheism - ie Jesus isn't really alive, (even if its professed), God doesn't really have power, God doesn't really save us from out sins, etc (all while professing differently, but not really believing.

The gospel of John shows Jesus Christ ate and drank many times after he was resurrected. He returned pretty quick. Also, eating it new with you has a metaphorical meaning that is applicable today too - the forgiveness of sins happens right now, and we drink it with Jesus and because of Him. Corinthians takes on new meaning of what is really being said when you think about that, or who the body is, or the extended discussion before those chapters, or idolatry, or the cup of devils, or eating food sacrificed to devils, etc.

I didn't mean to intrude on the discussion, I'm mainly reading it to figure out what a "full preterist" is suppose to be, which I am not, but I saw this message at the end, and it's always thought that acting like Jesus Christ hasn't eaten and drunk for 2,000 years is a little odd - when its in the bible.
After His resurrection did Jesus observe the Passover? That is what Jesus was referring to when He said, "drink this fruit of the vine."
 
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3 Resurrections

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You are correct. Nowhere in Scripture does it say Paul fell off of a horse. This shows the power and longevity of tradition. Someone makes an unbiblical statement. Other people like the statement and begin to teach it. It then becomes popular. And then widespread. No one tries to determine if the statement is found in Scripture. As time passes, it gets more entrenched into the minds of people. And after enough time passes, it evolves from a made-up statement into "historical fact."
Exactly so. This is also true of the misunderstood terms of the "rapture". Certain teachings over time have been added to Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4 account of this event at Christ's return that are nowhere taught in scripture at all. I am speaking of the presumed "translation" of believers at Christ's return, so that they do not have to pass through the death process in order to be taken into heaven and God's presence. That is an error. Scripture nowhere teaches a mass translation of living believers at Christ's return who were to be exempt from the required one-time-only appointment with death. "As in Adam ALL DIE." and "...as it is appointed unto man ONCE TO DIE..." proves this.

Those who were "alive and remain" and were to be caught up in the clouds with the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 &17 were those who had already been made "alive" by a bodily-resurrection process, but who had "remained" on the earth in their glorified bodies for a certain reserved length of time until Christ's return. Lazarus and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints were some examples of these "alive" and "remaining" ones.
 
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Der Alte

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I have been labeled a preterist by cf because I say the second coming was in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. And he sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.
Where is all this documented in scripture or historical writings?
 
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Der Alte

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The expression "heaven and earth" was often a Hebrew merism for "the book of the law," that is, the Mosaic covenant. (e.g., Deuteronomy chapters 30-32).
***
Source? I have read that Judaism believes that "heaven and earth" refers to the nation Israel. But that too was absent credible, verifiable sources.
 
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parousia70

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Source? I have read that Judaism believes that "heaven and earth" refers to the nation Israel. But that too was absent credible, verifiable sources.
Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the “planting of Heavens and Earth”

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the heavens and earth when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8). Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking and removal of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet, for God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." The earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4) — rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

I concur with C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth:

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)
 
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FredVB

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People of faith generally are too focused on the rapture they count on and it gets used to dismiss responsibilities we have here. God did not say it does not matter. Among many other things, from the beginning we are here to be stewards of this earth that we can have it going as well, and not worsen it. God hates the destruction to it (Revelation 11:18), and there will be accountability. The destructiveness in this world along with the materialism, exploitation, and wickedness in rebelliousness to God where we are cannot go on, there will be collapse and the fall ahead (Revelation 18). We are not to stay with this but are to get out as soon as possible, not just waiting for anything, and, not forsaking stewardship in this world we are supposed to have.
 
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When Mystery Babylon has fallen, there will be a leader gaining prominence with promises to rebuild civilization from what remains, though it will be godless, and it will be further against God's will. Those who will not go along with it, which real believers then will not, will be subject to persecution, and ultimately executions. Those with more hidden places may avoid that, while those places they have need to be stable with what can be grown there.
 
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Ephesians321

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Amazing and blessed full preterist teaching from Don K Preston on...

The First Fruit of the Resurrection #1
The Birth of Death, The Birth of Life, The Death of Death!

The small book of James is often overlooked, at least to some degree, in discussions of eschatology. When discussion does focus on the book, it normally turns, rightfully to a degree, to chapter 5:6-10 and James’ assertion that the parousia of Christ had drawn near, and that the Lord, as Judge, was standing right at the door. I suggest, however, that chapter 5 is the “back end” as it were, to an inclusio discussion of the resurrection harvest, at the coming of the Lord. I suggest that James begins his discussion of that theme by introducing an admittedly brief, but, powerful discussion of the overcoming of the Adamic Death Curse in the New Creation of Christ.

James 1:18: “Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.”

Here, we have explicitly stated that James’ audience – those from the twelve tribes (1:1) – who had been converted to Christ- were first fruits; they were in fact, first fruit of the resurrection. Notice that unlike Romans 15:6 where the “first fruit” were simply the first of a geographical region to be converted, those in James are the first of God’s creatures (ktismaton). The power of James 1:18 should not be overlooked. They were part of the New Creation!

Side Bar: I suggest that there is another “layer” of thought in James’ reference to the New Creation. Not only does the author posit his audience as the New Creation, but, directly related to that is the concept of the New Israel. It must be kept in mind as Moses was sent to Egypt to deliver Israel from bondage, he was told: “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Exodus 4:22). There is a close connection between first fruit and first born. Thus, just as Old Covenant Israel was God’s first born, the righteous remnant of the twelve tribes in James’ day, now followers of Messiah Jesus, were the first fruit of the True Israel (Acts 3:21-24). Added to this is the fact that in the Old Covenant prophecies of the New Creation we find the prediction of the destruction of Old Covenant Israel and the creation of a New People with a New Name. See Psalms 102 / Isaiah 62-65. In other words, the promise of the New Creation (which is nothing but a promise of the resurrection) included the prophecy of the New People. James’ audience – the righteous remnant – was about to live through the parousia and judgment of the Old Covenant people, and along with the Gentiles comprise the New Creation of the Lord! This is a rich and important topic, but I will not develop it further at this time.

Notice that James contrasts the former life of his readers with their current status. They had once given themselves to temptation, lust and sin which had produced (given birth to) death (v. 14-15). Death was the “offspring” (the child, if you please) of sin. Sin “brought forth” – gave birth to death. This is patently the same death as Adam, since what we see in Genesis was temptation, sin and death there as well. James’ audience had, in their past lives, recapitulated the story of the Garden, temptation, sin, death.

The word translated as “brings forth” (James 1:15) is apokuei, from apokueo. It basically means “to give birth, to bring forth from the womb.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, (Grand Rapids; Zondervan, 1973), 64). Their former life had given birth to death. They had experienced the “wages of sin” i.e. death. They had experienced the death of Adam.

But, James then says that his readers had now been “begotten”- and he uses a cognate of apokueo. This contrast between a “birth to death” and a birth into Christ is extremely important. Their former life gave birth to death. But, now, through faith, they had been “begotten, brought forth”; another birth had taken place! They were the first fruits, the first born, of another creation. They were the first fruit of the resurrection!

Scholars have long recognized that creation language permeates James’ thought here. Thus, James is contrasting two creations, the Old Creation of sin and death, and a New Creation of life. This is resurrection. Their former life had given birth to death. Their new life in Christ was bringing forth life. (See Ralph Martin, James, Word Biblical Commentary, Vol. 48, (Waco, Tx; Word Publishers, 1988), 38+).

They had been delivered from the law of sin and death (temptation, sin, death, see 1 John 2:15) and were now a New Creation. Just as Paul spoke of being subject to the law of sin and death, and deliverance from it in Christ (Romans 8:1-3), James is contrasting their former “life of death” with their new found faith in Christ as the New Creation.

The “giving birth to death” motif is brought out very powerfully by James’ use of several words: sullabousa (from sullamabanao), tiktei, and the other words already noted, apokueo, etc.. The use of all of these words drives home the point that James is discussing two “creations”, two worlds. One is a world of death. This is nothing other than the Adamic world. The other is the New Creation of life in Christ. This is, in effect, a powerful discussion of the resurrection, the overcoming of the death of Adam. Since James’ audience had been subject to that world, but now, in Christ they are the first fruit of God’s New Creation, it follows of necessity that they were the first fruit of the resurrection.

James says that his audience were the first fruit, they were the first born of God’s creatures, His New Creation. This is directly parallel with Paul’s comments in 2 Corinthians 5:17– “If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation.” Thus, since they had gone from the Old Creation of sin and death, to the New Creation in Christ, they had become the first fruit of the resurrection into that New Creation.

Christ was the first fruit of the first fruit, they were the ensuing first fruit of the harvest, and they were living in the last days before the harvest at Christ’s parousia (James 5:6-10) which had drawn near.

Notice that there seems to be an inclusio in James. In chapter 1 he refers to them as the first fruit. This is harvest imagery. Then, in chapter 5 he urges them to patience:


“Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand” (James 5:6-8).

So, he begins his epistle with a reference to harvest and he closes with an illustration and reference to harvest, assuring them that Christ’s coming (for the harvest) was near (cf. Matthew 13:39f).

We should not fail to see the connection with Revelation 7 and 14 here. Just as James was writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, and referred to them as the first fruit of God’s New Creation, in Revelation John saw the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes. And who were they? They were the first fruit:

“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb” (Revelation 14:1-4).

Like James’ audience, these saints were the first fruit of those redeemed to God. They had once been dead in their sins and trespasses (like those in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2) but, had been redeemed to God from among men. They had patently not been raised from physical death. They had been redeemed from spiritual death. And there is something very important to notice in the text.

The 144,000 were the first fruit. It cannot be over-emphasized that “redemption” was the nature of their first fruit status. They were the first of those redeemed to God from man. But, to reiterate, they had not been raised from biological death.

If so, we have literally not a word to chronicle what would have been such an incredible, massive event. So, the nature of their birth, their resurrection, is patently not physical. What were they waiting for? They were waiting for the harvest, Revelation 14:

“Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” (I suggest that we have here the “hearing the voice of the Son of God” for the resurrection of John 5:28f). So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped” (Revelation 14:14-16).

So, the first fruit who had been born to life were not biologically dead people raised out of the ground. They were the beginning of the harvest -following Christ the first of the first fruit – and were waiting for the harvest. If they were the first fruit, which was not physical resurrection, then upon what basis do we say that the harvest – of which they were the first fruit, and of which Christ himself was the first of the first fruit – would be physical resurrection? That is changing horses in mid-stream. There is no justification for that in the text.
But notice that the 144,000 and those in James would be, in the typology of Israel’s festal calendar, the first fruit following the “first fruit of the first fruit.” In Leviticus 23:9f we find the commandment for the offering of the first fruit of the first fruit, which was to be offered on “the eighth day” – the day after the Sabbath. Thus, Jesus, as the first fruit of the first fruit (1 Corinthians 15:20) was raised on the eighth day (Matthew 28:1f). Then, on Pentecost, seven Sabbaths later, on another eighth day, they offered the first fruit (Leviticus 23:15f). And so it was that on the Day of Pentecost, over 3000 souls turned to Jesus the Messiah as the first fruit of those redeemed to God from man to receive the forgiveness of their sin – to be raised from “sin-death.” They became the first fruit of the resurrection!

Now, we are constantly told that the resurrection harvest must follow and be of the same nature, as the first fruit. This would demand that the first fruit would be of the same nature as “the first fruit of the first fruit,” right? So, let’s test that and see if it works. Let’s begin with an examination of the nature of the first fruit saints in James and Revelation, and work our way back to the resurrection of Christ as the first fruit of the first fruit.

The 144,000 and James’ audience (James 1) were the first fruit of the harvest.

The first fruit were to be of the same nature as the first of the first fruit.

Christ was the first fruit of the first fruit of the resurrection, the first to be raised to die no more. (Traditional view).

But, neither James’ audience or the 144,000– as the first fruit – had been physically raised from the dead to die no more.

Therefore, the resurrection of Christ as the first fruit of the first fruit, was not focused on his physical resurrection. His physical resurrection was, as he said repeatedly, and as John tells us, a sign of the greater spiritual realities. His resurrection was out of Adamic Death, separation from the Father. (The same kind of death from which James’ audience and the 144,000 had been – were being – raised).

Let me state my argument even more succinctly:

If the harvest is of the same nature as the first fruit,

and,

if the first fruit of James 1 and of the 144,000 were not raised from physical death,

then,

the harvest would not be of a physical resurrection.

It is patently undeniable that those in James and Revelation had not been raised from physical death.

Therefore, the harvest, of which those in James and Revelation were the first fruit, was not to be a resurrection from physical death.

To counter this argument, one would have to demonstrate that there are two different harvests, two different first fruit gatherings in the NT. There is no merit, no evidence, no support for such a claim.

James’ language of birth and death, death and life in chapter 1 shows that he was dealing with the solution to the Adamic Death problem. James is not discussing some aspect of the Adamic Curse. He is speaking of temptation, sin and death, the very same kind of death that was introduced into the world through Adam (Romans 5:12). And this means that his reference to his audience as the first fruit, was a reference to them as the first fruit of the resurrection!

 
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Ephesians321

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The First Fruit of the Resurrection #2
Be sure to read the first installment of this two part series.

What we have in James 5 is his concluding discussion of the harvest. As he has introduced the idea of the harvest in chapter 1, he then reminds his readers that the Day of the Lord, when the sickle would be thrust into the earth, was at hand, Take note of his harvest imagery:

“Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you. Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”

I will not discuss every tenet of this text but, it is important to note the urgency of the end and the day of the Lord, the harvest that permeates the text. This is brought out in a variety of ways.

1. In one of the few NT epistles in which “outsiders” are addressed, James warns the wealthy land owners who were defrauding the laboring saints of their rightful wages, thus causing incredible hardship.

It is well documented that the very social and economic conditions that James describes were sad realities in first century Judea. The wealthy land owners were depriving the tenant farmers of their rightful wages. Hunger, deprivation, foreclosures were rampant as the wealthy stripped the poor of their belongings and their dignity. (See Ralph Martin, Word Biblical Commentary, Vol 48, James, (Waco, Tx.; Word Publishers, 1988), 176+).

2. Take note that James said that the rich had heaped up treasure “in the last days” (5:3). This is not some “timeless” or generic reference to the last days as the Christian age! Like the rest of the NT writers, James believed that he was living in the last days foretold by the OT prophets (Acts 2:17f / 3:23f). Those were not the last days of time, or the last days of the Christian age (which has no end. See my book, The Last Days Identified, for a full demonstration that “the last days” in Scripture was referent to the last days of the Old Covenant age). The last days were the last days of the Old Covenant age, that would arrive with the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple (Matthew 24:3).

3. Notice James’ promise of coming vindication for the oppressed saints. This hearkens us back to Matthew 23 (among many texts) that promised the vindication of the suffering martyred saints, in the coming judgment of Jerusalem.

4. This connection, i.e. the coming vindication of the martyrs, is strengthened by hearing the “echo” of some key OT passages. Notice that James says of the unrighteous who, through their ungodly lack of mercy and compassion, “you have fattened your hearts as in the day of slaughter” (5:5). This is a direct echo of Jeremiah 12:3, where the same sins of the wealthy were taking place. Those sins– and persecuting the saints of the Lord– was bringing that “Day of Slaughter” on Jerusalem.

Likewise, James echoes a contemporary of Jeremiah, and the dire warnings of the imminent Day of the Lord. In Ezekiel 7, the Lord warned Judea and Jerusalem that, “the end has come”; “Doom has come to you, you who dwell in the land; The time has come, A day of trouble is near” (7:7f– see v 19). Just like Jeremiah, Ezekiel was warning of the impending Day of the Lord against Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.


Likewise, James told his Judean audience, “The Day of the Lord has drawn near”; “The judge is standing right at the door.” The conditions in the days of Jeremiah and Ezekiel were similar to those in the days of James, and we should not ignore those similarities. As a typical Jewish author James was drawing on Israel’s history. And his theme of imminent vindication of their suffering, as just suggested, is just a continuation of what Jesus and the other NT writers wrote.

James assured his suffering audience- and warned the wicked: “the cries of the reapers has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth” (v. 4). One should take note of the use of “the Lord of Sabaoth.” The term Sabaoth means the Lord of Hosts, i.e. the Lord of the Heavenly Armies. It was “the Lord Almighty”! This is a very thinly veiled threat that the armies of heaven were coming in judgment of the persecutors and in vindication of the suffering saints. In the Tanakh (what we call the OT) anytime the “Lord of Hosts” came, it was a day of judgment and destruction of the wicked as well as vindication for the righteous (Cf. The instances in Isaiah 1-6 which commentators have noted has strongly influenced James 5).

This motif of the cries of the Lord’s saints being heard by Him is reflected in Luke 18, which perhaps serves as the source of James 5. In Luke, Jesus assured his disciples that a time of horrific suffering was coming. But, he assured them, “Shall not God avenge His elect, who cry out to Him day and night? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily.” Here again we see the connection with Jesus’ promise of the vindication of the martyrs from Matthew 23. The point being that James is not giving some random, generic, timeless paranesis to his audience, saying that one day, by and by, who knows when, they would be vindicated. No, he was assuring them that the Lord had heard their cries for vindication and just as Jesus had promised, vindication was coming soon.

5. James then incorporates the imagery of the harvest that he had introduced in chapter 1:


“Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”

I must confess that it is more than a little disturbing to witness the attempts to avoid and deny the imminence that is undeniably in the text. Consider the following:

Throughout the NT the idea is presented that the end of the age harvest was near. John the Baptizer said that Christ’s winnowing fork was “already in his hand” (Matthew 3:10f). Keep in mind that the winnowing fork was not an image of the beginning of the harvest, but the end of the harvest and the time of separation!

Jesus said that the harvest would be at the end of “this age” (Matthew 13:39-40). That was the age in which he was living, the Old Covenant age. The end of the age would arrive with the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple, as even the apostles of Jesus understood (Matthew 24:1-3).

The very fact that James’ audience was the first fruit of the harvest demands that the harvest was underway! It was simply unthinkable to use the imagery of the harvest and the first fruit while denying the reality that with the first fruit, the harvest had begun. Only a preconceived idea of the nature of the harvest would suggest such a specious dichotomy.

James is emphatic: “Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” But, we are supposed to believe that the promised Day of vindication did not come in their lifetime. They died under that burden of suffering and persecution, believing – being told!– that the Lord’s coming in vindication was near, but, never receiving that promised relief.

I suggest that Kenneth Gentry’s comments on the book of Revelation (comments that he refuses – revealingly so – to apply to other books of the NT). Commenting on the promise in Revelation that the vindication for the suffering saints was near, and coming soon, Gentry had this to say:

“Another detriment to the strained interpretations listed above is that John was writing to historical churches existing in his own day (Rev. 1:4). He and they are presently suffering “tribulation” (Rev. 1:9a). John’s message (ultimately from Christ 1:1) calls upon each to give careful, spiritual attention to his words (2:7 etc). John is deeply concerned with the expectant cry of the martyrs and the divine promise of their soon vindication (6:10; cp. 5:3-5). He (John, DKP) would be cruelly mocking their circumstances (while committing a ‘verbal scam’ according to Mounce) were he telling them that when help comes it will come with swiftness–even though it may not come until two or three thousand years later.” (Kenneth Gentry, The Beast of Revelation, (Powder Springs, GA; American Vision, 2002), 27).

Amazingly, Gentry abandons this hermeneutic when he comes to 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 1, and other key eschatological texts where the saints were experiencing the same persecution as those in Revelation and were given the same promise of imminent relief at the coming of the Lord.

For Gentry, apparently the promise of vindication and relief for the saints in Revelation had to be fulfilled soon, within their lifetime, or else God would be cruelly mocking their suffering. But, in Romans, in Thessalonians, in Hebrews, in James, in Peter, etc., it was perfectly fine to use the language of imminent vindication at the Day of the Lord, when in fact no such soon coming vindication was intended! To say that this is inconsistent and self-defeating is a huge understatement. Sadly, other commentators make the same mistakes. See my book, In Flaming Fire, for an in-depth exegetical examination of 2 Thessalonians 1 and Paul’s promise to the suffering Thessalonian saints that they would receive relief from that then on-going persecution, “When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”

Our point here is that the harvest, of which the saints in James were the first fruit, was clearly posited as coming soon when James wrote his epistle. His paranesis to remain faithful, “until the coming of the Lord” only makes sense if he had the coming of the Lord in mind. And rightly considered this means that his audience was the first fruit of the resurrection.

His emphatic declaration that the Lord’s parousia “has drawn near” cannot be denied without doing horrible injustice to the linguistics of the text. That was not a “spatial” nearness, but temporal.

And, his statement that the Lord, the Judge, was standing “right at the door” is an undeniable allusion and echo of Matthew 24:32. There, Jesus told his apostles that when they saw the signs of the end that he had given, “when you see these things come to pass, then know that it is nigh, even at the doors.”

When we combine James’ testimony of the imminent harvest with the testimony of Revelation 7 & 14 in regard to the first fruit and the impending harvest, at the coming of the Son of Man in judgment of Babylon, the city “where the Lord was slain” (Revelation 11:8 / 14:6f), there can be little doubt that the NT posits the end of the age harvest, the coming of the Lord, as a first century event. Those in James and Reveltion were clearly the first fruit of the resurrection!

Not only that, when we honor the nature of the first fruit in James and in Revelation, it precludes any idea of a physical resurrection of dead corpses coming out of the dirt. This is incredibly important, and yet, mostly ignored.

So, what we have in James is this. The writer speaks of the past life of his audience. Like Adam, they had lived lives of lust and sin that had “given birth” to death in them. Like Adam, when they sinned, they had died. They had belonged to the Old World of sin and death. Again, one would think it unnecessary to point out that they had not died physically. They had died spiritually.

But now, they had been raised from that death (and according to Ephesians 1:12f, given the charismatic gifts of the Spirit as the guarantee of the coming consummation of what had been initiated in them). Whereas their former life had given birth to death, now, they had died to death; they had been “begotten” to life! They had become the first fruit of God’s New Creation; the first fruit of the resurrection!

Since neither the death that they had died was physical death, nor was resurrection / “birthing” a physical raising from biological death. This serves as virtual prima facie proof that the resurrection harvest that was so imminent was not a literal resurrection from biological death.

 
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Ephesians321

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For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Romans 1:20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:15-16

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17

By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.
Hebrews 11:27

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:5

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:19

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Matthew 16:27-28

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
John 18:36
 
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