Full Preterist Safe House

parousia70

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This is a rebuttal from parousia's post #347.

Actually, from every evangelical Christian's view.


Again, complete agreement.


Agreed.


Right.
Nice to start off with so much agreement!

What preterists seem to miss is that the Bible describes TWO resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
No, we don't miss that at all. I even address it in the post you are quoting... did you miss that?
So then, preterists deny the literalness of Rev 20. Sad.

What isn't Literal about:
We are not still waiting for Hades to be destroyed. We are not still waiting for the Law of Moses to reach its end. We are not still waiting for the dead to be raised out of Hades and taken into their eternal inheritance in Heaven or eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire ("hell" in common parlance). All the dead are now either in Heaven's eternal bliss or in hell. There is no Hadean realm anymore. Hades was destroyed when the dead were raised out of it (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

All of that is Literal.

Which temple are you referring to?
The same one Paul was referring to.
Which one do you think it is?

Paul's point is that Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is the VICTORY over death. And believers will never die spiritually But all unbelievers will experience the SECOND death.
Do you deny that 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 ties the timing of this victory to the timing of the removal of the LAW?

What you haven't proven is that all prophesy has been fulfilled already.

You asked specifically about the Resurrection.

I've demonstrated How scripture ties the timing of the resurrection to the removal of the Law Age, and you have not demonstrated How scripture is (or I am) wrong about that.

I don't believe all Prophesy is fulfilled anyway so I'm unclear why you'd want me to prove otherwise?

There are certain prophesies that, by their very nature, Remain in a ongoing state of perpetual, ongoing, greater fulfillment "even forever", and have no terminus.

Isaiah 9:7 would be one example.
“Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
 
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robycop3

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Correct.


Incorrect. Jesus "brings with Him" all the saints from heaven (already died) and gather up the living saints.

1 thess 4:-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
That event is the rapture. God will call the souls of the righteous to be with Jesus when He comes in the air to call & catch up the saints still living as mortals.


No, the Second Advent of Christ will occur at the end of the Trib, when He Himself ends it at the battle of Armageddon. Rev 20 speaks of the FIRST resurrection in v.5.

Nupe! That'll be the rapture. Remember, He said He's keep His Church from the trial that'll come upon the whole world, which'll be the trib.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"So then, preterists deny the literalness of Rev 20. Sad."
What isn't Literal about:
We are not still waiting for Hades to be destroyed. We are not still waiting for the Law of Moses to reach its end. We are not still waiting for the dead to be raised out of Hades and taken into their eternal inheritance in Heaven or eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire ("hell" in common parlance). All the dead are now either in Heaven's eternal bliss or in hell. There is no Hadean realm anymore. Hades was destroyed when the dead were raised out of it (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

All of that is Literal.
What about Rev 20:1-10? You didn't address that part of Rev 20.

Do you deny that 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 ties the timing of this victory to the timing of the removal of the LAW?
55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Prove that these verses tie victory to removing the Law. I don't see anything about victory tied to anything except Christ's death on the cross.

I've demonstrated How scripture ties the timing of the resurrection to the removal of the Law Age, and you have not demonstrated How scripture is (or I am) wrong about that.
I am a dispensationalist. I agree that the age of the Law is over. I don't care when that specifically occurred.

I don't believe all Prophesy is fulfilled anyway so I'm unclear why you'd want me to prove otherwise?
Isn't that the view of preterists?
 
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FreeGrace2

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That event is the rapture. God will call the souls of the righteous to be with Jesus when He comes in the air to call & catch up the saints still living as mortals.
Don't you believe 1 Thess 4? 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Since Jesus "brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him" we know that their souls are in heaven.
 
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robycop3

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Don't you believe 1 Thess 4? 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Since Jesus "brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him" we know that their souls are in heaven.
What in that verse establishes they're not in paradise? When Jesus left paradise at His resurrection, He came alone. Who brought Him out of paradise? HIS FATHER. So, why cn't he call the souls of the righteous outta paradise to meet Jesus in the air at the rapture?

They'll go to heaven then, & accompany Him when He physically returns to earth, but they're still in paradise now.
 
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parousia70

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I said:
"So then, preterists deny the literalness of Rev 20. Sad."

What about Rev 20:1-10? You didn't address that part of Rev 20.

The thousand years?
The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!


The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

Amazing LITERAL History.


55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Prove that these verses tie victory to removing the Law. I don't see anything about victory tied to anything except Christ's death on the cross.

"The sting of Death is Sin, and the Power of Sin is the Law"

No Law = No Power of Sin = No Sting of Death.
These are inseparable.

Scripture demonstrates that the Law was still intact and operational (Thus enabling Sin to be the Sting of Death) Decades AFTER the Cross:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:20)


If Paul tells us that there were those who were actually "under the Law", and the writer of Hebrews testifies the law was still intact but "growing old and ready to vanish" decades after the Cross, I'm inclined to believe them.
Aren't you?

I am a dispensationalist. I agree that the age of the Law is over. I don't care when that specifically occurred.

Noted. Then you have no issue with the scriptural testimony that it did not happen until long AFTER the Cross.

Isn't that the view of preterists?

No. But don't be ashamed. Yours is a very common misunderstanding of what Preterists believe.

Preterists view Eschatology as having been fulfilled. As I demonstrated, there are other, non eschatological prophesies that, by their very nature, continue in ongoing fulfillment forever, and thus have no terminus.

Now you know :)
 
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FreeGrace2

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What in that verse establishes they're not in paradise?
Easy. Where does Jesus come FROM? Heaven, obviously, as Rev 19 shows.

And who is with Him? All the saints who have already died.

When Jesus left paradise at His resurrection, He came alone.
Can you show any verse that makes this clear. In fact, Jesus took all the saints in Abraham's bosom (Paradise) to heaven.

Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

So, where did Jesus "took" them?

Who brought Him out of paradise? HIS FATHER. So, why cn't he call the souls of the righteous outta paradise to meet Jesus in the air at the rapture?
Because Eph 4:8 says He TOOK them, when He "ascended on high", meaning heaven, of course.

They'll go to heaven then, & accompany Him when He physically returns to earth, but they're still in paradise now.
Eph 4:8 refutes your claim. They are in heaven now.

What did Paul say about physical death? 2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

iow, at physical death, our souls leave our physical bodies and are "at home with the Lord".

For your theory to be correct, Jesus would have to STILL BE IN Paradise right now.

Are you prepared to make that argument?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The thousand years?
The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium.
Well, you just revealed that you do not believe Rev 20:1-10. Because it is obviously literal.

The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.
The apostle John wrote Revelation. Here are the verses that refute your claim.

Rev 20:1-

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

5 mentions of 1,000 years, and 2 mentions of the 1,000 years ENDING.

That proves the 1,000 years is a specific time period. Which has an end.

When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the SECOND Advent, He comes as King of kings, and Lord of lords. What do kings do? They REIGN. And He will, for 1,000 years, which will then END with the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgment of Rev 20:11-15. And then we have ch 21, and the new heavens and new earth, with the new Jerusalem coming down to earth.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)
(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)
(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)
See above for proper order.

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.
John, the "beloved" apostle didn't make a mistake. He wrote about a very literal 1,000 year reign of Christ when He returns.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.
The 1,000 years has an END. Explain what that means in your theory.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...
wait for it......
1000 LITERAL years!
Unbelievable! Rev 20 is literal. All of it.

Now you know :)
Yes, know that you don't believe Rev 20:1-10. Which is literal.

Kings reign. That's what they do. Jesus comes back as KING. And you just dismiss it. Jesus has NOT reigned as King yet. So the time between David and Jesus, and from Jesus' First Advent does not represent anyone's reign.

There has been NO 1,000 year reign ever. But that will change when Christ returns.
 
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robycop3

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The thousand years?
The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!


The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

Amazing LITERAL History.




"The sting of Death is Sin, and the Power of Sin is the Law"

No Law = No Power of Sin = No Sting of Death.
These are inseparable.

Scripture demonstrates that the Law was still intact and operational (Thus enabling Sin to be the Sting of Death) Decades AFTER the Cross:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:20)


If Paul tells us that there were those who were actually "under the Law", and the writer of Hebrews testifies the law was still intact but "growing old and ready to vanish" decades after the Cross, I'm inclined to believe them.
Aren't you?



Noted. Then you have no issue with the scriptural testimony that it did not happen until long AFTER the Cross.



No. But don't be ashamed. Yours is a very common misunderstanding of what Preterists believe.

Preterists view Eschatology as having been fulfilled. As I demonstrated, there are other, non eschatological prophesies that, by their very nature, continue in ongoing fulfillment forever, and thus have no terminus.

Now you know :)
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
A big pret prob is that they try to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures that prove their doctrine wrong to "figurative/symbolic" status. Well, THAT WON'T WORK! The events they prophesy simply HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. History PROVES that.

Jesus' other prophecies have LITERALLY come to pass so far, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, so there's no valid reason to believe the rest won't come to pass just-as-literally & just-as-exactly.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Correct.


Incorrect. Jesus "brings with Him" all the saints from heaven (already died) and gather up the living saints.

1 thess 4:-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


No, the Second Advent of Christ will occur at the end of the Trib, when He Himself ends it at the battle of Armageddon. Rev 20 speaks of the FIRST resurrection in v.5.
Don't you believe 1 Thess 4? 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Since Jesus "brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him" we know that their souls are in heaven.
"We(1st person pronoun) who are alive(Present participle active)and remain(Present participle middle) Meaning they are presently alive and there are those who would still be alive when He comes.
Jesus says the same thing here:
Matthew 16:
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
 
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Ed Parenteau

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John saw a vision of His return. And several others saw His transfiguration when He was with Moses & Elijah.

And when the rapture occurs, no saint will taste death. But Jesus said some of the disciples wouldn't taste death UNTIL...
At the transfiguration He didn't come in the glory of the Father with His angels and with His reward which is called "coming in his kingdom". In fact, He didn't "come" from anywhere, He was already with them. He transfigured from his human body and showed them His "Majestic Glory".

Apparently the disciples believed what you do until Jesus corrects them. Here Peter is asking Jesus about the "disciple whom Jesus loved". John 21: 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
 
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robycop3

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Easy. Where does Jesus come FROM? Heaven, obviously, as Rev 19 shows.

And who is with Him? All the saints who have already died.


Can you show any verse that makes this clear. In fact, Jesus took all the saints in Abraham's bosom (Paradise) to heaven.

Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

So, where did Jesus "took" them?


Because Eph 4:8 says He TOOK them, when He "ascended on high", meaning heaven, of course.


Eph 4:8 refutes your claim. They are in heaven now.

What did Paul say about physical death? 2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

iow, at physical death, our souls leave our physical bodies and are "at home with the Lord".

For your theory to be correct, Jesus would have to STILL BE IN Paradise right now.

Are you prepared to make that argument?
The souls in paradise are not captives. More than one Christian on earth is.

And the Lord can be anywhere, in multiple places ar the same time. He can be in paradise any time He chooses.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The souls in paradise are not captives.
Where does the Bible indicate that any souls are still in paradise?

More than one Christian on earth is.
I don't understand this. Please explain.

And the Lord can be anywhere, in multiple places ar the same time. He can be in paradise any time He chooses.
The Bible has told us WHEN He went there; to preach to the spirits in prison.

The point is to prove that there are any saints still in paradise.
 
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robycop3

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At the transfiguration He didn't come in the glory of the Father with His angels and with His reward which is called "coming in his kingdom". In fact, He didn't "come" from anywhere, He was already with them. He transfigured from his human body and showed them His "Majestic Glory".

Apparently the disciples believed what you do until Jesus corrects them. Here Peter is asking Jesus about the "disciple whom Jesus loved". John 21: 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
But the fact remains that JESUS HAS NOT YET PHYSICALLY RETURNED, seen by all, as He said. And He will return immediately after the end of the great trib, which hasn't yet occurred, either. In fact, NONE of the eschatological events have yet occurred, so evidently Jesus was referring to an event which HAS occurred, & His transfiguration may well have been that event. After all, when He does return, Moe & Lige will be with Him.
 
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robycop3

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Where does the Bible indicate that any souls are still in paradise?
Where does it say any have already left it, besided Jesus?


I don't understand this. Please explain.
In Iran & several other Islamic nations, people are in prisons merely for being Christians.


The Bible has told us WHEN He went there; to preach to the spirits in prison.

The point is to prove that there are any saints still in paradise.
We know that all the souls of the righteous who died have gone there. The ACTUAL point is to show that any have left there besides Jesus Himself. (Except for Lazarus, Dorcas, & Jairus' daughter, who later died again & returned there.

And the 'torments' area of hades is still occupied. Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where the BEAST & THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, not where all who died in sin are-yet. They'll be sent there at the Great White Throne judgment. THAT'S when hades will be completely emptied. Its paradise area will be emptied at the rapture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Where does it say any have already left it, besided Jesus?
Jesus went to Paradise to take all saints to heaven. That's the usual interp from Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

These red words indicate that Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection, and the phrase "He led many captives and gave gifts to His people" means to "lead a triumphal procession of one's own solders along with their captives".

This phrase is a reference to Christ leading the saints who had previously died that is, they died prior to His ascension. This would include ALL OT saints. They are called "captives" because they do not have a resurrection body yet. They will not have a resurrection body until the Second Advent of Christ.

We know that all the souls of the righteous who died have gone there. The ACTUAL point is to show that any have left there besides Jesus Himself. (Except for Lazarus, Dorcas, & Jairus' daughter, who later died again & returned there.
What evidence do you have for OT saints still in Paradise?

And the 'torments' area of hades is still occupied. Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where the BEAST & THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, not where all who died in sin are-yet. They'll be sent there at the Great White Throne judgment. THAT'S when hades will be completely emptied. Its paradise area will be emptied at the rapture.
This is correct.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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But the fact remains that JESUS HAS NOT YET PHYSICALLY RETURNED, seen by all, as He said. And He will return immediately after the end of the great trib, which hasn't yet occurred, either. In fact, NONE of the eschatological events have yet occurred, so evidently Jesus was referring to an event which HAS occurred, & His transfiguration may well have been that event. After all, when He does return, Moe & Lige will be with Him.
Then tell me, which of those disciples died in those six days? Because He said only some of them wouldn't die.
 
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robycop3

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Jesus went to Paradise to take all saints to heaven. That's the usual interp from Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

These red words indicate that Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection, and the phrase "He led many captives and gave gifts to His people" means to "lead a triumphal procession of one's own solders along with their captives".

This phrase is a reference to Christ leading the saints who had previously died that is, they died prior to His ascension. This would include ALL OT saints. They are called "captives" because they do not have a resurrection body yet. They will not have a resurrection body until the Second Advent of Christ.


What evidence do you have for OT saints still in Paradise?


This is correct.
There's nothing that says the saints have left paradise.
 
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robycop3

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Then tell me, which of those disciples died in those six days? Because He said only some of them wouldn't die.
Not all of the disciples saw His transfiguration, nor were present at His death. But the simple FACT is, Jesus hasn't yet returned.
 
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