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Full Head on Soul Sleep is Unbiblical.

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Bible Highlighter, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Full head on soul sleep is unbiblical.

    For what about those whose bodies have been incinerated and their ashes were cast away at sea? How will they hear? What about those corpses whose inner ears (to hear) have decayed away?

    Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with him that day in Paradise.

    Jesus told us about a narrative of what happens when a person dies. Jesus describes a place like hell and He briefly mentions a good place (Abraham's bosom) where the saints go.

    Jesus is in the heart of the Earth for 3 days and 3 nights. This cannot be the grave because Jesus was not buried deep beneath the Earth or in some kind of deep sink hole. Jesus was literally in the center of the Earth. He was in the spiritual realm within the heart of the Earth.

    Jesus spoke to the spirits in prison (Which was no doubt in the heart of the Earth).

    After the Pre-Trib Rapture:
    The saints who are martyred for Jesus during the Tribulation by the anti-christ cry out to God for vengeance under God's alter up in Heaven. This is the breaking of the 5th seal.

    When Christ returns, we then see saints follow Jesus into the battle of Armageddon.

    As for John 5:28-29:
    The way I understand this passage is that when it comes time for the new physical body to be resurrected, it will come forth as a part of the resurrection and have ears to hear. It does not suggest that the soul or the spirit is resting with the body or ashes that are scattered across the entire sea.

    "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

    Paul says, for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21).
    It does not really sound like one is gaining anything if one is taking a dirt nap.

    James says, the body without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). So obviously the spirit is not with the body when it is dead; Otherwise, James would be lying (and that is not possible).


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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    And discuss.


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  3. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    So, Jesus was lying?
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The angel was lying to Daniel?

    Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    David was confused?

    Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

    Job was wrong?

    Job 19:25-27 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!

    Paul didn't know what he was talking about?

    1 Cor 15:20-23 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming

    1 Cor 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    Sorry, I believe all of them.

    No, Jesus told the thief that day, he would be with him in Paradise. Jesus then went to hell, for the next 3 days;
    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    No. Jesus told a PARABLE, about the gospel being taken from the nation of Israel, and given to the Gentiles.
    Hogwash. There is no "spiritual realm within the heart of the Earth", that's pagan nonsense. The phrase "heart of the Earth" is synonymous with "grave".

    Not according to Jesus;
    Luke 4:16-21 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
    17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


    Jesus, BY THE SPIRIT, preached to those in prision (the captives).

    There is no "Pre-Trib Rapture". NO ONE is raised from the dead to immortality until Jesus returns to the earth forever, and there are only 2 resurrections, the righteous "at his coming", and the wicked plus all that die DURING the 1,000 year reign on the earth at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev 20)

    Hey! We agree on this one!! :cool:
    The entire person is in the grave. Their breath is gone, they aren't thinking, they have "returned to dust" exactly like Jehovah/YHVH God said (Gen 3:19).
    You are attempting to read pagan theories into Christ's clear simple statement.

    Exactly! And what God gave is BREATH! (Gen 2:7)

    You are ignoring Paul's repeated teaching of the RESURRECTION!!! In sleep there is NO knowledge of time! Paul's next waking thought will be as a resurrected, immortal being!

    Again! Spirit=breath in this context, and MANY others.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. I already explained it to you. If a believer's ashes are cast at sea, they will not be in any grave and nor will they have ears to hear. This is talking exclusively about the resurrected body coming forth. It does not mean it is talking about the soul and spirit residing with the body in the grave the whole time. The soul and spirit can easily be placed within the body when it is time for the new body to come forth.

    See answer above.

    See answer above.

    One can see God in the spirit and in the body. For Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. Angels are spirits and they see God all the time. For as many as received Christ, gave he power to become sons of God (John 1:12). Hence, why this..."mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:53). For God's good angels are immortal beings.

    Again, Paul talked of a natural body and a spiritual body. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the resurrection of the spirit body (i.e. the receiving of a new spirit body); And the time shortly before the Millennium and after the Millennium (shortly before the Judgment) are times of when God will bring forth the natural body type resurrections.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 is the natural body resurrection.
    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is the spiritual body resurrection.

    So do I. You are just reading them in the wrong way.

    Moving the comma around does not change how it naturally sounds. Jesus is plainly saying to the thief that He would be with him Paradise that day. That day and not tomorrow or next week. Jesus did not say, this day I say unto you, "You will one day be with me in Paradise." That would be the more appropriate phrase if Jesus really wanted to convey that idea.

    This is saying that Jesus's soul was not left in hell (the realm of the dead) and his flesh did not see corruption in the grave or tomb. Hell (the people of hell) can be moved to greet a particular individual. For it is written...

    "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations" (Isaiah 14:9).

    Not true. First, the "Story of Lazarus and the Richman" was not called a Parable and it did not speak generically. Second, all of Jesus's parables were based on real world examples of something that was true that has already happened or that was going to happen in our real world (at some point). Jesus did not speak untruth or fictional bed time stories to us. Jesus always spoke truth. To tell a fictional story is technically a lie or an untruth. So if you believe Jesus told a bed time story or a story that was a lie, then by all means, go ahead and believe that.

    Who told you that? Some guy in an article? Or was that the Word of God?

    No. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison who died in the global flood for their wickedness.

    1 Peter 3:19-20 (NLT) says,

    "So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat."​

    The same thing is said in the KJV,

    "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.."​

    Not true. In fact, there are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

    At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

    Hebrews 9:28 ESV

    So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

    Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

    Revelation 1:7

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    John 14:3

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

    However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

    Jude 1:14

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

    Revelation 19:14

    And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

    At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

    Matthew 25:10

    And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

    But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

    Luke 12:36

    And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.​

    4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

    First, John sees the souls of those sitting on thrones; And John says he had seen the souls who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. These are they that will go through the 1,000 year reign of Christ in Revelation 20 that is a part of the 1st resurrection. Nothing is mentioned of other believers who are not a part of these two groups. So the rest of the dead (i.e. the remaining believers and the wicked) will live not again until the 1,000 years will be finished.

    But notice WHERE the saints come from. They do not come from the graves or anything. They follow Jesus down from out of the clouds. This suggests that the saints were coming down from out of Heaven with Jesus. So they were in Heaven!

    I can say the same for you, but the real proof is the plain reading of Scripture.

    It doesn't change anything if that was true or not. The truth is that God has a soul and a spirit and angels have souls and spirits so that does not mean that man's soul and spirit cannot also continue on to exist outside of a physical body (as some falsely assume). The spirit returns to God and it does not stay with the body or the ashes until the physical resurrection.

    While that may be true in your universe, that is simply not going to happen.
    To gain in death, is not something that should involve a distortion of time. To die is gain is the most pure and true if one dies and they gain in being with Christ immediately.

    James 2:26 says the body is dead without the spirit. This means the spirit continues on without the body. Angels are spirits and they are not sleeping. God is a spirit and He is not sleeping.


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  5. awitch

    awitch Well-Known Member

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  6. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Respectfully, and I am not taking a side here... but to extend that line of reasoning to other areas would then exclude others from heaven or the coming Kingdom, whichever you believe we see next. For example, one who can't speak can't "profess the Lord" with their lips... and if they are deaf, blind and unable to speak then how can they even hear the gospel? Since God is the author of DNA, I am fairly certain He can recreate somebody even if they were eaten by a Shark and turned into fish dung... or.... cremated into ash. And on the latter, how about the saint who gave their life for the gospel sake and were burned at the stake... same thing as cremation, are they eternally lost?

    I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

    I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

    There is no punctuation in the Greek and where we insert it within our translations depends on the bias of the translator.

    There is a resurrection yet nowhere does the bible say that God rejoins your soul which was in heaven to your body being raised from the grave. So either position has to infer or assume at least a portion of what they believe.

    By the way... if you die and go to heaven and open your eyes next there... you see the Lord. If you die and remain asleep and then open them as He comes to resurrect you... you see the Lord. Either way, when you die, the next thing you see is the Lord. So I personally don't care which is correct. :)
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    We are discussing the contrast between the Biblical teaching that death is like sleep, the dead are not alive ..... with the popular notion that there is life during death.
    I am utterly convinced by Scripture, there is no life during death. The dead are NOT alive. The ONLY hope available for the dead is resurrection FROM the dead.
     
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  8. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful post! Great attitude, and great points. I need to remain more peaceful, and gentle in posts!
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I just replied to your post here in post #4.
    Note: You may have to hit refresh on the page.


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  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My first impression of what he was saying originally (Which appears to be different now) was that he was saying that the dead bodies had to be in their graves in order to hear based on the passage in John. My point is the one you are making. The new resurrected body will come forth no matter what happened to the body. The word "graves" here would be the old ashes coming up so as to form a new resurrected body.

    I am aware of this trickery of word play and it is bogus. God's Word is perserved for our world language today.

    Truth should always be important to us. To teach error or wrong things is not right.
    God teaches us all things; And we should cherish and be grateful for that truth.


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  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, I want to add that we know a man can see God while he is in his flesh.
    Moses had seen God's back parts. Men have seen angels. Angels can obviously see God. So the idea that man has to sleep and cannot see God as a spirit does not make any sense.


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  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We often agree... on this point we don't. To think that Hebrew, for example, can be brought into English perfectly says only that we don't understand language. There are words in the Hebrew not even in the English, and I can show you places where we have an English word that is the best fit but that doesn't fully cover the concept conveyed in the Hebrew. We are living the 21st century Jason... we read a 2000-3500 year old Semitic document in English... we define our words in English... we think western not Semitic... and then we don't think ANY context has been lost. Even Paul uses rule of exegesis over 30 times in his writings that directly effect context and we aren't even taught these rules exist.

    This is what "studying to show yourself approved" means... not just reading in English but STUDYING.

    Blessings.
    Ken
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I do realize that there may be deeper meanings in the original languages, but not for a second do I think they say something different at times between what the English says. For God has preserved His Word for our world today and not just in some dead language alone that nobody really knows with 100% certainty.


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I also want to add that believers will be like the angels in the "spiritual body type resurrection" in the Pre-Trib Rapture in the fact that Jesus said we will be like the angels in Heaven whereby we will not be given into marriage (like them).


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  15. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    I take it this way. When the living go to sleep they are no longer conscious of this world, but still still continue to experience. When we die we "sleep" in the sense that we are no longer conscious to the living world. That seems to fit both sides of the common debate, that we have clear and explicit sleep passages, as well as passages with the conscious dead and ancient burial traditions that suggest a belief in consciousness in the afterlife.
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're welcome to believe whatever you want brother. I will give you one example... go look up the word "b'rit" in Hebrew... we translated that as covenant. In NO WAY can that be "testament" and "covenant" is part of the concept (an agreement) but a b'rit ALWAYS involves cutting, blood. That concept is not in covenant and certainly not in testament.

    Some dead language? If you're interested I can help you with that... if not, like I said, believe whatever you want. I will leave your thread alone now... this isn't on your topic.

    Peace.
    Ken
     
  17. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And there is something else... and then I will be done. :) Is the phrase "pre-trib rapture" in the bible, anywhere? No... not even close, and yet you use it and it is part of your life and the phrase was never used by God. So you defend the English when it agrees with you, and then ignore it when it doesn't and pretend somebody might not notice?
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, I believe it is possible that their may be a "Parital Soul Sleep" for the wicked.

    Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

    However, a "Full Head on Soul Sleep" does not jive or work when reading Scripture, though. There are some really good verses that talk about the conciousness of various individuals after death.


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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, the translators on the KJV did not pull a magic rabbit out of their hat when they were translating these things. I trust them and not you, my friend. Why? Because they all checked their work; And many of them knew Hebrew and Greek. So it wasn't one man's interpretation ruling here.

    While that is nice of you to offer, I am doing okay just fine with reading my Bible in the English.
    Someday God may lead me to study Hebrew or Greek. If that day happens, I will first learn how to speak and write amongst that culture first and then compare and study the Modern equivalent with the Biblical version of that language (and how that lines up with the English). I am kind of fascinated by Ancient Hebrew because it is picture focused. I have a little study book on Ancient Hebrew, but I take what they say with a grain of salt next to what my Bible says in English. I do not believe God requires me to study another language. Nowhere in His Word does He tell me to do this.

    May God's peace be unto you, my friend.

    With loving kindness to you in Christ,

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I have had this conversation before many times over the years on Christian forums. So it is not new for me, my friend. So yes, I am well aware there are many things not mentioned in the Bible. However, I do not see your point here in where you are going with this.

    What are you talking about?
    Do you have post #'s and specific words?


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