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Full Head on Soul Sleep is Unbiblical.

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Bible Highlighter, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe the Scriptures teach that there is going to be only ONE Judgment (after the Millennium) that will be in two parts. The first part or half of the Judgment will be of God's people. The second half or part of the Judgment will be for the wicked. The Judgment will take place on the New Earth, where the wicked will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. in the Kingdom (i.e. the city of New Jerusalem), but they themselves will be thrust out (by God's angels). For the wicked (or anything that defiles) will not be allowed to enter the city of New Jerusalem.


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  2. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

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    I have no pony in this race... but when "death" occurs I believe the soul ascends to the spiritual worlds and whatever positive attributes or spiritual qualities we've acquired in this life prepare us for the next. Jesus saying on the cross "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) tends to confirm the aforementioned I believe.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus says he was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). So Heaven cannot be Paradise. I believe Paradise is the place known as "Abraham's Bosom" in the "Story of Lazarus and the Richman." (Luke 16:19-31). So when Jesus was talking to the thief on the cross about "Paradise" he was referring to a place in the heart of the Earth. A "temporary paradise" before the Rapture takes place. After the Rapture, all believers who die in the Lord, will then go directly to Heaven. For in the Rapture, the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Where are the dead in Christ exactly rising from? Abraham's bosom in the heart of the Earth. Paradise.


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  4. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course they have a physical body! Where in the WORLD do you get these notions?? NO being has a NON-physical body!!!
    So? Paul doesn't say angels have a spiritual body. You keep inventing things, the text simply doesn't say!!

    You just demonstrated a HORRIBLE job of exegesis, and you expect that to somehow persuade me to believe you, rather than the actual STATEMENT of Scripture???
    NO Scripture states "angels have spiritual bodies"... and even if there WAS such a passage, that has NOTHING to do with the dead being dead.
    On the other hand, the Scriptures DO state, "...thou shalt die, and not live".... and "... the rest of the dead lived not again, until the thousand years were finished".
    Sorry, hands down, you don't win.
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The bible does not address that issue. They obviously can and also speak.
     
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    The apparent implication of what you've said is that a person's name gets written in, blotted out, written back in, blotted back out again, written back in, blotted back out, written back in again, blotted back out again...and hopefully he dies while it's written in.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, it is why Scripture says,

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

    You know? That whole work out your salvation with fear and trembling thing?


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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    They obviously do not inhabit this physical world in the same exact way we do. People can be demon possessed and yet we do not actually see evil spirits flying around. Logic dictates that they are unseen in the spirit world (i.e. the dimension we cannot see). For what do you think the transfiguration of the Mount was all about? Moses and Elijah were there talking with Jesus. If they were dead and unconscious or sleeping, then they would not abe to talk with Jesus.


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  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So how can tons of demons live inside one person then? That sounds like a contradiction of physics or a contradiction within the physical world for such a thing to happen. Obviously things are different in the spirit world. Granted, angels can interact with our physical world, but they can also pass through things that are physical here. If not, then fallen angels could not possess anyone.

    You are the first person I have ever ran into who believe angels are not spirit beings. I am sure if you do a study on angels, you would come back with a different perspective. But it is commonly understood based on just a few passages that they are spirit beings and can appear as men (meaning they have spirit bodies).

    This is like saying the word Bible is not in the Holy Scriptures so we should not call it that. This is pretty basic stuff that I am not going to even bother arguing with you over. Do your homework on this topic. Read every article you can on angels and how they are spirits and pray and look over the Scriptures.


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  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Moses and Elijah are special cases (and Enoch would be another special case). We know Elijah was taken to heaven without dying.

    We also know that the angel Michael took special possession of Moses' body for some reason (body taken to heaven...sounds like some kind of resurrection).
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Elijah was translated---never saw death. It is indicated that Moses was raised from the dead--
    Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
     
  12. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    How big are they?
    How much affect does malaria, or rabies, have on the person?
    Or alcohol? How does something so tiny affect the brain?
    And THIS option isn't the ONLY option!
    How did God cause Jacob, Nebuchadnezar, Pharaoh, Isaiah or Ezekiel to see things in dreams?
    Is it possible that possession isn't another being inhabiting the person, but the ability to take control of their mind? And, when the Scriptures discuss "casting out", it is actually removing that ability?
    There is no "spirit world". That's pure fiction.
    That's a common misunderstanding. If YOU would actually study the subject, you will find the Scriptures NEVER .... EVER .... describe some being naturally being invisible. The Scriptures, in SEVERAL cases, explain people were PREVENTED from seeing some being, and then their eyes were "opened", and they were ABLE to see what they had previously been PREVENTED from seeing;
    Luke 24:15-16 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
    Luke 24:30-31 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


    2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

    Sorry, your example doesn't work. I am not denying your premise based on the lack of a word. I am denying your premise based on the Scriptures stating the opposite.
     
  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Moses and Elijah were seen in a vision, not literally, read the verses immediately following.
    Elijah was NOT taken to God's presence in heaven, he was merely taken up into the air/heaven, and away from Elisha. Elijah actually wrote a letter, a couple of years later, to Jehoram, King of Judah. (2 Chron 21:12)
    Enoch was translated from living, to dead, so that he might not see/experience death.
     
  14. Taom Ben Robert

    Taom Ben Robert Roman Catholic

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    Shouldn't this be in the Christian theology forum?
    If not, well soul sleep and conditional Immortality vs Eternal Torment is something I'd like to see.( As long as it's Charitable)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus said that no man ascends to Heaven except Himself, when He said,

    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13 KJV)​

    In other words, no man has ascended physically to Heaven but Jesus (i.e. the Son of Man).

    Yeah, but what about Elijah?

    I believe confusion arises on this point because people do not understand that there are:


    Three Heavens

    The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!

    The First Heaven:

    The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25;34:20,Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'

    Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.

    Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

    Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39,Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."

    Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

    The Second Heaven:

    The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5;22:17;26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.

    The Third Heaven:

    The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4,Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.

    Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.


    Source:
    Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
    Important Note: Although I quoted part of this article to help explain the three heavens, I do not agree with their interpretation of on Enoch. I believe Enoch was translated or spiritually taken by God and did not see death (as the Scriptures say). So not all the views expressed at this website reflect my views on the Scriptures.


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  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for Elijah being taken away to the 1st Heaven (i.e. the Sky), Philip was taken away by the Spirit to another location:

    For just as Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.
    Philip was talking to an Ethiopian in a chariot.
    And later, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more. Just as Elisha had seen Elijah taken away. (Compare 2 Kings 2:11, 12 & Acts 8:38, 39, 40).


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  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So let me get this straight, you believe Jesus did not cast out demons?
    The demons that were many called themselves "legion."
    The Bible references demons many times. This is like not wanting to see what is plainly written.

    Oookay. If you say so. The Bible says otherwise.

    This is simply so that he may see the spiritual realm. We have a spiritual body and a natural body. Our spirit inside of us is invisible. The transfiguration on the Mount shows that things look differently in the spirit world. Jesus' clothes were really bright white, etc.


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  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyways, Moses and Elijah are not special cases. No Scripture verse says that. God is no respecter of persons. I believe they are with the other saints in Paradise (i.e. Abraham's bosom). For we see in the "Story of Lazarus and the Richman" that Abraham is talking with a richman who physically died. After the Rapture, saints who die in the Lord will then go straight to Heaven. For we see the saints who were beheaded for Jesus during the Tribulation are under the altar of God crying for vengeance. So no. Moses and Elijah are not special cases.


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  19. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Re-read my post, and show me where I said Jesus did not cast out demons. Did you even read it?
    Your claim doesn't provide any Scripture.
    We both know why.
    There is no such thing as "the spirit realm". The Scripture states these examples the OPPOSITE of your claim. It's the EYES of the people that are opened, so that they can see what is LITERALLY there!!

    There isn't a single example of YOUR theory in Scripture.
    And, your theory utterly fails the "reality test". There is no such thing as an immaterial entity!!

     
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Okay, all right, nothing special about being taken away in a fiery chariot. Happens to all of us.
     
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