• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Full Head on Soul Sleep is Unbiblical.

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Bible Highlighter, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,199
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The point is simply this... if you are KJV only and solo scriptura... the quote scripture and stop using phrases from outside of the bible to support something you think is there. One day, as an aside, we can discuss the PTR. It is a modern teaching (mid-1800's) and easily destroyed by Scripture. If there is one it is at the end not the beginning.
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,977
    Christian
    Married
    The important thing here is that the end is the same: A quickened spirit in a material body. This is like two people equally enjoying a television program and arguing over the station break.

    Now, those who believe there are saints to pray to (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox) do have a theological stake in this debate. But the rest of us don't really have a dog in the fight.

    Personally, I theorize the spirit goes to be with the Lord, but I'm not sure it's self-aware while it is there, but may be in a blissful slumber until awakening in a resurrected body.

    But if that's how it actually turns out, I'll be jazzed to be there anyway.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I have no idea what you are talking about, my friend.


    ...
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The problem I see is that "Full Head on Soul Sleep" attempts to by pass the immediate judgment by God.


    ...
     
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,199
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No, you can't see your own errors, only those in others. You are pushing one certain translation and have stated here and privately that "it is the preserved Word of God" without error. And yet you use phrases outside of Scripture to back certain positions you have which you don't see is going outside of the word of God. If you are going to be KJV only and take such a hard line stance on that as you have, then be KJV and stop pulling in phrases from outside of the bible while at the same time pronouncing only what is in your preferred version to be "it."
     
  6. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The Bible explains there IS judgment at Christ's return, in that only the Righteous are raised, or changed. The rest of the dead do NOT come to life, until the day of judgment. Your notion of "immediate judgment by God" is in error on several fronts.
    The Bible describes the dead as asleep about 50 times in Scripture.
    Your post is not consistent with the Scriptures ... but it IS consistent with the message in Gen 3:5 "ye shall NOT surely die".
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    It doesn't matter where the "dust" ends up. That is still the grave.

    There is no life during death.
    Isa 38:1 ... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years should be finished.


    The ONLY escape from "dead" is, resurrection!
    The "soul" is a living body;
    Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

    Yes, and Christ's "spiritual body" was a "flesh and bones" body. JUST like the resurrected righteous will be at his coming.
    There is no "pre-trib Rapture". The first resurrection occurs as Jesus is descending to conquer the Nations of this planet. The resurrected/changed righteous RISE to meet Jesus in the atmosphere/clouds, and are with him from that point on.
    The "natural body" is this mortal body. It is what dies. These two passages are BOTH talking about the first resurrection.
    Hogwash. You are merely brainwashed to read it that way. We KNOW Jesus was in hell later that same day.... and for 3 days after that! Paradise is God's restored earth! It doesn't exist until AFTER the 1,000 years, and the lake of fire.


    First, the other parable in that same chapter is not CALLED a parable either, and it starts EXACTLY the same way; "There was a certain rich man..".
    Second, Jesus "did not speak to them without a parable". (Matt 13:4, Mark 4:34)
    Third, you are making up "rules", without one single Scripture for support. A parable is a figurative story, teaching a truth. There wasn't a literal "pearl of great price" that the parable was discussing. There wasn't a literal field with a treasure buried in it, that Jesus was pointing at. Just like, there wasn't literally a "great whore" sitting on water in Revelation 17, or a literal creature that Daniel saw, like a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads. I know WHY you are making up these rules. You desperately NEED to believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus describes what happens in death, because it is the ONLY text that seems to support your theory!!! The fact that the parable isn't actually discussing death is a very inconvenient truth for you.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I have already provided passages that shows one is conscious after death. If you don't believe them, that is your choice.


    ...
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,977
    Christian
    Married
    The "immediate judgment of God" was in pre-Creation. God has always known which sheep are His.

    What happens at various points and stages is the application of God's judgment to various groups of people. But there are people who have died whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life and those who were not. The only difference is when and how they find out about it.

    And whether an individual discovers his pre-destined end early or late will not matter, either after everything has been done.
     
  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The Scriptures don't contradict themselves. The verses you provided simply do NOT show what you think. The verses I have provided are VERY plain, and simple. Dead people are NOT alive.
     
  11. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    ..... says no verse ever.
     
  12. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,977
    Christian
    Married
    Says this entire thread. All the controversy in this thread is about who gets judged and when...even though God knows all along.
     
  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    After Re-reading your post, I am not sure I accurately assessed your meaning. Sorry if I got it wrong. So, let me be more cautious, and ask, are you claiming the individual has no 'free will"? I ask because you used the term "predestined", and were discussing "pre-creation" judgment"... which isn't a judgment ever named in Scripture.
     
  14. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,977
    Christian
    Married
    First, what do you think "free will" means? Is your definition the same as Aristotle's or the same as Augustine's?

    I didn't first use the term "predestined," it's straight out of scripture. What do you do with it? I didn't say "No man can come to me unless enabled by the Father," Jesus said that. What do you do with that?
     
  15. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,675
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    I can't believe anyone would say that!!!! There is not one single solitary dead body that can see or hear a single thing!!! When God speaks---it is. When God said "Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven"---that is what happened. If He says you're green, that is what you will be. His voice is power. It calls forth the dead. You think Lazarus had working ears? He'd been dead for 4 days--he couldn't hear a thing. The reason Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth"--is because if He hadn't called him specifically--every grave there would have opened up.
     
  16. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

    +860
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    This issue can be settled by just reading the book of Lazarus, he was dead for four days and stinketh according to the word of God. So what he reported that happened while he was dead prior to his resurrection would settle the issue for us all.

    Only problem is he was a sleep and did not write a book about his trip to heaven.
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    +210
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Man bears the responsibility to choose, and has the freedom to choose, what he believes, and what actions/works he performs.
    I don't care.

    I didn't claim you first used the term "predestined", I asked about the term "pre-creation". Now that I have defined MY understanding of "free will", are you claiming the individual doesn't have it?
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    And I consider the verses I presented to be VERY plain in what they say, too.

    As for dead not being alive: Non sequitur. Angels are conscious of their actions and yet they do not have a physical flesh and blood body. Angels have spiritual bodies. For Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. So yes, it is not only possible for men to be consciously aware of things by their soul and spirit body after they die, but the Scriptures actually teach such a truth.

    But believe whatever you like. I already presented the verses, there is really nothing left to say. You either believe the verses I presented, or you don't believe them.


    ...
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What about angels? How do they see and hear? Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body.


    ...
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,171
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I believe only those who worship the beast are the ones who do not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). Everyone else has had their name written in the book of life because Jesus is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29) (1 John 2:2). This is why babies are saved. A person's name is blotted out or removed from the Lamb's book of life when they grow up and they fall into sin. This is why they need to repent and accept Jesus and have their name added to the book of life again. Unrepentant serious sin causes spiritual death, separation from God, and their name being blotted out of the book of life.

    While God has declared the end before the beginning, we have to realize that God deals with us in real time. How so? Well, God was going to bring wrath or Judgment upon the city of Nineveh, but soon as they turned from their evil and wicked ways, THEN God turned from His wrath or Judgment that He had originally set out against them.

    So when I say "immediate judgment", I am not talking about some kind of declaration of judgment. For we know God declared Judgment against the city of Nineveh and it did not come to pass. They repented and they averted God's judgment. Does this mean God was not aware of what they were going to do? No. Most certainly not. But God deals with us in real time. Anyways, the "immediate judgment" I speak of is in relation to the "intermediate state" before the "Final Judgment." The Final Judgment is on the New Earth. It is the judgment of God's people followed by the judgment of unbelievers or the wicked. The "intermediate state" is either: Paradise (Before the Rapture) / Heaven (After the Rapture) for God's people, and or it is the Place of Torments (Hell) for the wicked. Note: Hell is not a torture chamber of burning in flames, but it is more like a really bad prison (Where there are possibly long periods of being asleep, in addition to times of being awake). Hence, why I believe in a "partial soul sleep."


    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
Loading...