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Featured From Daniel To Revelation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by A71, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    1260 years From 538 to 1798
    Forty-Two Months | The Length of Rome's Authority

    Time, times and half a time, 42 months, and 1260 days are all the same time period written in different forms. This can be deduced from Hebrew parallelism.

    Every time the Bible mentions this prophetic period it refers to the Papacy. As prophetic days symbolize actual years, this 1260-year period began in 538 AD when the Papacy established itself as the ruling religious power, and ended in 1798 when the Papacy appeared to receive a deadly wound.

    Revelation 11 Commentary

    During the 1260 years
    11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

    1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
    2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
    3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
    4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
    5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.
     
  2. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

    It does not say "at the end of" it says after
    "In the midst of"

    [​IMG]

    The 2300-day prophecy, of which the 70-week prophecy is a small part, was to begin at the command that effected the restoration of Jerusalem. This command went forth under King Artaxerxes Longimanus in the year 457 BC (Ezra 7:12-13).ii

    From this starting point, we can determine all the other time markers of the prophecy. Seven weeks were allotted for the restoration of Jerusalem. True to the prophecy, Jerusalem was rebuilt 49 years after 457 BC, which was 408 BC.
    The 70-Week Prophecy | Daniel 70 Weeks Prophecy
     
  3. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    No, incorrect.

    25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    It says the anointed one will be cut off after 62 (i.e. 69) weeks, not after 62.5 weeks.

    The 2300 day prophecy does not exist. It is a 2300 sacrifices prophecy, 'two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings.'
    There were two daily sacrifices, an evening and a morning one. The 2300 sacrifices prophecy is therefore a 1150 day prophecy.

    The Temple was rebuilt by 518BC, not 408BC....where did you find that nugget?
     
  4. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    The nugget as you call it is detailed in this long post, I have read your long posts I pray that you will do the same.

    Historians know of at least four decrees made by the Persian emperors "to restore and build Jerusalem." Cyrus made one in 538 BC, Darius I made one in 520 BC and Artaxerxes I made two, one in 457 BC and one in 444 BC. Which one is the correct command?

    All of them could fit the description in verse 25. All of them are concerned with restoring Jerusalem to its former function as the Jewish religious capital and trade center. But only one of them fits the time constraints, and this becomes clear when we work out the puzzle of the seventy weeks.

    We have to do a little arithmetic to find the terminus for each of these decrees. The expression "seventy weeks" literally means "seventy sevens," and the year-for-a-day principle applies here (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:4-6). We must multiply seventy weeks times the seven years in a week of years, which equals 490 years. Gabriel, however, says it is only sixty-nine sevens "until Messiah the Prince." Thus, 69 x 7 = 483 years.

    If we add 483 years to each of the dates of the decrees, what do we find? (Remember to add one year for crossing the non-existent year 0.)

    • 538 BC + 483 years = 55 BC. No significant biblical event.
    • 520 BC + 483 years = 37 BC. No significant biblical event.
    • 457 BC + 483 years = AD 27. Jesus is baptized and begins His ministry.
    • 444 BC + 483 years = AD 40. No significant biblical event.
    God made it easy! We have only one choice!

    Verses 26-27 are very specific that the Messiah would work for three and a half years, half of a week, before being "cut off." When we add three and a half years to AD 27, we find that Christ's ministry ended in AD 31, the year of His crucifixion and resurrection.
    Rebuilding Jerusalem (Forerunner Commentary)

    In the fall of AD 27, the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, Jesus was baptized, and at His baptism God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit proclaiming, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    Just recently I've been studying one of the historical 'markers' in the "70 week" prophecy. Perhaps this will be of interest to some of you.

    __________________________________

    In the 3rd chapter of Luke, the Bible gives us a time marker. The 15th year of the Roman Emperor, Tiberius, is specified as the year of Jesus’ baptism, and of His anointing with the Holy Spirit.

    The 15th year of Tiberius is important to us as a people. It is one of the key dates relating to our understanding of the 2300 day prophecy.

    Generally, we teach that “history says” that the 15th year of Tiberius was AD 27, but the reality is not nearly this convenient. History does not “say” as explicitly as we might hope, that the 15th year of Tiberius was AD 27. It is just not that easy to pin-point.

    Now I do not doubt the correctness of the AD 27 date, and yet many historians [today it is “most” historians] do not believe that “the 15th year” was AD 27. There ARE reasonable objections to some of our prophetic teachings, and it worth being aware of these, so that when such objections are raised we don’t simply resort to contempt because we have no rational answers to give.

    Let’s consider a few details.

    Tiberius was adopted by Caesar Augustus when Augustus’ two surviving heirs (Lucius and Gaius) died within 18 months of each other.

    Augustus, suddenly finding himself bereft of an heir, adopted Tiberius in A.D. 4 when Tiberius was 46 years old. Ten years after this, Augustus died (A.D. 14) and Tiberius became Ceasar.

    The year of Augustus’ death and Tiberius’ succession is indisputably fixed at AD 14. (This AD 14 date is doubly confirmed by a Lunar eclipse which was recorded by various Roman historians, Tacitus (Annals, Bk 1, para.28), and Cassius Dio, etc., and the eclipse occurred shortly after Tiberius’ succession. (Lunar eclipses can be dated very accurately.))

    If Tiberius’ ‘year-count’ began in AD 14 (the year in which his step-father Augustus died,) then his 15th year would be AD 29. We teach, however, that the 15th year of Tiberius was two years earlier, namely, A.D. 27.

    Why the difference?

    If the 15th year of Tiberius was indeed AD 29, then our explanation of the 2300 days, and the “70 weeks”, begins to fall apart – in the end it does not work.

    So again, what reason do we have for placing Tiberius’ 15th year at the earlier point, i.e., in AD27?

    A brief explanation is offered as follows:

    The historian Gibbon explains that, prior to his death, Augustus “dictated a law by which the future prince [Tiberius] was invested with an authority equal to his own, over the provinces and the armies.” (Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol 1. p.30.)

    In “the provinces”, Tiberius had equal standing and authority with Ceasar Augustus. But it is worth pointing out, I think, that even while Augustus was still alive and technically holding superiority in Rome, “all Rome, which hated [Tiberius] for his stern puritanism, resigned itself to the fact that though Augustus was still prince [i.e. living Emperor], Tiberius had begun to rule.” (Durant vol.3 p.231.)

    Judea was one of the Roman provinces in which Tiberius’ authority was equal to Ceasar Augustus’, and of course it was in Judea that Luke wrote his account – dating the baptism of Jesus in the 15th year of Tiberius.

    Another relevant point is that Augustus’ health had been failing for some years, and he was “an invalid at sixty [2 B.C.]” (See, Durant vol.3, p.231)). Augustus made Tiberius his co-regent, and in Judea, the reign of Tiberius was dated – not from the death of Augustus (as would normally have been the case) – but from that time, two years prior to the death of Augustus (AD 12), when Tiberius was given legal equality with Augustus .

    Legally, and for all practical purposes, Tiberius was Emperor over the province of Judea, even while Augustus was still living. His reign began in AD 12, and so the 15th year of Tiberius was indeed AD 27.
    One of the "70 Weeks" marker-posts -- A.D. 27
     
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  6. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    Yes OHC, I read the whole post. It is not reasonable to talk with someone if you aren't even listening to them.

    I don't agree with various things as per my previous posts.

    Regarding Tiberius's 15th year I see what you are saying, but the evidence seems too weak for me. Was there any kind of Senate decree or motion that valdiates your notion? All the academic sources accept his 15th year as being AD 29, so if you want to make a serious case for him coming to power two years earlier, it needs more legs in my view.

    Regarding the Artaxerxes decree, this is the standard Church teaching, but it is wrong. We will argue, and I will prove to you it is wrong. :)

     
  7. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Vinsight..yet another nail in the coffin for this 457AD date....this is so serious I have to ask if I am missing something.

    They finished their building by command of the God of Israel and by decree of Cyrus, Darius, and King Artaxerxes of Persia; 15 and this house was finished on the third day of the month of Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.

    Darius's 6th year was 516BC. He came to power 522BC.

    So how on earth do Chuck Missler, Dr Jones, and virtually every other church teacher get Artaxerxes's decrees to sit in 457AD and 446BC?
    Help me here, am I missing something obvious?
     
  8. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of things to discuss here Vinsight.
    Can we discuss one by one?

    The maths shows the captivity to be 608-538BC.
    Jehoiakim was enslaved in 608, which marks the start of the captivity.

    2 Kings 24
    24 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.



     
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  10. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Do you follow the week, year theory, 70 week X 7 = 490 literal years in Daniel 9:24-25?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  11. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This is not complicated, and there is a reason why 490 years is understood by 99% of readers. The House of Judah was sent for seventy years into Babylon as exile.

    Jeremiah 25
    25 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.........
    ......11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
    12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

    Seventy - shib'iym
    Years - shaneh

    Daniel 9
    2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


    Same again. Shib'iym shaneh

    Daniel 9:24
    Shib'iym shabuwa
    Shib'iym = 70 (i.e. The seventy years of exile, referenced already in verse 2)
    Shabuwa = X7 (the multiplication of a punishment by 7, as per Levitical Law, see Leviticus 26. The Hebrew word for swearing is the same as multiplying by 7, so when God 'swears in his wrath', he multiplies by 7).

    So there should be absolutely no confusion whatsoever here. The 70 'weeks', shib'iym shabuwa, are really seventy sevens, which are 490 years.
     
  12. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    Thanks for reading it.
    I doubt that any more information provided by me will warrant a change in your thinking as I am an Historist when it comes to eschatology.
    You need to search it out for yourself to prove if Jesus was baptized in 27 or 29 as that fact will, based on your posts on this forum, destroy some of your beliefs.

    Matthew 7
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    I will provide this
    The following picture is a coin showing Augustus with Tiberius as Caesar (reverse side) minted during the co-regency. The information was provided by 'Classical Numismatic Group.' It reads: Augustus, with Tiberius as Caesar. 27 BC-AD 14. AR Denarius (3.68 g, 7h). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck AD 13-14. CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVI F PATER PATRIAE, laureate head right / TI • CAESAR • AVG • F • TR • POT • XV •, bare head of Tiberius right. RIC I 226; Lyon 88; RSC 2 (Tiberius and Augustus); BMCRE 507; BN 1682-4. EF, toned.

    [​IMG]

    Was Luke mistaken about the year in which John the Baptist's preaching began?
     
  13. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest OHC even were this true, it does not affect my understanding. For the record, I am not discounting your idea completely, but it seems a bit unlikely based on what fairly superficial knowledge I have gleaned.

    Put another way, if my understanding was so dependent on this one fact, I would want it properly verified. However my understanding is bible-centric, and then I let the dates and historical facts slot in to the biblical grid, not vice versa. Here is a short piece from stackexchange.

    Child of God, you asked this same question on the Biblical Hermeneutics site just a few days ago. The evidence I gave there concerning what year was considered the beginning of Tiberius' reign is solid.

    For the sake of those not on that site, here is the evidence I offered:

    Augustus died in AD14. Thus Tiberius began his reign as sole Emperor. The 15th year, then, would have been sometime during the Gregorian calendar years of AD29-30. This is the time most historians ascribe to the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

    Luke took the historian mantle on when writing his gospel. I would suggest he was careful to count from AD 14 because that is when the reign of Tiberius began. Elsewise he might have said the reign of Tiberius and Augustus.

    The Roman Senate named Tiberius Emperor Sept 18, AD14. Before that did he serve a leadership role as Augustus' health was failing? Yes. But His reign did not officially begin until AD14. This is considered the agreed upon beginning of his reign for the last 2002.5 years. Luke would have had no reason to consider the "co-regency" as part of Tiberius' reign because no one else did either. The "15th year" is counted from AD14.

    Augustus died August 19, AD14 In Annals, Book 1, Tacitus reports that, after the death of Augustus, a Roman centurion attempts to report to Tiberius (7) who replies "I have not yet been given command [of the Roman army]." In Book 1.10, Tacitus writes that Augustus had not chosen and seeming did not want Tiberius to be his successor. If Augustus didn't consider them to be ruling together, I don't know why anyone else would.

    Book 1.12 shows that they are trying to name Tiberius as Caesar but he only wants to have partial power. In 13, we read that Senator Haterius says "How long, Cæsar, will you suffer the State to be without a head?" Even though they saw Tiberius as the presumptive Caesar, he was not officially so. The Roman senate recognized Sept 18, AD14 as the beginning of Tiberius' reign.

    Not Augustus nor the senate nor even Tiberius himself considered Tiberius to ever be co-regent. Sept 18, AD14 is the correct date from which to measure the 15 years mentioned in Luke 3:1
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    I disagree, Shabuwa "week" does not represent 7 years, God's word has clearly debunked the teaching of the week/year theory.

    Scripture interprets Scripture do you agree?

    I fully agree that you have proven the dating of antharaxes wrong, that all the dispy's use.

    Can you be corrected on the week/years teaching, let scripture interpret scripture?

    That appears to be your thing.

    Keep it simple?

    Are ya ready and willing to change your mind at the simple truth of God's word?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  15. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    I never said Shabuwa does represent 7 years. Read my post more carefully. It means simply a week of something, or 7 of something.

    Yes, I am willing, are you though?


     
  16. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  17. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  18. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You state there should be absolutely no confusion here whatsoever, the seventy weeks are seventy sevens which are 490 years.?

    How do you get 7 years out of a week?

    God's word teaches 490 days.

    Shaneh (year) isn't used, it's Shabuwa (week)

    Do you believe Daniel 9:24-25 has been fulfilled, or is this future?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  19. A71

    A71 Well-Known Member

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    I don't get 7 years. I get 7.
    The years are in the 70.

    70p X 7 = 490p
    Correct?

    so
    70 years X 7 likewise
     
  20. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    The scripture states 70 weeks not 490 years, correct?

    if it was to mean years, Daniel would have written "four hundred and ninety years" correct?

    Genesis 5:5 states Adam lived "Nine Hundred And Thirty Years" correct?

    Genesis 5:8 states Seth lived "Nine Hundred And Twelve Years" correct?

    it's your private interpretation that states 70 weeks equals 490 years correct?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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