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Freewill?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by hairettic, Dec 27, 2006.

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  1. Evergreen48

    Evergreen48 Senior Member

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    Yes, of course, Paul spoke in general terms of the nation of Jews here. But what has that to do with whether or not His laws had been written in their hearts or not?

    Please try to stay on the subject.


    I am sorry to have to tell you this Soul Searcher, but just because you say it is nonsense does not mean that it is. So, unless you are prepared to explain how that statement is nonsense, then retract it. For who in the world do you think you are that you can get away with simply saying 'nonsense' to anyone's comment, and then just moving on to something else like the comment is not worth any consideration at all.? :doh:

    Hey young man! You may be able to 'whamey' some others into thinking that you are the lord of true understanding, but that won't work with this ole' girl. So either put up or shut up. :)


    Anyone with an intelligent mind ought to be able to pick up on the fact that if it is said that they 'went out of the way', this would indicate that they had formerly been 'in the way'. And if they had BECOME UNprofitable , then certainly they formerly would have had to be profitable.

    What they choose is beside the point. The option is still there for them.
     
  2. swamp401

    swamp401 New Member

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    Romans 14:23 ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
    faith = pistis (greek) moral conviction
    sin = hamartia (Greek) to miss the mark.

    paraphrase through implication = The mark is the moral conviction. To miss the mark would be to ignore the conviction, therefore, to ignore the conviction is to sin.

    Example = my conviction is not to steal, yet through a conscious choice ( free will ) I choose to steal , therefore I have sinned.

    In Christ:thumbsup:
     
  3. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    ....
     
  4. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

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    Look at the Greek it is there and I even gave you the Strong's number where to look it up. The one who is fitting the word to fit their doctrine is the one who has not given one scripture in the NT to back their claims only tradition. God is not calling all men now. Only His Firstfruit.
     
  5. gratis

    gratis Well-Known Member

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    Maybe - if he was directly speaking to someone. However most of the time when it is taught that God says "blah blah blah" that is due to one man's interpretation and is quite often taken out of context.
     
  6. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    Yes, I agree :thumbsup:

    The problem is the freewill arguement seems to always be used by people who preach the do as I say or else doctorines so it seems to be a direct contradiction of the term.
     
  7. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  8. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    That definition makes no sense sis,
    if it is God given freedom why is there punishment for using it?

    If man is going to be eternally tormented or anihilated for using his free will and God knows the beginging and the end then you are saying that God knowing He would have to eternally torment or anihilate man gave them a free will. Thus making God some kind of a monster.
     
  9. swind

    swind New Member

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    It is not my intention to argue. I am sorry if my reply seemed edgy. That is NOT my desire

    Did you take a look at the Amplified translation? It might help in the discussion.

    Here it is: No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to me, and then I will raise him up from the dead at the last day.

    This does not in anyway imply a forceful dragging. That brings as back to (can we resist the Holy Spirit)? We know we can resist natural desires, can we resist God?

    If we can not come to an agreement on what draw means then we are stuck.

    Also I did not use the word "call". I was refering to your comment on "If I be lifted up I will draw "all" men to me.

    My comment had nothing to do with the word call.

    What I said and I will repeat it is that, by your terms in that verse either the Jesus is dragging "all" men to himself or once again you have to change a word.

    I am not the one changing what the bible says. I am quoting 7 differant translation of the bible. you are quoting a Strongs referance. My point was- and a very important point: If none, none of the translations I mentioned choosed to use your word does that not tell us something?

    Also you never responded to the fact that there is much. much more to a word study then just a strongs referance number.

    Even though my question has still not been answered. I will answer yours.

    First, serving the Lord, seeking the Lord and even salvation is not a New testiment revelation. Jesus Christ the lamb, slain before the foudation of the world. Every sacrifice, every offering pointed to the attonment Jesus would make. Read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. I could write 20 paragraphs and keep going. What was the lifting of the brazen serpant, and so on and so on.

    Second, The whole New Testiment screams of choice and free will. "whosoever will" "Whoever thirsts" "Gods will is all would be saved". If it's his will that all be saved then His will is surely not being done. Jesus told us to pray that the "fathers will would be done on earth as it is in heaven". What a useless prayer if His will was being done in referance to salvation.

    The problem is no matter what verse I give you, you could change a word to make it fit.

    But I will try it anyway and see what happens. I am going to list a few so I will not write them all out.

    Titus 2:11
    Matt. 18:14
    Luke 2:10
    Luke 2:31-32
    1 Timothy 2:4
    2 Peter 3:9
    Rev 22:17
    John 7:37
    Romans 10:12-13
    John 1:29
    John 1:8-9
    II Corinthians 5:19

    I could go on and on and on. These are just a few verses that without a doubt shows God is a God of love and desires all His creation to come to repentance. So if there is no free will, or choice in the matter of salvation gods will is not being done. That's impossible! If God has taken choice away from us in the matter of salvation his will would automatically be done. This is just one angle out of many that I could use.


    The problem is you have been taught that there is no free will, so no matter what verse I bring you, you will see it in a differant way. Just as quickly as you dismissed Duet 30:19 "old Testiment" so in your doctrine Old Tesiment isn't good enough.

    If there was no choice in the matter of salvation the New Testiment would not have to have been written. With no choice in the matter it will either happen or not, no need for any explanation of how to be saved. If then you were to say but it is just a means to save those who will be saved. then if a means it has value.

    I repeat, think this through carefully, please. If it takes the gospel to save, then the gospel is the means which God uses to save. If it is a means, it has a value, if it would happen anyway there is no value.

    I can see that you have been trained in predestination which is ultimately where we end up in a discussion on free will.

    The only differance with you is, I think you said in one of your earlier posts that we have choices in other matters not pertaining to salvation?

    Anyway, with all that said if we can't agree on what draw means we are stuck.

    We can always agree to disagree or we can disagree but not be disagreable.

    Love in Jesus
     
  10. swind

    swind New Member

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    Sorry I am new to this game! Post number 89 probably makes no sense to anyone as I thought I was was replying to an earlier post.
     
  11. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    I have only glanced at the amplified version but from what I have saw I am very skeptical of thier rendering.

    the word which they seem to have rendered attracts and draws and gives him desire is a single word. Here are a couple of listings for the word in question.

    G1670
    ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
    helkuō helkō
    hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
    Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

    G1670
    ἑλκύω / ἕλκω
    helkuō / helkō
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to draw, drag off
    2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

    Consider the other places int he NT where the same word is used...

    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

    Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

    Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

    Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

    To me it seems very clear that this word indicates more than just a gentle nudge.

    Now look at the primary meaning of the word draw..

    Draw
    DRAW, v.t. pret. drew; pp. drawn. [L. It is only a dialectical spelling of drag, which see.]
    1. To pull along; to haul; to cause to move forward by force applied in advance of the thing moved or at the fore-end, as by a rope or chain. It differs from drag only in this, that drag is more generally applied to things moved along the ground by sliding, or moved with greater toil or difficulty, and draw is applied to all bodies moved by force in advance, whatever may be the degree of force. Draw is the more general or generic term, and drag, more specific. We say, the horses draw a coach or wagon, but they drag it through mire; yet draw is properly used in both cases.
     
  12. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    The word in question is helkuo/draw and it is only used 8 times in the New Testament.
    They are.

    John 6:44
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 12:32
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    John 18:10
    10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

    John 21:6
    6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

    John 21:11
    11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

    Acts 16:19
    19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

    Acts 21:30
    30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

    James 2:6
    6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

    Now you say draw in Jn.6:44 and Jn.12:32 does not mean drag which we know carries with it a forceful meaning.

    But every other scripture that uses helkuo/draw is done by force, this tells me then that the two scriptures in question must also then carry the same meaning.

    We see Peter drawing a sword and cutting off someone’s ear, I would say that’s pretty forceful.

    We have people drag fishing and this is done by force, you can’t just put your hands on the net and expect it to come into the boat, you have to grab a hold with both hands and drag it into the boat. Again sounds pretty forceful to me.

    We have people grabbing a hold of Paul ( the words caught and took) and dragging him to the rulers and out of the temple. Again sounds pretty forceful to me.

    And finally we have the rich though oppression dragging the poor before the judgment seats. Again sound pretty forceful.

    So now a few questions:

    Do you believe that man wanted his ear cut off or was it done against his will?
    Do you believe the fish wanted to get caught up in the net or is it against their will?
    Do you believe Paul wanted to be dragged before the rulers and out of the temple or was this done against his will?
    And finally do you believe the poor want to be dragged before the judgment seats or is this done against their will?

    Every scripture here uses force, so you can’t change the two in John to mean something else.
     
  13. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

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    No I have not been taught there is no free will; I cannot find it in the Bible; nor do I let my religious bias lead and direct me (I have no religion). Draw, drag are very strong words. Attracts is like saying God might or maybe; God does or He does not. He does not might or maybe anything.

    That you are saying would be true if I believed the way orthodoxy believed; (you got to have freewill or eternal torment would make no sense. Need that justification to send those sinners to hell. What they are really saying is the sin of Adam is greater then the Blood of the Lamb.

    Or as you pointed out: “The lamb that was slain from the foundation of the earth”. That lamb that was slain shows me God had a savior before He had a sinner. God had a plan of salvation long before He had a sinner.

    You said: Second, The whole New Testament screams of choice and free will. "whosoever will" "Whoever thirsts" "Gods will is all would be saved". Where is the word freewill if this is the case? Is it more important that we defend turf then seek truth

    A dead man cannot see, hear, smell, touch feel anything; he is dead. That is especially true to a dead spiritual dead man. With out God’s grace you cannot will, or thirst anything spiritual. And if God wills something no freewill of man can stand against it.

    Sure I use translators and different translations of the Bible but you got to be careful. Which translation of the Bible is right? What reference material or scholar should I believe? What Bible reference is correct? Is it translators or Bible scholars that have the answer; then we would not have 22,000 different denominations. What does the Bible says who we should listen too.

    I Jn 2:27-29
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    The Holy Spirit a Devine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming; one that will lead and guide us into all truth.


     
  14. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I [Divine] have hardened [Intervention] his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:" (exodus 10:1 KJV)
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

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    Rom 9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Notice it is God not man having a freewill.

    (vs. 16, what about having a freewill ? If God wills then man wills means nothing; that is what grace is)
    Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness (freewill) nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? 22 What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction? ) 23 And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)? 25 Just as He says in Hosea, Those who were not My people I will call My people, and her who was not beloved [I will call] My beloved. ) 26 And it shall be that in the very place where it was said to them, You are not My people, they shall be called sons of the living God. 27 And Isaiah calls out (solemnly cries aloud) over Israel: Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant (a small part of them) will be saved [[2] from perdition, condemnation, judgment]!





     
  16. gratis

    gratis Well-Known Member

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    Oh how sadly true.
     
  17. Evergreen48

    Evergreen48 Senior Member

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    God does not judge mankind for using their free will. For the person is as free to do good as they are to do bad. God judges the person according to the deeds that their free will allows them to do, and not because they used the free will which He gave them.
     
  18. gratis

    gratis Well-Known Member

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    That is sort of circular logic don't you think?

    I don't think God goes about trying to trap us in such a manner.
     
  19. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    Makes a lot of sense don't it ;)

    God wants man to do good.
    God give man freewill so that man can do evil if man so chooses.
    God punishes man severly for using the free will in this manner.

    Conclusion, God gave man freewill so that he could have a reason to punish him.:scratch:
     
  20. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
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